Magic and psychology

[Radiant]

anyone with at least a spark of intelligence

 

Hm...I don't care. Does that make me not intelligent? Care to make any more sweeping generalizations?

 

Edit: From reading your posts, I notice that you tend to invalidate other realities. Maybe someone else is lacking intelligence and flexibility?

Edited July 4, 2016 by Radiant

[Radiant]

Try again.

[FraterUFA]

I do look around for what happened to the G.D. or other hermetic orders, such as Cases BOTA - and one wonders if it all went down the drain? are there any intact practice lineages upheld in a more formal yet healthy way? I mean apart from individuals doing their own magical work? looks like as soon as migicians try to form an order these days it ends in tears and confusion...

 

are there any orders that are functional in your understanding?

 

You may be interested in this thread:

 

http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/38495-builders-of-the-adytum/?hl=bota

 

The FLO is the spiritual successor to the BOTA, but my present thinking is that Paul Foster Case left the seeds of his method behind in his writings (and particularly, the correspondence lessons) that can be extrapolated back into a complete system. It is clearly detailed in the final seven major Arcana. The only thing that is missing is the initiator/teacher, though that person will come along at the right time for one who is ready.

 

UFA

Edited July 8, 2016 by FraterUFA

[Nungali]

Given the right circumstances, I do not see why that could not be the case.

 

Those with a enough knowledge, understanding and wisdom can be capable of developing such new and valid systems. Basically the system is the same throughout all times and cultures as it is based on human processes, societal developments and cultural modifiers. If one knows what that system is and maps it with a valid map according to the specific aims of the 'sub-culture' ( clan, secret society, etc  ) within the society. 

 

Its a level of 'mastership' , which starts with being able to develop a or a set of valid rituals, right up to  whole new systems. They should achieve their gnosis, enlightenment, realization, whatever and then deliver their 'jewel' to the 'world'.   Steiner is an example, early (pre- Crowley) OTO initiate / Theosophist - developed Anthrophosophy and its many 'spin offs'  (medicines, education system, bio-dynamic agriculture, eurythmy ,  etc . )  

[Nungali]

... and I agree with you about the 'internal teacher' . 

[RigdzinTrinley]

I might do the correspondence course with the BOTA material - you sparked my interest

[curiousbignose]

On 5/3/2016 at 11:52 PM, Nungali said:

Then there are the secret underground ones  -  some of them are really  good - the ones that have split off from a bonafide good tradition with good people running them (I am not talking about  secret small made up  groups with people with no experience in this )   I was in  one of those once.   Great stuff !  

 

Do you have a pointer to a path towards finding them?

 

I've been drawn to these paths for over a decade, but had to prioritise studying / work. Recently picked up B.O.T.A. and am quite satisfied with the density of the information and the practical work so far. But I am also drawn to some ritual work (not involving invoking spirits, which is why the Crowley schools are perhaps not for me), e.g. I've added daily LBRP (which is a GD instruction I found as a cautious practice for beginners in tarot, before learning about B.O.T.A.) and continued some qigong energy work which seems to do good.

 

I've also checked out the forum stage of AMORC and align well with their texts so far, but am put off a bit by their active recruitment. In my understanding this is not right for occult paths as you need to be drawn towards them, otherwise the wrong people will come. Even freemasonry, which is quite public advocates against it. (So I don't expect that you tell me the direct name and phone number of such organisations)

Edited October 6, 2023 by curiousbignose

[Nungali]

12 hours ago, curiousbignose said:

 

Do you have a pointer to a path towards finding them?

 

Well, I said I was in one and that was 2016 ... so I have been out of that field for some time .

 

the thing is , with 'sub-groups ' even in a larger group or 'order' , the 'local' groups can be very different .  In the organisation I was in , my local group was really good , and a bit different from the mainstream . One further north , in the same tradition was rather  shocking  and after some complaints and an inspection tour, it was closed down .  The group south was in a city and although fairly good had a totally different culture and outlook .  That should not really matter , but .... people are people .  You can also get 'good' and 'bad' monasteries , temples, churches  in the same traditions .

 

So, in one way , it depends on your location .

