Absolute Self vs. Personal Self

[3bob]

it takes supreme effort to reach a threshold, yet to pass that threshold or cross over is not done by the same effort - in the sense that it takes a will to truly surrender a will... thus any talk about kicking back like some kind of la-di-da neo-whatever-expert could be misleading...

Edited May 5, 2016 by 3bob

[Tibetan_Ice]

I have noticed an association between 'giving up' followed shortly by 'awakening', can anyone explain the mechanics of this?

From "Mindfulness, Bliss and Beyond" - Ajahn Brahm

This remarkable event can be explained using the simile of the donkey and the carrot. Many years ago in southern Europe, villagers would use donkey carts for transportation. Donkeys, being notoriously stubborn, had to be tricked into pulling the heavy carts. The owner would attach a long stick to the cart, so that it extended a couple of feet in front of the donkey’s head. A string was tied to the front end of the stick, and a big juicy carrot tied to the end of the string. Motivated by desire to eat the carrot dangling on the end of the string just in front, the donkey would move forward and thereby pull the cart. The carrot would also move forward, at the same speed. Thus the owner would get his donkey to pull the cart without wasting too many carrots.

 

Buddhist donkeys, however, know how to get that carrot! They run like hell after that carrot, putting maximum effort (viriya) and concentration (samādhi) into moving that cart as fast as they can. Of course, the carrot moves just as fast, always remaining a couple feet in front of the donkey’s mouth. At this point, the Buddhist donkey lets go of desire. They suddenly stop! Because of momentum, the carrot swings even further from the donkey, arcing up further than it has ever been before. But this donkey has faith (saddhā) and wisdom (paññā) and so waits patiently with mindfulness (sati), since effort and concentration have done their work. Patiently observing, the donkey sees the carrot swing away to the extreme, and then sees it begin to swing back again.“Rising and falling,” notes the donkey. Soon the carrot has fallen back to its usual position but, oddly, it is now traveling toward the donkey and at some speed. Practicing patience, the donkey does nothing. It is the carrot that does all the work as it comes closer and closer. At the right moment, the donkey simply opens its mouth and the big juicy carrot comes in all by itself. Crunch! Munch! Mmm! That tastes sweet! This is how donkeys who know the Dhamma catch the carrot.

 

In Ven. Ānanda’s story, he had pursued the carrot of nibbāna so energetically throughout the night. But however hard he chased that carrot, full enlightenment was always just out of reach. When he gave up and stopped to take a short nap, nibbāna swung even further away for a few moments. And then nibbāna, like the carrot, came to Ven. Ānanda! According to the well-known account, before Ven. Ānanda’s head had touched the pillow, his mind had swallowed sweet nibbāna.

 

[ChiForce]

There is no versus.  The absolute self, the Dao, is formless, the dharmakaya.  Your identity, your nirmanakaya, is subjected to the condition of time and space...is form...form is formless....formless is form.   They are one and the same.  They are both needed to realize the Tao.  They are forever in a state of flux, ever changing.   

[Orion]

I should also say, if you haven't got all your conceptual dots lined up and your definitions crossed- it's highly likely that you haven't- then you will not fully accept your position and likely begin to feel a certain longing to return to known practices. Don't let that put you into a quandary where you are damned if you do and damned if you don't. It takes a while to fully understand and hammer out reality in a way that you are totally confident in your developed philosophy. If you relapse a bit don't sweat it, sometimes that happens.

 

After reading through everyone's replies, my impression is that it's the conceptual framework that's a main source of struggle. Many aspects of my life, or "symptoms" as you may call them, seem aligned with some kind of progression. I just haven't been able to formulate an expression for what's happening, and this is important to me. Where I am, I don't really have a community to talk about this with and I find coming here very sobering for that reason.

 

Thank you.

[dawei]

I have noticed an association between 'giving up' followed shortly by 'awakening', can anyone explain the mechanics of this? 

 

In a word, "surrender". 

[dawei]

There is no versus.  The absolute self, the Dao, is formless, the dharmakaya.  Your identity, your nirmanakaya, is subjected to the condition of time and space...is form...form is formless....formless is form.   They are one and the same.  They are both needed to realize the Tao.  They are forever in a state of flux, ever changing.   

 

I agree that when we look at it, we see duality... versus.  

