meditation and its side effects

[mantis]

maybe this is just me but the thoughts have been in my mind for some time now. does meditation and spiritual work itself make you more loving? i've noticed i'm more compassionate for both genders - male and female. is this the true nature of man?

 

to be quite frank i keep having these gay thoughts when i am only attracted to women. i read somewhere (not to sure) that due to the fact that the right side of the brain is less used in western culture men are more emotionally repressed. could you call this that?

[林愛偉]

maybe this is just me but the thoughts have been in my mind for some time now. does meditation and spiritual work itself make you more loving? i've noticed i'm more compassionate for both genders - male and female. is this the true nature of man?

 

to be quite frank i keep having these gay thoughts when i am only attracted to women. i read somewhere (not to sure) that due to the fact that the right side of the brain is less used in western culture men are more emotionally repressed. could you call this that?

 

 

One associates men with loving and compassionate thoughts as ..."gay-minded". Actually it is fine. Also embracing the loving compassionate mind through wisdom is very important if one is to keep a balance energetically and in mind as well.

So that would mean, if you have begun to realize loving feelings, thoughts of compassion and togetherness, that doesn't mean you need a physical act to balance them, nor does it mean you need to consider yourself as homosexual. None of those would balance out anything.

All you need to do is realize how to utilize the mind of compassion and togetherness without associating it to preferences/views. Thoughts of love and whatnot for men and or women are only that way because we associate views to them. Other than that, they mean nothing.

 

So, meditation will allow a more patient, compassionate and loving mind to manifest, yet it is the association we have in mind towards those things which makes us think they are a certain way.

 

:-)

 

Peace,

Lin

[Taoist81]

Or a simpler explaination could be that you are bisexual. Most sexuality, human or animal, exists on a spectrum. Your meditation is simply "settling" your the turbulent waters of your ego, and allowing you to observe things without the cultural bagagge normally associated with homo- or bisexuality. It is nothing to be afraid of, nor is it a requirement to act on every thought. It would be a good idea to just observe your feelings from an unbiased perspective though. It is only by facing what is within you that you can begin to deal with it.

[林愛偉]

Or a simpler explaination could be that you are bisexual. Most sexuality, human or animal, exists on a spectrum. Your meditation is simply "settling" your the turbulent waters of your ego, and allowing you to observe things without the cultural bagagge normally associated with homo- or bisexuality. It is nothing to be afraid of, nor is it a requirement to act on every thought. It would be a good idea to just observe your feelings from an unbiased perspective though. It is only by facing what is within you that you can begin to deal with it.

 

 

Bisexuality is still a view of mind. It is a condition of the mind, and is thus a view, thoughts used to associate what is what in one's experience of mind. It is by no means one's original nature, only a state of mind. Genetics is not an excuse for it either, for what forms one's body is mind. It is only a state of mind, and if there is an attachment to those conditions, then the result is experiencing a mind of bisexuality, not one's original nature.

 

basically, you are right in one aspect, that it is mental baggage, yet it is still a mental condition "baggage", ,and it shouldn't be viewed as a personality trait, only a state of mind... conditions being moved by wind that will eventually pass...OR get attached to, and acted upon resulting in the experience of what one views it to be.

 

Peace,

Lin

[Mal]

does meditation and spiritual work itself make you more loving? i've noticed i'm more compassionate for both genders - male and female. is this the true nature of man?

 

to be quite frank i keep having these gay thoughts when i am only attracted to women.

 

Yes, I think meditation does make you more loving. I understand what you mean by "gay" thoughts. I do feel much more love towards my friends male and female. It can make you uncomfortable when you just want to reach out and hug someone. Men don't hug men in my culture

 

Don't worry, perhaps think on the differences between "love" and "sex"

 

As to bisexual. Perhaps. But I don't know why anyone would want to have sex with a man, we look silly naked. I'm always grateful that the girls just don't fall down laughing

[Taoist81]

 

Bisexuality is still a view of mind. It is a condition of the mind, and is thus a view,

 

So is the "view" that bisexuality is a state of mind.

 

thoughts used to associate what is what in one's experience of mind. It is by no means one's original nature, only a state of mind.