 

 

12 hours ago, curiousbignose said:

 

I've been drawn to these paths for over a decade, but had to prioritise studying / work. Recently picked up B.O.T.A. and am quite satisfied with the density of the information and the practical work so far. But I am also drawn to some ritual work (not involving invoking spirits, which is why the Crowley schools are perhaps not for me), e.g. I've added daily LBRP (which is a GD instruction I found as a cautious practice for beginners in tarot, before learning about B.O.T.A.) and continued some qigong energy work which seems to do good.

 

Well, if you are ' quite satisfied '  , plus what you added  there ^ ,  seems like you have enough to go on with .

 

You do realise LBRP although a 'banishing' ritual is actually all about invoking  .... 'spirits'  ... as you said .   One may not call those forces spirits , but f you talk about  'invoking spirits' , that means the 'higher orders'  ..... if one does not include the higher orders in their definition of 'spirits' but means 'lower order spirits' than that process would be an evocation .

 

Maybe you meant 'evoking  spirits is not for you  ? 

 

 

 

12 hours ago, curiousbignose said:

 

I've also checked out the forum stage of AMORC and align well with their texts so far, but am put off a bit by their active recruitment.

 

AMORC started by Spenser Lewis who seemed only to have , at it's instigation , a MInerval degree in the OTO , and some unusual charter to bea bale to run a 'group of Minervals' .. which is very strange, even in OTO circles ; a Mineral is a guest of the Order  ( first degree is full member ) and is considered  a 'gestation period ' of 9 months before the  first degree 'birth ' ritual . Also it serves as time for the candidate , as a guest of the Order to access and see if they want to go on further .

 

To me that seems a reasonable plan , if you wanted to  seek a group for initiation , a 9 month trial check out period , to me , would seem essential .

 

In any case , Lewis appears to gave departed , and taken a collection of  ripped off stuff with him and created his AMORC .  Other 'Rosicrucian'  'mail order' groups  have then split off from AMORC .   The thing is, if one persevered and stayed within the OTO curriculum, they would have eventually found a real Rosicrucian  degree  ( 5th ) . . . instead of having to make one up themselves   out of  much lower degree materials . 

 

 

12 hours ago, curiousbignose said:

 

 

 In my understanding this is not right for occult paths as you need to be drawn towards them, otherwise the wrong people will come.

 

That depends on the groups focus ; again with the OTO , they declare  every man and  every woman has a right to the first three degrees .  For me , with  groups like AMORC , its not the ' here we are , we have something good to offer, that will improve you and society ' ... that seems a natural inclination if you value and see worth in your tradition ... its more the  money making marketing of some of these  groups  ... they are using the tradition to run a money making business . 

 

 

12 hours ago, curiousbignose said:

 

Even freemasonry, which is quite public advocates against it. (So I don't expect that you tell me the direct name and phone number of such organisations)

 

 

What's your location ?

[curiousbignose]

Quote

Well, if you are ' quite satisfied '  , plus what you added  there ^ ,  seems like you have enough to go on with .

 

You do realise LBRP although a 'banishing' ritual is actually all about invoking  .... 'spirits'  ... as you said .   One may not call those forces spirits , but f you talk about  'invoking spirits' , that means the 'higher orders'  ..... if one does not include the higher orders in their definition of 'spirits' but means 'lower order spirits' than that process would be an evocation .

 

Maybe you meant 'evoking  spirits is not for you  ? 

 

Thanks for this, I have read a few interpretations of what I am doing there with curiosity (including yours now), that it is not just a banishing ritual. And sure, I may just be ignorant about spirits here

 

Btw, I've performed the Middle Pillar few times after some weeks of daily practice and the effect on me and apparently my surroundings was quite interesting. These experiences seem useful and were part of the early stages of the GD (and also seem to have some parallels to energy work like qigong?), but are to the best of my knowledge not included in the B.O.T.A curriculum. I know Case was against the Enochian magic performed in the GD and given the overall quality of his writings I do believe that he had some good reasons. What I do not know is whether he was against integrating any form of regular performative active ritual, given that he joined an order like the GD as someone who was already a freemason.