 

They are both only needed as long as we occupy form.   And I mean our mental occupation too.

 

Meaning, if they are one and the same, then we only need One to realize... both simply realizes Two.

 

Every changing is the perspective of Two.

[ChiForce]

I agree that when we look at it, we see duality... versus.  

 

They are both only needed as long as we occupy form.   And I mean our mental occupation too.

 

Meaning, if they are one and the same, then we only need One to realize... both simply realizes Two.

 

Every changing is the perspective of Two.

Yeah because we, as mortals and still mortals, are still living in this body with respective to its space and time.  And our own sense of self is still being influenced by the world we are living in, regardless if you have realized the Tao or the Dharma.  Your universal self or the Dharmakaya self can never be manifested in this world, yet, it is everywhere.  You can only realize this absolute self through the actions of your own temporal existence in a given life situation.  

 

In an experiential level, in dreams, you may begin to see yourself in a mirror but your own reflection may appear different.  Or you may find yourself meditating in dreams.

 

Of course, this duality....is to assume that the OP knows he or she has an absolute self.    I doubt it.....hey, someone claims to know the Tao and the Dharma...yeah, really????         

[Karl]

After reading through everyone's replies, my impression is that it's the conceptual framework that's a main source of struggle. Many aspects of my life, or "symptoms" as you may call them, seem aligned with some kind of progression. I just haven't been able to formulate an expression for what's happening, and this is important to me. Where I am, I don't really have a community to talk about this with and I find coming here very sobering for that reason.

 

Thank you.

 

You have to make the choice of what is best for you. You are on one train and you can slow it down, speed it up, get off, get back on, wait a while on the platform, or take a different train. No one can tell you exactly what you have to do.

 

Do you leave it to chance and intuition, do you trust and have faith, do you think it doesn't necessarily matter and get on and off trains if one doesn't seem to go where you had planned, or because it doesn't feel so good ?

 

You see I do not think its the trains that are flawed, I think they are just trains going multiple places, but if it were me, well I would want to read the timetables, I would want an idea where I was headed and which was the best train to get on. With esoteric, meditative practices no one can really tell you where you are headed, the destination is shrouded in deep mystery-some say they know, or have a good idea and you can choose to interrogate, or just accept they know and that you like their approach/ attitude and that's sufficient. At some point though, you have to either plow on, or take stock. Is the progressive verifiable and in what context ? Is it increasingly divorcing you from reality/yourself and are is that the way you want to go ? Would grounding be slowing progress, or is it a useful part of the process ?

 

I wouldn't try and answer for you. I know what I did and why ? In a sense I had an inkling, but it was only after that I could look back and see what I could not.

 

I'm not minded to say that this, or that is the answer you seek, but if you feel a conceptual fog allied to a feeling of progress, then I would say you chose feelings over reasoned cognition. There are many here-well most-that would argue that the heart is the proper approach to these things, but as you know, I'm not one.

 

 

 

 

[Orion]

There is no versus.  The absolute self, the Dao, is formless, the dharmakaya.  Your identity, your nirmanakaya, is subjected to the condition of time and space...is form...form is formless....formless is form.   They are one and the same.  They are both needed to realize the Tao.  They are forever in a state of flux, ever changing.   

 

I understand that, believe me... but it's difficult to even have the conversation without using dualistic language because that's how language is. So forgive me if I step on a few semantic landmines in trying to communicate this.

[Orion]

 I'm not minded to say that this, or that is the answer you seek, but if you feel a conceptual fog allied to a feeling of progress, then I would say you chose feelings over reasoned cognition. There are many here-well most-that would argue that the heart is the proper approach to these things, but as you know, I'm not one.

 

I would say I choose both. If either or both don't resonate then I can't go along with it, whatever it is. It has to be harmonious.

 

For the purposes of this thread, I'm having a lot of feelings and experiences that I don't have the conceptual framework to identify. So the balance tips more toward feelings, in this case. The ability to name a thing or an experience has its uses.

[ChiForce]

I understand that, believe me... but it's difficult to even have the conversation without using dualistic language because that's how language is. So forgive me if I step on a few semantic landmines in trying to communicate this.