 

That really depends on who you are speaking to. In some traditions bisexuals are held as the true nature, being the ones who held both the masculine and the feminine in balance. The ten thousand things hold yin and embrace yang, to the Tao there is no difference. Man with his "views" came up with morality not the "original nature".

 

Genetics is not an excuse for it either, for what forms one's body is mind. It is only a state of mind, and if there is an attachment to those conditions, then the result is experiencing a mind of bisexuality, not one's original nature.

 

Who needs an excuse? Although you may want to tell the gay penguins that they are going against their true nature. Are you feeling a little attached to strict heterosexuality ther Lin? : )

 

basically, you are right in one aspect, that it is mental baggage, yet it is still a mental condition "baggage", ,and it shouldn't be viewed as a personality trait, only a state of mind... conditions being moved by wind that will eventually pass...OR get attached to, and acted upon resulting in the experience of what one views it to be.

 

Peace,

Lin

 

Sure, everything is a "state of mind". In the end the only thing that really isn't is somewhere between compassion and indifference. But, for those living in a dualistic reality, the really don't need any more fundamentalists telling them that the love (both emotional and physical) they feel for someone of their own sex is somehow a sin, or contrary to their "original nature" or damaging to their karma. They already get enough of that from the Xtian fundies. Nature has and embraces heterosexuality, homosexuality and everything in between. At least the Xtians can say "well the only reason animals do that now is because of the fall." The Tao may not always be followed by man, we like to be distracted and all, but animals tend to go right along in their path (some of them eat meat even!). When you stop and see reality as it is, and accept that what you've learned about "x" may be wrong, you see that there is much less difference in "reality" that there is nonduality.

But, you know that, you are simply expounding on the morality that goes with your particular aspect of the Path, and that's fine.

[林愛偉]

So is the "view" that bisexuality is a state of mind.

That really depends on who you are speaking to. In some traditions bisexuals are held as the true nature, being the ones who held both the masculine and the feminine in balance. The ten thousand things hold yin and embrace yang, to the Tao there is no difference. Man with his "views" came up with morality not the "original nature".

Who needs an excuse? Although you may want to tell the gay penguins that they are going against their true nature. Are you feeling a little attached to strict heterosexuality ther Lin? : )

Sure, everything is a "state of mind". In the end the only thing that really isn't is somewhere between compassion and indifference. But, for those living in a dualistic reality, the really don't need any more fundamentalists telling them that the love (both emotional and physical) they feel for someone of their own sex is somehow a sin, or contrary to their "original nature" or damaging to their karma. They already get enough of that from the Xtian fundies. Nature has and embraces heterosexuality, homosexuality and everything in between. At least the Xtians can say "well the only reason animals do that now is because of the fall." The Tao may not always be followed by man, we like to be distracted and all, but animals tend to go right along in their path (some of them eat meat even!). When you stop and see reality as it is, and accept that what you've learned about "x" may be wrong, you see that there is much less difference in "reality" that there is nonduality.

But, you know that, you are simply expounding on the morality that goes with your particular aspect of the Path, and that's fine.

 

 

Animals are still subject to their causes and conditions. Just because animals do things, doesn't mean it is proper. Nature may embrace, but it isn't nature embracing, it is the conditions of the mind playing out. There is nothing fundamental about it..lol It is as it is. This isn't the only life, physical body, living beings have. Things have been playing out for thousands, millions of years beyond what we all know things to be. So if we see a male tiger licking up on another male tiger, it doesn't mean it is natural, it just means they are just subject to their own conditions which they are ignorant to.

 

Funny thing is the path I am "on" has no moral grounding, has no virtue and has no guidelines. When one knows the mind, they realize it is conditions which one sees through. When those are dropped, the conditions are no longer used, and there is clarity.

 

The true nature of things isn't a state of mind, there are no conditions dictating how things should go. The

ten thousand things hold yin and embrace yang, but that is within duality, and duality is not the original nature of things.

 

not attached to heterosexuality..lol just sitting here with a big old chan stick, slapping the mind into the all pervasive "Now" that is still a state of mind hoping it falls and dissipates altogether...lol

 

Far from moral dogma

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

P.S.- Dao, Buddhism...it is all cultivation and all can work with it...yet few get to the core...

