Love Conquers All

[Geof Nanto]

You are mixing up rational error with purposeful abandoning rationality. For instance people believe they are entitled to claim a portion of someone else production. They are not acting irrationally, they are acting in error because they are under the impression there is a social contract and that they have accepted this contract and the privileges that go with it.

 

I am not talking of that kind of error. I'm talking about someone who says "I will have it and I mean to have it by any means at any cost to myself or to others".

 

A man who has a psychotic episode is not voluntarily giving up reason. His rationality is in error. This is a very narrow define, because a psychotic has no right to make the excuse that his rationality absolves him from responsibility, he is still responsible for the crimes he commits and the law must exact justice for any victims of his psychosis. A man who takes a powerful drug, goes nuts and kills someone in a fit of blind rage is still responsible for his actions of taking the drug in the first place-here he abandoned reason by not thinking carefully about the consequences of his actions. However, a man who was tricked into taking such a drug would not be responsible for his actions, these would fall on the trickster.

 

You must ascribe to your own moral values, I will decide if I want to interact with a person who has those values. You are judging me, I accept the judgement, but in turn I judge you and your value to me. I cannot foist my values on you, neither would I, nor can you foist yours on me.

 

This is far from myopic, it is objective and you have proven it. Despite claiming moral fluidity you are acting on fixed moral values yourself. You are judging me against those values and finding me wanting-indeed proving that there isn't moral fluidity at all, otherwise you could not call me myopic and lacking in human understanding. Yet you see, I understand very well.

 

You've got far more energy to devote to supporting your conceptual reality than I have for mine. To engage with you means entering into a headspace that’s most nearly meaningless for me. It’s not where I want to be; as your response has reminded me. My learning here is a reminder that such entanglements are not part of my purpose in joining Dao Bums.

 

For these reasons I have no wish to elaborate or defend my previous comment. Though I'm not someone who offers unlimited love, I do feel compassion for you as a person – but not for key aspects of your Ayn Rand / objectivist philosophy.

 

My major ongoing engagement is with the spirit of the land I protect here as a wildlife sanctuary. I've found my peace in the ineffable 'silence' of nature. Living and working within this natural landscape gives me ongoing teachings in the diverse and mysterious wonders of our natural world. That’s where I find my joy and my most deeply meaningful connections. That, and connecting with other people who share similar worldviews.

[Karl]

You've got far more energy to devote to supporting your conceptual reality than I have for mine. To engage with you means entering into a headspace that’s most nearly meaningless for me. It’s not where I want to be; as your response has reminded me. My learning here is a reminder that such entanglements are not part of my purpose in joining Dao Bums.

 

For these reasons I have no wish to elaborate or defend my previous comment. Though I'm not someone who offers unlimited love, I do feel compassion for you as a person – but not for key aspects of your Ayn Rand / objectivist philosophy.

 

My major ongoing engagement is with the spirit of the land I protect here as a wildlife sanctuary. I've found my peace in the ineffable 'silence' of nature. Living and working within this natural landscape gives me ongoing teachings in the diverse and mysterious wonders of our natural world. That’s where I find my joy and my most deeply meaningful connections. That, and connecting with other people who share similar worldviews.

 

I respect that position.

[Golden Dragon Shining]

Europeans at this point have mastered the art of self annihilation if Indian saints or Buddhists want an example to follow. 

 

Edited April 24, 2016 by Sionnach

[Karl]

Europeans at this point have mastered the art of self annihilation if Indian saints or Buddhists want an example to follow. 

 

 

We are certainly getting there. Still clinging to the stupid notion of an EU superstate customs union with open borders, with a booming corporocracy that is trying to milk the population dry and a welfare system that is unsustainable. Too much Government, taxation, cronyism, red tape, all allied to a sense of guilt over the past which must be paid for by self immolation. A rusting hulk with a barely functioning engine and a crew who are deliberately filling the engine room with water.

[Marblehead]

It's not just about what they are, its about who we are.  Using sulfuric acid on other people degrades us; makes us less human beings.  That doesn't mean we play patty cake, it means we follow the rules of war and do our utmost to avoid civilian casualties.

I'm sorry to have to disagree with you on this.  The punishment should fit the crime.  They do not follow any rules of war.  They cannot and must not be treated as war criminals.  They must be treated as evil being who should be removed from the planet.

 

Let me go further then that though.  Let me plead for the lives of ISIS members. 

That won't work with me as I am a believer in free will.  They are willingly committing evil acts and afterwards being proud of their evilness.

 

Sorry again.  An eye for an eye until all mankind is totally blind if that is what it will take.

[Marblehead]

Can you compassionately and lovingly kill someone? I think so. Maybe we're not all advanced enough to do that, but I can envision a situation where it's doable.

Compassionately, yes.  Lovingly, no.

[Karl]

Compassionately, yes.  Lovingly, no.

