How would you define 'De'?

[Kirran]

De is a tricky one - I felt I had a good understanding of it, but it left.

 

Looked at various explanations, but they were a bit scattered!

 

What would you guys say De is?

 

Thankyou!

[Marblehead]

Any explanation is going to be scattered.

 

Here is my scatter-brained suggestion.

 

Firstly, the word "De" is normally translated as "Virtue".  However this is misleading.

 

We are not talking about concepts like the virtuous woman or man.  It really has little to do with the character traits of the human animal.

 

What we are talking about is how something behaves, what its natural processes are.

 

The De of Dao is to do what it does.  That is, the things and non-things behave in their natural manner.  The Earth does the same.  Yes, we see earthquakes, tornadoes, hurricanes, volcanos, and on and on and these events cause the death of many people.  The Earth holds no blame.

 

For (wo)man's De to be true (s)he must do what is natural for them.  This is the tricky part.  Are there people who are "naturally" evil?  I will leave the question open.  But as long as the person is being true to their nature (not learned behavior) then they are following their De.

[Kirran]

Interesting! Thanks Marblehead. Are you at all familiar with the concept of 'dharma'? I am picking up a great many parallels, and they may even be the same thing.

[Marblehead]

Are you at all familiar with the concept of 'dharma'?

No.  I try to keep my philosophy as simple as possible.  However, when one speaks to a concept that I am not aware of I can most of the time relate it to my Taoist understandings.

[Michael Sternbach]

The word virtue (as De is usually translated) originally had a different meaning from how it is commonly understood today: It meant a power. This seems to be applicable here: De is the power, that is, the action of Dao.

[Kirran]

No.  I try to keep my philosophy as simple as possible.  However, when one speaks to a concept that I am not aware of I can most of the time relate it to my Taoist understandings.

 

Well then, allow me to relate a brief story:

 

"A sage, seated beside the Ganges, notices a scorpion that has fallen into the water. He reaches down and rescues it, only to be stung. Some time later he looks down and sees the scorpion thrashing about in the water again. Once more he reaches down to rescue it, and once more he is stung. A bystander, observing all this, exclaims, “Holy one, why do you keep doing that? Don’t you see that the wretched creature will only sting you in return?” “Of course,” the sage replied. “It is the dharma of a scorpion to sting. But it is the dharma of a human being to save.”

 

Does dharma, as advertised here, relate to your understanding of De?

 

The word virtue (as De is usually translated) originally had a different meaning from how it is commonly understood today: It meant a power. This seems to be applicable here: De is the power, that is, the action of Dao.

 

Thankyou for your response Michael

 

Yeah, virtue didn't seem quite right, somehow - what does it mean to be the action of Dao? If Dao is not static?

Edited April 27, 2016 by Kirran

[WisteriaWinds]

Doing what works right now.

[Michael Sternbach]

Kirran,

 

Dao could indeed be thought of as static; it's the eye of the storm, so to speak. But it unfolds as De, which is dynamic: The unceasing action of opposite forces, whose prototype is yin and yang.

[Kirran]

Kirran,

 

Dao could indeed be thought of as static; it's the eye of the storm, so to speak. But it unfolds as De, which is dynamic: The unceasing action of opposite forces, whose prototype is yin and yang.

 

Hmm, OK, this is making sense to me.

 

I have been beginning to renege on my opinion that Brahman and Dao are different.

 

A beautiful analogy, by the way. Really captures it.

[Geof Nanto]

The best brief description of de I've come across is from A. C. Graham:

 

“the capacity to respond without reflection according to the Way.”

[Michael Sternbach]

Hmm, OK, this is making sense to me.

 

I have been beginning to renege on my opinion that Brahman and Dao are different.

 

A beautiful analogy, by the way. Really captures it.

 

Glad you like it.

 

Having looked into many metaphysical systems over the years, I am of the opinion that they generally describe the same truths in different ways.

[doc benway]

Here is a brief excerpt from "Revealing the Tao Te Ching" by Hu Xuezhi that I find intriguing -

 

"The Tao gives birth to all universal things and is also contained within all universal things. The Tao that is contained within is called the Golden Mean or Te (in Chinese). These terms refer to the functioning presentation of the Tao in all universal things, which functions much like the source of spring or the root of a tree. 

 

Without this root source, the spring water will run dry and the tree will become withered. The Golden Mean is also called Primeval Nature or True Heart. It is the state that exists when desires and acquired sentiments such as happiness, anger, sorrow, joy, and fear, have not yet come into being. It is a state of complete, perfect stillness."

[Marblehead]

Well then, allow me to relate a brief story:

 

"A sage, seated beside the Ganges, notices a scorpion that has fallen into the water. He reaches down and rescues it, only to be stung. Some time later he looks down and sees the scorpion thrashing about in the water again. Once more he reaches down to rescue it, and once more he is stung. A bystander, observing all this, exclaims, “Holy one, why do you keep doing that? Don’t you see that the wretched creature will only sting you in return?” “Of course,” the sage replied. “It is the dharma of a scorpion to sting. But it is the dharma of a human being to save.”