[mat black]

To understand sexual preferences, as well as any other 'preference', i think it essentially comes down to realising the difference between causitive nature and inherant nature doesn't it?

 

To live in a dualistic reality, (of mind) is still to be bound by causitive nature, right? ....which due to habit and ignorance, can very easily be confused with ones inherant nature.

So most humans being bound by causitive nature, think "this (fill in the blank) is who i really am", and based on that, formulate an identity.

 

It can be difficult to see through because we might have been following the same habits for many lives, but essentially if it's dualistic in any way, (i think) it's only still causitive nature. (results of karma)

 

In the Vimalakirti Sutra it says:

"..........these flowers do not stick to the bodies of the Bodhisattvas! This is because they have eliminated contructual thoughts and discriminations........Therefore the flowers do not stick to the bodies of these Bodhisattvas, who have abandoned all instincts"

 

This seems to be saying that, through wisdom and insight, one can come to the understanding that instincts and preferences and the identities that go along with them, however pleasurable are still only due to causitive nature.

 

By contrast, i think, by observing that which comes and goes without reacting:

 

"The sage knows what is true reality,

And sees all conditioned things as

empty and powerless"

 

This seems to be describing inherent nature.

Edited November 16, 2007 by mat black

[cloud recluse]

...

 

to be quite frank i keep having these gay thoughts when i am only attracted to women....

 

You still havent qualified what you mean here. Are you discovering a sexual aspect previously unknown in yourself , do you fell emotions are effeminate, or are you using the term 'gay' in a lighthearted sense ?

 

Regards, Cloud

[joeblast]

its made me more loving and compassionate towards all forms of life - race, gender, species aside. love doesnt necessarily imply anything sexual.

[mantis]

no i meant gay quite literally. i have a lot of odd thoughts so i'm thinking it's just something passive. i've had thoughts of killing people for no reason and robbing places ect so i'm assuming this is no different.

[joeblast]

I think the important thing is to not attach yourself to thoughts that arent of your core self. When you learn to disregard them, sooner or later your mind starts seeing them as a mere annoyance and cuts down on their frequency and duration. If you process them and/or develop attachments to them, then they are bound to perpetuate and grow.

[sheng zhen]

no i meant gay quite literally. i have a lot of odd thoughts so i'm thinking it's just something passive. i've had thoughts of killing people for no reason and robbing places ect so i'm assuming this is no different.

Ive seen this in many people who meditate, especially those that have just started dedicate themselves to it, and Ive had this problem myself. I dont know if my explanation applies to you, this you have to decide for your self. Ill just share my experience.

 

When we meditate we open up a lot of things in ourselves. It can be subconscious memories or reaction patterns, auric field and other energy systems, and a lot of strange things. The aggressive thoughts can be subconscious expressions of unresolved stuff, but can also come because we get very sensitive to other people and their subconscious field, energy systems and other subtle stuff. This can be from people on the subway, collective consciousness or whatever.

 

If we go into the world with the openness we have in meditation, without the ability to recognize what is what, or as joeblast say; what is our core self and not, there will be a lot of things in us that we dont feel is our own.

 

So one antidote to this is to close the meditation in a proper way. We should not close ourselves completely, but make shure the auric field and our consciousness is firmly grounded in our selves, or our core self. In the same way that we have skin to protect our body, we need protection in our energy. One simple visualization is to see a blue protective sheet, like skin just outside of your aura before you go out of meditation. This is often enough to take care of the most subtle inner (or outer) environmental noise we have to deal with.

[mantis]

thanks for the advice i'll try that when i meditate.

[doc benway]

As you progress in meditation, the thoughts settle and deeper, buried, hidden stuff comes to the surface. This is completely normal and can include frightening memories or images, visual and auditory hallucinations, long forgotten memories - sometimes traumatic, and, certainly, unexpected feelings like sexual desire or violent impulses that might be harbored somewhere in the depths. This is why it is so valuable (critical!) to have a competent teacher/guide.

 

My teacher nearly always tells me to observe these thoughts/images and recognize that they are not "me", not who "I" am, but rather thoughts created by everything that has gone to make up this organism's psychological characteristics. The more stuff that comes up, the more you come to understand that "you" are none of these things. "You" simply experience (notice) these thoughts and images. "You", in fact, underlie all beings and similarly, "you" and "I" (which are the same) experience(s) the thoughts of us all but only one at a time...