 

Maybe I'm inpatient here: With B.O.T.A. I'm looking down half a decade of perhaps good and valuable instruction a lot of people seem satisfied with, with some practical meditative work (which genuinely seems valuable) and the occasional group ritual they offer. Meanwhile I've been drawn towards ritual work for long time, and have been advised multiple times against reading so much (correspondence courses are a lot about reading), and that I should instead "get into practice". Just not sure that the correspondence courses cut it for me due to this.

 

Quote

In any case , Lewis appears to gave departed , and taken a collection of  ripped off stuff with him and created his AMORC .  Other 'Rosicrucian'  'mail order' groups  have then split off from AMORC .   The thing is, if one persevered and stayed within the OTO curriculum, they would have eventually found a real Rosicrucian  degree  ( 5th ) . . . instead of having to make one up themselves   out of  much lower degree materials . 

 

That depends on the groups focus ; again with the OTO , they declare  every man and  every woman has a right to the first three degrees .  For me , with  groups like AMORC , its not the ' here we are , we have something good to offer, that will improve you and society ' ... that seems a natural inclination if you value and see worth in your tradition ... its more the  money making marketing of some of these  groups  ... they are using the tradition to run a money making business . 

Their membership fees are indeed on the steep side, also considering how they are known to dribble information. I am also not sure about how well I align with the vibes of some of their public personell in their videos. I do align with some of the texts, but perhaps this is because it is occult knowledge in simple and accessible form. That being said, I am still inclined to continue, also given that they have more group activities than B.O.T.A., but then again I don't trust the results of active advertising (which one should suspect is tied to money indeed) for an occult order. 
 

Quote

What's your location ?

 

Will send a PN. 

 

Thank you very much for your detailed response despite me posting on a decade-old thread
 

Edited October 7, 2023 by curiousbignose

[Nungali]

6 hours ago, curiousbignose said:

 

Thanks for this, I have read a few interpretations of what I am doing there with curiosity (including yours now), that it is not just a banishing ritual. And sure, I may just be ignorant about spirits here

 

Btw, I've performed the Middle Pillar few times after some weeks of daily practice and the effect on me and apparently my surroundings was quite interesting. These experiences seem useful and were part of the early stages of the GD (and also seem to have some parallels to energy work like qigong?), but are to the best of my knowledge not included in the B.O.T.A curriculum.

 

MP and LBR I would consider essential .  For me, leaving such things out is like  telling people to study electrical engineering  without demonstrating the need  for  insulation , I mean, that fine if all you are going to do is read about things and never get out the armchair .  I think it is certainly  like ' qiqong '  ... if one id getting the energy flow right  - and not just saying things and  moving the arms and body around .  There is so much in  the traditions that is like that , the 'assumption of God Forms'  for example - a type of 'body Mudra'  ( and again with right breath work and visualizations ) .

 

I know Case was against the Enochian magic performed in the GD and given the overall quality of his writings I do believe that he had some good reasons.

 

What where they ?   I worked pretty deep with Enochian , I took over 90 hours painting a set  of rather stunning tablets . I found the rituals potent and powerful.  We did a group working with it for a while , I found it one of the most effective systems to 'get out there '   and had vivid 'trips'    moreso than with other things , excluding psychedelics and psychoactive .

 

 

 

What I do not know is whether he was against integrating any form of regular performative active ritual, given that he joined an order like the GD as someone who was already a freemason.

 

Some groups are like that , Theosophy for example . At one stage it was loosing members to groups that taught / performed ritual as that is what people wanted and it was not in Theosophy . In order to address this Theosophy developed 'Co-Masonry' , a form of 'Masonry' , theosophical and open to women .

 

 

Maybe I'm inpatient here: With B.O.T.A. I'm looking down half a decade of perhaps good and valuable instruction a lot of people seem satisfied with, with some practical meditative work (which genuinely seems valuable) and the occasional group ritual they offer. Meanwhile I've been drawn towards ritual work for long time, and have been advised multiple times against reading so much (correspondence courses are a lot about reading), and that I should instead "get into practice".

 

Well, ritual is designed to get into and effect the unconscious , while reading and study mostly impacts the conscious mind .  But the deep roots  of our choices, modes of being and resultant actions  come from the unconscious , also  'deep spiritual' contact / revelation  often comes into the unconscious  and 'illumination' / revelation is the process of that 'stimulated unconscious' breaking through to the conscious mind .