 

Does dharma, as advertised here, relate to your understanding of De?

Yes, that story has been played many different ways.

 

To your question though:  I have to say no.

 

Putting one's self in harm's way is not De of Dao.  Putting an object in the water for the scorpion to climb upon would be the natural thing to do.  This way the scorpion is saved but the Sage is unharmed.

[Old River]

Pardon my etymological geekiness:

 

Funny, this word "virtue" in English.  It comes from the Latin virtus which is related to the Latin vir, meaning "man."  The word literally mean "manliness" in the sense of "strength."  The word also was the Latin translation of the Greek word arete, meaning "excellence."  The word arete was a key word in Stoicism (which has nothing to do with the modern usage of the word any more than Epicurean, Skeptic or Cynic meant in the ancient world), and via Cicero, and then Seneca, the Latin word virtus came to mean not strength on the battlefield, instead signifying inner strength.  

 

This is why Arthur Waley, for example, translates De as "power."  There is an older connection between "virtue," "power," and "integrity" that is largely lost today (the word "virtue" often seems to imply a kind of Victorian prudishness nowadays, sadly).  There really isn't any decent word in English to use for De, and so it can be easily misleading.

 

Ok, all that aside...  I don't have my Red Pine DDJ translation handy, but his books has several glosses for each chapter from other Chinese commentators-- and its very helpful.  Understood ontologically, if Dao is the emptiness (latency) out of which the ten thousand things arise, De is the power of Dao manifesting itself in the world when the (fixed, limited) self gets out of the way.  De flows through the sage via wu wei.  In other words, De is Dao actualized.  De is the integral link between the sage and Dao. 

 

In more concrete terms, take a violinist who knows her instrument so well that she has internalized all the techniques to the point that she is no longer aware of them as techniques.  She does not try to play, she just plays, and the melody comes effortlessly, spontaneously, without forethought or self-consciousness.  There is no longer a limited self playing the violin, rather musician and violin are no longer distinct.  This moment, as it occurs, is De. 

[Kirran]

Thanks for the responses everyone. This had cleared it up pretty well for me. Old River, your explanation was especially nice.

 

Yes, that story has been played many different ways.

 

To your question though:  I have to say no.

 

Putting one's self in harm's way is not De of Dao.  Putting an object in the water for the scorpion to climb upon would be the natural thing to do.  This way the scorpion is saved but the Sage is unharmed.

 

Well, OK! But I suppose I meant the use of the term - I don't think it's meant to be advocating what's sensible, just pointing out the concept. It's the saving that is the dharmic action, not the admittedly foolish way of trying to go about it

[dawei]

The word virtue (as De is usually translated) originally had a different meaning from how it is commonly understood today: It meant a power. This seems to be applicable here: De is the power, that is, the action of Dao.

 

The best brief description of de I've come across is from A. C. Graham:

 

“the capacity to respond without reflection according to the Way.”

 

Along this line, I've like the concept of efficacy.  More recently I read something which was explaining it with 'potency'.

 

A single definition of the word is not fair to the meaning so explanations like above work for me. 

[dwai]

De is a tricky one - I felt I had a good understanding of it, but it left.

 

Looked at various explanations, but they were a bit scattered!

 

What would you guys say De is?

 

Thankyou!

De is your True Self. It is non-different from Dao.

[Kirran]

De is your True Self. It is non-different from Dao.

 

Atman = Brahman? (if you're familiar with the terms...)

[dwai]

Atman = Brahman? (if you're familiar with the terms...)

Yes (albeit some will claim "Te" is virtue and about morality etc). According to the grandmaster of the system I practice "Temple Style Tai Chi and Dao Gong", "Te" is a copy of the "dao". It can be accessed via meditation and tai chi/neigong/daogong and once we connect with Te we get Dao. 

Edited April 28, 2016 by dwai

[Taoist Texts]

  In other words, De is Dao actualized.   

 

Is not everything Dao actualized?

 

De is your True Self. It is non-different from Dao.

 

thats just substituting one unknown with 2. ok 3.

[dwai]

 

Is not everything Dao actualized?

 

 

 

thats just substituting one unknown with 2. ok 3.

When the Self is known, it is not unknown anymore. Then Dao is not unknown anymore. But then labels and words and explanations won't matter

[Taoist Texts]

De is a tricky one - I felt I had a good understanding of it, but it left. 

Looked at various explanations, but they were a bit scattered!

 

 

 

子曰：“由！知德者鲜矣。”    

 

The Master said, "You, those who know virtue are few."

 

 

 

 

 

 

What would you guys say De is?

 

De is virtue.

 

 But then labels and words and explanations won't matter

 

it seems that Then Is Now. already.

 

[blue eyed snake]

living from the heart, but as in: the heart living through you.

where heart stands for emptiness, one-ness, thereby generating compassion, unconditional love, 

 

Not even in my own language i can find words for it, but i feel i've come a little closer to the subject