 

People often ask why I am here, but really you should answer that question too ;-)

 

Exactly, one cannot extinguish a life lovingly. There are no values that can be obtained by killing another person. The most that can be achieved is to retain your own values. War is the same. There are no winners, it's the best that can be made of a situation in which another nation has embarked on a course of action which will result in loss of values for the nation to which the aggression is directed.

 

You can only do so much to dissuade the action of initiation of force, but in the end, any appeasement will only be taken as a sign of weakness.

 

I go further. Any nation that poses a direct, verifiable threat to my life and those of the nation in which I live should have no mercy. Neither the innocent or the guilty should be spared beyond what is needed to accomplish the ending of any further hostility. That means the use of nuclear weapons if no other means will dissuade them.

 

This is not action which is undertaken in a blind of patriotic fervour, or to cheered over, but to be undertaken with utter solemnity and the seriousness of an executioner engaging in a necessary but unpleasant task.

[Marblehead]

Yes, you went further than I would have although, in a good argument, I would likely be pretty much in agreement with you.

 

I still hold that the bombs on Japan were an evil necessity.

[Karl]

Yes, you went further than I would have although, in a good argument, I would likely be pretty much in agreement with you.

 

I still hold that the bombs on Japan were an evil necessity.

 

At one time I would have passionately disagreed with you MH. I joined CND when I was younger and had nothing but contempt for the people who appeared to celebrate the mass destruction of a city and its inhabitants. Now I see it as an inevitable consequence of a vicious war and a people who were entirely prepared to give their lives of themselves, their parent, children and friends in the pursuit of victory. The only way to end it was for the people themselves to force the emperor to surrender.

 

It also showed the world where warfare was headed. That it was no longer troops in trenches, conventional iron bombs and air raid shelters. That prosecuting an aggressive act against a nation was potentially disasterous for those who supported the action through taxes and physical effort at home. It's an unpleasant kind of peace, but a necessary one.

[Old River]

We Make Our Vows Together with All Beings
 

 

Eating a sandwich
At work in the woods,

As a doe nibbles buckbrush in snow
Watching each other,
chewing together.

A Bomber from Beale
over the clouds,
Fills the sky with a roar.

She lifts head, listens,
Waits till the sound has gone by.

So do I.

 

~ Gary Snyder

[Karl]

The animal has no concept of defence, war, or freedom. For the animal the sound is no more or less important than thunder, a falling tree, a chainsaw or the crash of a predator through the undergrowth.

 

Personally I love the sound of a powerful jet as much as I love the wind through the branches of the forest. All is balance :-)

Edited April 24, 2016 by Karl

[blue eyed snake]

I won't comment on the topic of this thread, but I do know what Marble is doing here.

 

he knows a real lot of Chuang Zu and Lao Zi, I remember a very nice thread about Chuang Zu, use the search function and you'll see.

 

To me he's really digging into the philosophical side of Daoism and i find that nice and refreshing and it teaches me things that make me happy.

 

also he seems to have peace and contentment, the thing with getting water and chopping wood. Although I suspect with him it's mainly tending to his garden and ponds, looking at the natural beauty too   That's a most important attainment, many a guy here his pretty fucked up, and with Marble I suspect that his peace and contentment is more then just the wisdom of the aged.

 

In that respect he's a nice example for me, that's the way I wanna grow old (of course it helps that I have the same liking for gardens, ponds and natural beauty, in whatever form)

 

also, he many a time has a kind word for people who post their troubles here and in general gives a light touch to many a thread that's becoming topheavy. And seems to me that is an important thing, to give people the signal that you've read there posts and that you care about them, even when you have no useful answer. It's the internet variant of an arm around a shoulder, a cup of tea or such things.

 

These characteristics make it easy to forgive him his tendencies to butt in everywhere with side-remarks and to be the daily topposter.

 

To me that makes him nice company

 

BES

 

ps: but I do miss his former avatar

 

edit: afterthought, even though Marble likes a bit of goodnatured bickering, his posts give me a sense of harmoniousness, if I remember well, that is an important thing in daoism, to be harmonious ( or balanced   )

Edited April 24, 2016 by blue eyed snake

[dust]

Many people I know have expressed firmly that, should they find themselves in a position of extreme pain, complete paralysis, a 'vegetative' state, or similar -- with no foreseeable end -- they would not want to be kept alive indeterminately.

 

In such a case, to kill them would be an act of love.

[blue eyed snake]

I've stood beside the bed of my mother in a situation like that,

and it was indeed

an act both compassionate and lovingly.

 

It's not death that is to be feared,

but it's cruelty, it's the flowering of the darkness that dwells in all of us that is to be feared and needs to be curbed.

[Karl]

I don't know anyone who fears death, but many who fear dying and the causes of dying.

 

'The flowering of darkness' sounds like an oxymoron. The petals of doom, or the sweet smell of hatred.

[Karl]

Many people I know have expressed firmly that, should they find themselves in a position of extreme pain, complete paralysis, a 'vegetative' state, or similar -- with no foreseeable end -- they would not want to be kept alive indeterminately.

 

In such a case, to kill them would be an act of love.