 

 

 

Just not sure that the correspondence courses cut it for me due to this.

 

What do YOU want out of a correspondence  course ?

 

Their membership fees are indeed on the steep side, also considering how they are known to dribble information. I am also not sure about how well I align with the vibes of some of their public personell in their videos

 

My group NEVER charged money for teaching or initiations .... if personal costs where there , the candidate should pay  for those

(say for example ,they is given a robe or some valuable object in the ritual , to keep , they  should pay for that  ) some pay fees to keep the organization going.  I have NEVER charged anything for teaching , in this field or with martial arts or bamboo construction .... zip ... nada ... nothing !  I have seen too much corruption associated when money comes into it  ... and especially when a business is made out of it .  ... and, if you realise what most people are like and what they want and they are attracted to ... its 'glamour'   ... which relates to a 'flash exterior' and a type of hypnotic fascination/adoration ... so they seem weird on video because  they know this and are trying to 'work it' ... or they    ....   just be dorks   

 

. I do align with some of the texts, but perhaps this is because it is occult knowledge in simple and accessible form. That being said, I am still inclined to continue, also given that they have more group activities than B.O.T.A., but then again I don't trust the results of active advertising (which one should suspect is tied to money indeed) for an occult order. 

 

You know ... depending on what people are after .... we can post a  curriculum right here    
 

 

Will send a PN. 

 

Gotchya ..... Oh , I see you are living at  ...

 

Spoiler

 168 Dayton Ave.  Edmonton,   Canada .

 

 

Spoiler

... thats a joke guys  .

 

 

 

Thank you very much for your detailed response despite me posting on a decade-old thread
 

 

[Dedicated]

These topics came up in my recent dash of research. My Dad was a psychologist, so I had heard about Jung, however my Dad studied it when Freud was the main psychologist taught, not Jung yet. Then I saw 'A Dangerous Method' after meeting a Women who instigated this film needs to be made. Learning Jung was a sadist put me off him for a while. Then looking into Alchemy I learnt Jung had kept the teaching intact, which renewed my faith in him.

Magic is a broad term.

I don't think Crowley was the reincarnation of Eliphas Levi, having read the History of Magic.

Edited October 8, 2023 by Dedicated

[Nungali]

14 hours ago, Dedicated said:

These topics came up in my recent dash of research. My Dad was a psychologist, so I had heard about Jung, however my Dad studied it when Freud was the main psychologist taught, not Jung yet. Then I saw 'A Dangerous Method' after meeting a Women who instigated this film needs to be made.

 

I had not heard of that . I just looked it up, sounds interesting . 

 

 

Quote

Learning Jung was a sadist put me off him for a while.

 

Oh ?  I didnt encounter that mentioned in what I read about it . It did mention  '  rudimentary bondage and spanking'  , but  would   that  make him a 'sadist '  ? 

 

Quote

Then looking into Alchemy I learnt Jung had kept the teaching intact, which renewed my faith in him.

 

Could you explain that please ?   What teaching and what do you mean he 'kept it intact'  ?

 

Quote

Magic is a broad term.

 

Certainly ... for many . Like also the term  'spirit' .

 

 

 

Quote

I don't think Crowley was the reincarnation of Eliphas Levi, having read the History of Magic.

 

 

Ha har ... probably not .   I think he claimed a few previous incarnations ....   he currently incarnates as  an Indian peasant widow with 7 children .....   ( that'l teach him !   )         

[curiousbignose]

On 8.10.2023 at 12:05 AM, Nungali said:

What where they ?   I worked pretty deep with Enochian , I took over 90 hours painting a set  of rather stunning tablets . I found the rituals potent and powerful.  We did a group working with it for a while , I found it one of the most effective systems to 'get out there '   and had vivid 'trips'    moreso than with other things , excluding psychedelics and psychoactive .

 

He probably expressed his concerns in multiple places. I remember reading an excerpt from a different text posted somewhere, from which I understood Cases stance was that he'd rather want to err on the side of caution. Now I have found these two letters (in a Reddit discussion and through some sleeplessness):

Letter 1

 

And particular here from point 5:

1933 Letter to Israel Regardie

 

So he was cautious about the Enochian magic, but not warning against ceremonial in general. 