 

Meditation absolutely seems to result in an increased experience of feelings like love and compassion unrelated to sexuality. As the underlying unity of awareness begins to take hold, how can you not feel more loving and compassionate feeling towards eachother. At the fundamental level, gender and sexuality is irrelevant.

 

It's certainly possible that latent homosexuality, bisexuality, or simply normal homosexual fantasies in a heterosexual individual might be uncovered as well. I believe that every human has thoughts and impulses at some level relating to heterosexuality, homosexuality, violence, etc... Each of us express them to different degrees based on an infinite complexity of factors. Who of us is to say what is normal? Normal simply means average. To be normal is to be similar to the majority. It does not mean to be correct or OK or even optimal. That is only for each individual to determine through self realization. Perhaps there may come a time when you choose to develop a closer relationship than ever before with someone of the same gender, perhaps not. Disengage from any anxiety about it as anxiety is simply projecting your past thoughts about this into the future. Rather, just be here, now.

 

If you have a teacher, talk to them. If you don't, you might consider getting one. Try not to attach to these thoughts too much. Recognize that "you" are not your thoughts. "You" are not homosexual. "You" are not heterosexual. "You" are much beyond anything that can be put into words. Words are simply convenient labels for behavior.

 

We can never define what a person (or anything else for that matter) is. It is beyond words and beyond our capacity for thought. We can only describe behavior and characteristics. Be with your thoughts without fear for they are not who you are nor can they harm the true you. Go into them deeply and experience them fully. Generally they will then lose power over you and drift off like all the rest.

 

If significant anxiety, depression, fear, discomfort, etc.. develop as a consequence of awakening new feelings during meditation, don't hesitate to seek out the help of a competent instructor, guide, therapist, or the like. It can be very serious stuff when you become quiet enough and it can be difficult to sift through it alone.

 

Good luck!

 

Quick edit to say that I have a slightly different perspective from some of the comments above. I think that absolutely everything is a part of the self in the grand sense and that you can't block anything out or exclude anything. Eventually, every bit of it has to be dealt with, sooner or later. I think (for me at least) that you need to be open to it all and get help as needed to work through it until you transcend it all... I think I'm saying the same thing as joeblast in a slightly different way.

Edited November 16, 2007 by xuesheng

[mantis]

you know as odd as this seems that is exactly what i was thinking, xuesheng. "this is probably what you talk about with your master..." and "these are just thoughts." feels much better talking about it though than remaining cooked up in my head. thanks a lot everyone for the replies.

[Fu_dog]

It's very interesting that thoughts of a physical (sensual) love resulted from meditation. The love experienced during mediation is spiritual, with no relevance to male/female.

 

Your question,however, was regarding a "side effect" of meditation, and so perhaps a clearer mind simply sees things in all aspects as they really are. It's always beneficial any time you see things more clearly, or have a realization of reality that wasn't there before.

[mantis]

it's not really during meditation. let's say for example i'm trying to go to sleep, then i'll start getting bombarded by a flood of homo thoughts which to be quite frank disgust me and then i cannot sleep. during the day too i'll be in the middle of doing anything and it'll happen. it's pretty lame.

 

a thing contributing to this is i've never had a girlfriend - this has been bugging me a lot. since i haven't had sensual contact with a woman my mind is dabbling around for the worst. i was too shy to speak to girls before and now finding a decent girl is damn near impossible, so i'm basically in a dead end. how i wish i had a girlfriend too. i often fantasize vividly about having one and talking to her and hugging ect. sigh.

Edited November 17, 2007 by mantis

[Todd]

I second Xuesheng's comments, especially his "quick edit".

 

Basically we are one with everything, and that means everything. Anything that is supressed (not allowed into the light of awareness) naturally comes into our awareness. Its not really talked about much, but I feel that this is a large part of what was being conveyed by the legend of Maya coming to Buddha in the form of demons and temptations as he sat under the Bodhi tree. There is a a shadow side to us all that comes forward to be seen. It goes pretty far... basically as "horrible" a thing as you can imagine, that will come up to be seen. The key is to realize that this process is normal, and that it is something that pretty much anyone who goes really deep goes through. There is nothing wrong with it, and the less that you resist or indulge it, the smoother the whole thing will go. If there is a teacher whom you resonate with, then by all means consult him or her. It is important that you resonate with him or her though, since a bad teacher is worse than none at all.