 

An act of kindness.

[Marblehead]

ps: but I do miss his former avatar

Maybe I'll get around to a different one some day.

[Marblehead]

Many people I know have expressed firmly that, should they find themselves in a position of extreme pain, complete paralysis, a 'vegetative' state, or similar -- with no foreseeable end -- they would not want to be kept alive indeterminately.

 

In such a case, to kill them would be an act of love.

 

My reading of Daoism indicates that suicide is not an acceptable end of the life cycle.  However, that is still an individual choice, isn't it?  Yes, assisted suicide would be an act of love in most cases.

[Karl]

My reading of Daoism indicates that suicide is not an acceptable end of the life cycle.  However, that is still an individual choice, isn't it?  Yes, assisted suicide would be an act of love in most cases.

 

A true act of love would be utterly selfish. So, this is a very interesting situation. The final act is to let the physical perish, yet retain the spiritual value intact. To let a loved one suffer when they do not wish to suffer and you do not wish to have your value destroyed.

 

My wife faced a situation with her father. He was unconscious and on life support. She was asked to consent to the doctors shutting down the life support and she agreed with reservations. My wife is a nurse, she has seen a lot of death and final moments. She trusted the doctors, but when they took away the life support he began fighting for his life and the death was not at all peaceful. The decision she made has haunted her ever since, her memory of her Father is blighted by the unpleasant moments she endured. It was there and then that she gave up any belief in God- she had been a lapsed Catholic from a very religious family, but had not questioned her faith- just put it in the background-until that point.

 

What do we call that ? Was this an act of Love ? Was it rational ? Did she hope to lessen her own suffering ? Were the Doctors too hasty in their beliefs that he Father was willing to give up ?

[cold]

Suicide is so very painful to those who remain.

Assisted suicide and or pulling the plug may not be the blessing expected.

 

 Talk to a pet owner whom has put a beloved pet down, and or the Veterinarian  whom participated.

It weighs heavily.

 

Yes, it goes with the territory, but is a Huge responsibility.

I have had the sad responsibility of putting down many dogs for whom they was no quality of life remaining.

I did not do it easily nor did I lightly allow my Uncle's do not resuscitate order be followed lightly.

 

Don't go gently into that good night ....

Edited April 24, 2016 by cold

[Karl]

Suicide is so very painful to those who remain.

Assisted suicide and or pulling the plug may not be the blessing expected.

 

 Talk to a pet owner whom has put a beloved pet down, and or the Veterinarian  whom participated.

It weighs heavily.

 

Yes, it goes with the territory, but is a Huge responsibility.

I have had the sad responsibility of putting down many dogs for whom they was no quality of life remaining.

I did not do it easily nor did I lightly allow my Uncle's do not resuscitate order be followed lightly.

 

Don't go gently into that good night ....

 

This is the issue. My Father in law was always a fighter, a proud man, a man who worked hard was kind, gentle but never afraid to intercede if needed. He was courageous in spirit and, even when his wife died of cancer he carried on enjoying life. He had a great social life and friends who liked being around him. Then to see him struggle and fight for breath for several long minutes was heart rending. He clearly wasn't ready to give up the fight and couldn't tell anyone that he wasn't ready to go. It always makes me sad to think of it.

 

Funny you should mention animals as I couldn't take our cat to be put down, my wife had to do it. I think I would have just nursed it until it died.

[liminal_luke]

To me there´s a huge difference between "putting a dog down" and most assisted suicide: the person in question has (presumably) made it known that that´s what they want.  I think part of what´s hard about deciding to euthanize a beloved pet is making the decision.  It´s so easy to second guess yourself.  In the case of a human being, you´re not making the decision but rather simply respecting the wishes of your loved one.

[dust]

Karl:

Yes, I would consider it an act of love.

 

I suppose most of us have been in similar situations. Loved one dying, having the choice of whether or not to force it to go on as long as possible.

 

I cannot possibly say if your wife made the 'right' choice or not, but absolutely it was a choice borne of love.

 

 

 

cold:

No, I hope nobody is interpreting what I've said as "It's good to just commit suicide at the first sign of trouble" or "Putting one's dog down is fun for the family."

 

(Leaving general suicide aside,) assisted suicide might indeed have unintended or otherwise damaging consequences; it might be done too early, it might be done with the wrong intentions, etc. But if it is performed out of love for the person concerned, it is an act of killing and of love. That was my only point.

Edited April 24, 2016 by dustybeijing

[zerostao]

i like this thread, we began with op of signified beheading to someone who sent an overture of an idea of love.

the thread title "Love Conquers All"

and after our typical TDB squables we arrive at a place of cozy warm reflective moment.

different factors could be looked at, catharsis being one

and another is Love and not everything can be worded and expressed with analysis.

interesting and restful

 

i agree with marblehead about animals should not be thought of as isis membership like

there is a lot of love in animals too and they have their own struggles trying to make their way

dealing with humans a critical one

Edited April 24, 2016 by zerostao

[Captain Mar-Vell]