 

Thank you very much for your responses and thoughts once more. 

Edited October 9, 2023 by curiousbignose

[Dedicated]

Hiya Nungali, 

 

I was learning about Sacred Secretion from a cool teaching on YouTube with Sarah Elkhaldy and there it was said that Jung taught internal Alchemy in one of his teachings, and paid respect. I have since looked for that briefly, but moved on to Daoism. I can look into it further, or share more? Sarah knew more than other teachers about the subject and didn't rattle on about what everyone else does.

 

In the movie 'A Dangerous Method' it is clear. But I don't actually believe labels need be permanent, that people can change and grow. Or our understanding of sadism. But not my cup of tea, I'm much too relaxed for that 

Edited October 9, 2023 by Dedicated

[Nungali]

      

 

[helpfuldemon]

Man has Free Will, we have the options of performing along with the Virtues and efforts of Labor, choice, Law and desire.

 

Every God, religion and Government has killed in the name of Justice and Desire. If one wants to prove to their God or Governor that they deserve to live, they will defend in whatever manner is allowed, and with the right to defend the Will of Heaven, killing is allowed. Christ said that if they do not take me as king, bring them before me and cut off their head. Is the Bible eternal and unchanging as they proclaim? Or are his elected Governors allowed to change it?

 

The entire scope of existence is formed around the contents of Chaos, as it extended out into its proper Order. Within the contents of Chaos, are the elements, which are used to define the surroundings and purpose of all that is. Philosophers and Magicians examined the properties of these named the objects, images, and personalities. How they all combine and react causes our state of existence. This is drawn all the way into the body of Man and woman. Man and Woman become and do a mixture of these properties and ideas and perform duties to build civilization and bring Law. Men and Women lead invent and build discover and create Laws to govern. As they invent and lead and create, they name more properties, and more words to represent this process. Eventually they perform a deed that Men and Women honor and those are the Immortals.

 

According to the combination of the Self, as in line with the Immortals, Spirits and Divine leaders and Gods, our bodies, minds and words are influenced to act.  We are the vessel of these, and we make our decision based upon our interpretation of these.

 

This is a co-creation of God and Man.

 

The Gods love when you avoid words that diminish or condemn.

 

The Law is Do What Thou Wilt. In this, do what you Love, in the way you Love.

 

Nothing is guaranteed.

 

When you invoke the word God or any Holy name of God, expect that the God hears you. If you curse, you may be Cursed, if you Bless you may be Blessed. We unite with meaning as we identify what is righteous.

 

All is sacred, find your Order and purpose, follow the Word, find its meaning, and declare your Will.

 

I suggest that the perfect prayer to meditate on is “I'm sorry, this is Chaos, I apologize, and I forgive” Then you will come to your moral Truth.

 

The only Chaos in Man.

 

 

 

Edited October 10, 2023 by helpfuldemon

[helpfuldemon]

Take care of the defenseless and fallen.

[helpfuldemon]

GOD is WAR LOVE IS THE LAW  DO WHAT THOU WILT IN THE NAME OF LOVE< LEAVE NONE BEHIND< THAT IS THE SOLDIERS CODE>

[helpfuldemon]

The measurement is how much you harmed life, and how much you defended life, and you will be asked to justify the harm against life and law.

[helpfuldemon]

God hands the sinner over to the Demons.  They can do what they like to them.  A bottom man is one of these sinners.  God will send you to them unless you confess and repay.

[Nungali]

hey HD ... can you restrict your  snippet one line or long rant posts to threads YOU started ?

 

You are welcome to post in threads I started as long as its contextual and reasonable discussion .

 

You have multiple of your own going to do this in .

 

( Edit ;  Oh .... I just saw the suspension log ,    this won't be happening again then . )

Edited October 10, 2023 by Nungali

[Dedicated]

On 09/10/2023 at 8:02 AM, Nungali said:

Could you explain that please ?   What teaching and what do you mean he 'kept it intact'  ?

