Mawangdui texts

[whitesilk]

From page 105 of the Taoist Classics, volume one, the collected translations of Thomas Cleary,

 

"The oldest known written versions of texts in the Tao Te Ching tradition are the two manuscripts on silk discovered in 1973 at Mawangdui. The scripts used, as well as the format of the book, suggest that these were versions of the classic as studied in the Legalist tradition. The are entitled Te Tao Ching, "Courses in Virtue and the Way," reversing the generally known order of the courses, and are not divided into chapters."

 

It struck me that Lao-Tzu or Lao Tan, living in either the Shang dynasty (1766-1122 B.C.) or the Chou dynasty (1122-256 B.C.), would be the author of a text, generally unknown for some 3,000 years. Looking back over the notes, I noticed that on page 104 of the above mentioned volume this is written,

 

"The attempt to trace different elements of the roots of Taoism leads to question of date and authorship of its texts. At the outset, it should be noted that there are many difficulties in establishing precise dates and authorship in early Chinese literature, for a number of reasons. One reason is that much of the early literature was destroyed long ago by the ravages of censorship, war, and time. Another is that date and authorship in ancient Chinese religious and philosophical literature are traditionally regarded as more important symbolically than literally."

 

The gap in time concerns me. 3,000 years is a long time for a text to survive unnoticed. I just read the wikipedia article on Mawangdui, and it seems I am just misinterpreting the notes, and the Tao Te Ching and other taoist texts existed before 1973. It's just that the oldest version was found in 1973. Any insight?

Edited April 25, 2016 by whitesilk

[dust]

(edit: removed bit about topic being in wrong forum)

 

To be as clear as I can...

 

The oldest extant version (oldest known surviving text) is a part of the Guodian slips, containing 33 of the verses from the text we now know as the Dao De Jing. It was found in 1993, but was probably written (and then buried in the tomb) around 300 BCE. The Mawangdui slips date from around 168 BCE -- quite a bit later than Guodian.

 

So the Mawangdui texts are not the oldest known versions, but they are the oldest surviving whole physical texts that are almost identical to the Dao De Jing as it has been passed down through the centuries to us.

 

Neither of these, of course, are claimed to be the oldest versions of the text -- only the oldest surviving physical versions that we have discovered. There might be more buried out there, somewhere, waiting to be found.

 

The oldest versions of the verses of the text were probably not written, but spoken/chanted, and probably date from hundreds of years BCE. We'll never know exactly when they were written.

 

It seems unlikely that a single man called Lao Tzu / Laozi ever wrote the text as a book -- much more likely that verses of wisdom of a particular school of thought were naturally collected over some decades/centuries and eventually came to form a recognizable volume of verses which was later given a name (and an author was attributed to them).

 

(This authorship topic is controversial and I foresee people chiding me for bringing it up, but...hey ho..)

Edited August 31, 2016 by dustybeijing

[Marblehead]

I think your conclusion (last paragraph) is valid.  Other sources are available, it is just that they have also been edited and this destroys the original text. 

 

Yes, it would be great to find an original dating to at least the time when it was supposedly first written.

 

There are many who are interested so any leads will be investigated.

 

 And remember there is the Guodian that dates to the third or fourth century BCE.

[Marblehead]

I requested this thread be moved here and it has been.

[dawei]

Ironically enough, MB and I once had a PM exchange on the MWD....  here is part of our exchange but updated with a few items:

 

 

Dawei:

 

Here is what I found out:
- D.C. Lau did one in 1974 but the criticism is that he didn't stick to the MWD enough... so enough of him.

- Boltz: There was some comments of his having written one but I only find a journal article... so let's journal that.

The most promising and available:
Mair: Tao Te Ching: The Classic of Integriry and the Way

 

But here online:

 

[The] File [on the Cosmic] Track [and Individual] Dough[tiness]:  Introduction and Notes  for a Translation of the Ma-wang-tui  Manuscripts of the Lao Tzu [Old Master] 

I have one from Taiwan which is chinese-english. Very articulate english. But this is the one I mentioned early which translates Dao as "divine law".

 

The Old Master Modernized Laws Divine and Human (Chinese-English Edition)

 

 

 

 

MB:  “ And I found a Red Pine translation of the ttc and immediately grabbed it as I have never had access to his translation.  And guess what.  He used the Ma-wang-tui texts.  Copywrite date is 1996and first printing in 1997.

 

He translates from a Shamanic point of view so I am sure I will have problems with some of his translations.  But I still want to read it. “

 

 

Dawei:

 

On Amazon:  Red Pine

 

 

 

Hendrick:   MWD Translation

[leth]

The text has been known throughout the ages and transcribed over and over again, most well known is the so called Wang Bi  version which seems to have been the basis for most of the more recent transcribations. Though the difference between the Wang Bi version and the version found in Mawangdui is rather small.

 

The Mawangdui was just the oldest known source at that moment.

 

However, several parts of the text was found in another older source more recently, though not all chapters that we know from the Wang Bi or the Mawangdui versions are part of that recent find.

 

P.S. The newer source is the Goudian version. Might be worth adding.

Edited August 28, 2016 by leth

[Albion]

From page 105 of the Taoist Classics, volume one, the collected translations of Thomas Cleary,

 

"The oldest known written versions of texts in the Tao Te Ching tradition are the two manuscripts on silk discovered in 1973 at Mawangdui. The scripts used, as well as the format of the book, suggest that these were versions of the classic as studied in the Legalist tradition. The are entitled Te Tao Ching, "Courses in Virtue and the Way," reversing the generally known order of the courses, and are not divided into chapters."

 

It struck me that Lao-Tzu or Lao Tan, living in either the Shang dynasty (1766-1122 B.C.) or the Chou dynasty (1122-256 B.C.), would be the author of a text, generally unknown for some 3,000 years. Looking back over the notes, I noticed that on page 104 of the above mentioned volume this is written,

 

"The attempt to trace different elements of the roots of Taoism leads to question of date and authorship of its texts. At the outset, it should be noted that there are many difficulties in establishing precise dates and authorship in early Chinese literature, for a number of reasons. One reason is that much of the early literature was destroyed long ago by the ravages of censorship, war, and time. Another is that date and authorship in ancient Chinese religious and philosophical literature are traditionally regarded as more important symbolically than literally."

 

The gap in time concerns me. 3,000 years is a long time for a text to survive unnoticed. I just read the wikipedia article on Mawangdui, and it seems I am just misinterpreting the notes, and the Tao Te Ching and other taoist texts existed before 1973. It's just that the oldest version was found in 1973. Any insight?

 

 

Dear White Silk,

 

  I strongly recommend that you look at THIS book:  'Daoism Excavated--Cosmos and Humanity in Early Manuscripts'  by Wang Zhongjiang.  

 

 https://www.amazon.com/Daoism-Excavated-Manuscripts-Contemporary-Scholarship/dp/1931483620/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1472396882&sr=1-1&keywords=Daoism+Excavated

 

 

It was published in 2015, and it's got all of the latest research on latest (earliest) manuscripts of the Laozi, plus many more ancient Daoist manuscripts.

 

The research information about ancient copies of the Laozi is near the back of the book, but it's there.

 

I think that you'd like it a lot!   

 

Peace,  Differently Abled Daoist

 

P.S. You can buy it *cheaper* at Alibris Books, then you can at Amazon.com.

Edited August 28, 2016 by DifferentlyAbledDaoist

[whitesilk]

Thanks for the good recommendations!

 

Since this post and now, I have lightened my load of books. It would be not logical for me to get more.

 

I came upon the realization that I was being greedy with knowledge.

 

Please feel free to comment on my other topics.