 

In my opinion, the best thing that a teacher does for a student is to help him to relax into an entirely natural process.

 

You seem to have already tapped into this view, but just to reinforce it, everything that comes up is you in a way, but none of it defines you. It is an expression of what you are, which is more than you can ever imagine. You can relax knowing that there is nothing that you can, or need to push away.

[mantis]

yeah. i'm not sure when exactly the thoughts started, it's been about 3-4 days now. i really think the fact i haven't had a girlfriend is whats drawing this out for me. on top of this i am not a homosexual and having these thoughts bothers me greatly.

 

on another note - does this mean i'm progressing on my spiritual path? i very rarely lie (very rarely) and this has come somewhat naturally. i only meditate for like 6-10 minutes at max but every time i do meditate (which is twice a day) i see white light inside (not visualizing) and i barely have thoughts flowing at all.

 

here is an article i read on "jackinworld" (LOL)

 

http://www.jackinworld.com/library/articles/strfant.html

 

while i don't have any of those fantasies as those are really extreme (wishing to be another male, masturbating to images of males, etc) it's somewhat relaxing that this is fairly normal. most of my thoughts usually include kissing and sometimes anal penetration. the first somewhat falls into the category of the article that it could be a social need (no girlfriend or intimacy) but i'm really dumbfounded on the second. things going up your butt hole do not feel good.

 

i really feel that men in western society are really screwed over in a sense. you aren't really taught much about anything (quite literally) which leads to tons of repressed thoughts and emotions.

 

anyways, i really thank all of you for sharing your advice and opinions on this subject. i think it's quite possible more people experience this and don't like talking about it due to the nature of how we are raised in western society when i think it is really good bringing this all up.

[Todd]

I can't say what triggered this for you, or even what is happening with you, for sure. But I can describe something of what having these base energies triggered within me was like. It came pretty suddenly, and once it started, it just went on, popping up during meditation and throughout the day. It included massively violent thoughts, toward others and myself, and various different sexual scenarios, including homosexual (though that wasn't the bulk of it for me). My response to this was basically to let whatever rose up run through me. I didn't push anything away, or really react to anything as being gross or disgusting. I also didn't take any action based upon them. It was similar enough to any other sensation that comes up during meditation or during the day, that I just reacted the same way that I do with anything else. There is a physical energy that is released as well. I let that run through me too. It helped that I was on retreat with my teacher when this started, and he mentioned the process in a dialog with another student, with the only advice being to not resist it, and sharing his experience with it in the past.

 

It took about three weeks before things settled down for me. That was basically accepting everything that came up and not resisting it at all. Not grabbing onto to it either though.

 

I feel that these energies are within all of us, and always try to come up if we repress them. They can shape our behavior to the extent that we try to push them away. It up to any of us, no matter where we are on spiritual path, how to react, or not react to these energies. Its powerful stuff, but just more stuff too.

 

 

There is also the thought that what we repress becomes twisted. The base energies are actually quite healthy, and don't come out as needless violence or sexual excess except when we suppress the healthy aspect of them. That thought can lead to judgment though. I certainly can't say what is or is not healthy. No one can. We find our own way with that.

Edited November 17, 2007 by Todd

[Spectrum]

There is also the thought that what we repress becomes twisted. The base energies are actually quite healthy, and don't come out as needless violence or sexual excess except when we suppress the healthy aspect of them. That thought can lead to judgment though. I certainly can't say what is or is not healthy. No one can. We find our own way with that.

 

Nice catch. Go in G to G3t 1T 0UT.

 

Spectrum

[mantis]

if anyone was curious the thoughts have died off. thanks for the advice guys.

 

for anyone who may develop this my advice is:

 

talk about it.

read about it.

learn about it.

 

chances are a lot of people go through it, as was my case. if you repress them you may think they're your true nature and call yourself a homosexual or a freak, when that may not be the case.

Edited November 19, 2007 by mantis

[joeblast]

keepin it in perspective