 

Heya Nungali,

I was reading a book I bought the other day and found a quote relating to this. The book is The Elixir and the Stone. "...such...neo-Hermetic thinkers as C.G. Jung..." Michael Baigent and Richard Leigh

Edited October 11, 2023 by Dedicated

[Nungali]

13 hours ago, Dedicated said:

Heya Nungali,

I was reading a book I bought the other day and found a quote relating to this. The book is The Elixir and the Stone. "...such...neo-Hermetic thinkers as C.G. Jung..." Michael Baigent and Richard Leigh

 

 

I remember that book.  Many years back , I read it with some naive excitement .   I never guessed back then that I would find myself working  a form of alchemy and  producing 'elixirs and stones'   for the Aussie BD agricultural market .   I have retired from that now though .

 

I'll offer this to you as you might find it interesting ,  it covers a similar area to The Elixir and the Stone  ( being ;  " an alternative history of the intellectual world. Perhaps for the first time it puts into their true context those shadowy alchemists and magicians who have haunted the imaginations of people for centuries. " ... as the critics said of it ) , but this IMO tops it  - I think its rather essential reading to get a grip on the tradition ;

 

Patrick Harpur ,   'The Philosopher's Secret Fire - A History of the Imagination '

 

" The visionary tradition of spirits, gods, and demons continues to subvert our rational universe, erupting from the shadows in times of intense religious and philosophical transition. In this dazzling history, Patrick Harpur links together fields as far apart as Greek philosophy and depth psychology, Renaissance magic and tribal ritual, Romantic poetry and the ecstasy of the shaman, to trace how societies have used myths to make sense of the world. ...

 

... Patrick Harpur is an acclaimed author, best known for his philosophical works, which include The Philosophers' Secret Fire: A History Of The Imagination and Mercurius: The Marriage Of Heaven and Earth , the latter of which, after being out of print for several years (and fetching a small fortune on auction sites like eBay) has finally been re-released in a paperback edition. '

 

( - Damn .... I got an old copy  of 'Mercurius' sitting in a  book box in the shed ... looks like I just missed out on a 'small fortune'  . )

 

I also recommend his 'Daimonic Reality'  .

 

[ " Lake monsters, Yetis, UFOs, crop circles, guardian angels and visions of the Virgin Mary can all be described as apparitions, and this book weaves together an account of them. It argues that only in the last three centuries or so, and only in Western culture, they're as lively as ever. But, the author suggests, they can be made intelligible again by appealing to a different world-view. Three of the chief models for understanding mind and world are Jung's "Collective World", which is used to illuminate the links between the apparently disparate experiences being dealt with." ]

 

... where the author is coming from :

 

'

In his book, Daimonic Reality, Harpur argues that the human psyche extends beyond the confines of the physical human body, and that it may in fact be a part of our reality. He also notes that during most of human history, civilization has had another, "shadow reality" of folklore, except the current society which is strongly attached to the material. The following is a quotation from Daimonic Reality:

Hitherto, I have taken "soul" to refer to two distinct, but unrelated, images. Firstly, soul is synonymous with the daimonic realm itself, the realm of Imagination, and is really an abbreviation for the collective Anima Mundi, or World-Soul. Secondly, soul refers to whatever images the World-Soul itself uses to represent itself. Archetypally, this image is usually feminine and appears, for example, as a female daimon or goddess who, as Jung would say, "personifies the collective unconscious." Now the third use of "soul" refers to the image by which we, as individuals, are represented in the World-Soul.

Traditional views of human nature have always allowed for (at least) two "souls" of the latter kind. In ancient Egypt, for instance, they were known as the ka and the ba; in China, hun and p'o. One of these souls inhabits the body and is the equivalent of what, faute de mieux, we call the ego. I will call it the rational ego to distinguish it from the second soul, variously called, in other cultures, the shadow-soul, ghost-soul, death-soul, image-soul and dream-soul, for which our culture has either the word "soul" or else no word, because it is not generally believed to exist. However, it does exist and can be thought of as an ego, in the sense that it confers identity and individuality. It enables us, that is - like the rational ego - to say "I." But it is an ego, not of consciousness, but of the unconscious; not a waking, but a dream ego; not a rational ego, but an irrational ego. I will call it the daimonic ego. Like the rational ego, it has a body - not a physical one but a dream-body, a "subtle" body such as daimons are imagined as having, an "astral" body as some esoteric doctrines say: in short, a daimonic body. "

- Wikipedia

Edited October 11, 2023 by Nungali