More than that....we don't choose.  Is better to assume a role given with certain life situations, which are many.  And to knowing that they aren't real.  However, you believe that you can realize the Tao or the Absolute Self through your interactions with this relative, impermanent self.    Meaning that..you don't cling on to this impermanent, relative self but would eventually move on when you are done with it.    

[3bob]

The Self knows the Self, regardless of the limits of mental concepts and comparisons.

[Karl]

The ability to name a thing or an experience has its uses.

 

If we deliberately go wandering into a maze with the intention of getting lost, then it shouldn't be at all surprised to discover it is an achievable intention. Neither should we be confused that we feel confused. The only one in that maze is you and it's one of your own construction and one on which you have laboured many hours.

 

You need to figure out the original purpose of its construction.

 

 

[Kubba]

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Edited May 6, 2016 by Kubba

[Marblehead]

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I see your point Kubba.

[Jetsun]

This topic is challenging for me to articulate because it's an emerging issue for me, but I feel this community may be able to offer some insight. The problem is mostly linguistic so I hope you can read between the lines and get what I'm saying.

 

It has become apparent to me that I have spent too much time focusing on the Absolute, or the Non-self. I have spent a large part of my spiritual-seeking life thinking that ego dissolving means abdicating my worldly self to a higher power. To use an analogy, I tried to become all Dao and haven't spent enough time admitting that I'm also one of the 10,000 things. It's almost like I have been trying to escape from being human by going into the Absolute experience, which has sabotaged some of my embodied vitality, and as a result I have underdeveloped my relationship to my human self, making it difficult (but not impossible) to BE HERE.

 

I would say this is pretty common. The fact is that it is hard being a human being, especially in relation to others, most of us spend most of our time trying to get out of ourselves in one means or another.

 

One of the paths I am involved with focuses more on waking up through your issues rather than around them, but to do so you get a lot of help to move through your most difficult, painful and traumatic stuff, otherwise I don't know if I would ever be willing to do it, and even with help there is an enormous amount I am sure I am still avoiding. There are some core karmic issues which have been building up over lifetimes waiting to be met and embraced, but over lifetimes they build up so much energy that they can be too overwhelming to even contemplate facing, so we may need help clearing that stuff out until it becomes manageable. 

 

But to move into the absolute first isn't a bad thing, Adyashanti often talks about the inevitable rebound as the absolute comes back to earth to reclaim and redeem all that remains in a sense of separation from within your humanness. That rebound is inevitable so going that way about things isn't bad. 

[dwai]

This topic is challenging for me to articulate because it's an emerging issue for me, but I feel this community may be able to offer some insight. The problem is mostly linguistic so I hope you can read between the lines and get what I'm saying.

 

It has become apparent to me that I have spent too much time focusing on the Absolute, or the Non-self. I have spent a large part of my spiritual-seeking life thinking that ego dissolving means abdicating my worldly self to a higher power. To use an analogy, I tried to become all Dao and haven't spent enough time admitting that I'm also one of the 10,000 things. It's almost like I have been trying to escape from being human by going into the Absolute experience, which has sabotaged some of my embodied vitality, and as a result I have underdeveloped my relationship to my human self, making it difficult (but not impossible) to BE HERE.

 

I have been thinking a lot about all the people I have heard or met who speak to the hollowness of the Absolute experience if it can’t come home to the human level self. I find that the more I seek the Absolute experience, the more I find a part of my humanity rebelling... it's not a mere ego but a real, human self trying to assert itself as a human self that is also Divine. Almost immediately after birth the conditioning begins and ego defenses develop, and after this it becomes harder and harder to find the De. But there is a structure like presence that always permeates the ego and body and mind, and this presence is palpable, and human. Hardly anyone ever finds their way home to this shining presence, but for me, this is the secret to human level happiness and peace, and it's the one thing that I have avoided by being so into the Absolute. I've made this really hard for myself.

 

It's not that "Absolutists" are wrong, it's that I have noticed that when I listen to them now, I feel very lonely. Because of the way I have nurtured it, I also find it a tad disembodying... and I have learned that this ties into health, vitality, and being a present force as a human being.

 

In a nutshell what I’m saying is that when the Absolute resonance takes the form of a human, a resonating “me” is created and this is the real self which our mind/bodies can experience and which allows for the body-based connection we all have lost and seek.

 

The glimpses I get of my human real self indicate to me that it's here in every single moment shining through all the ego level dynamics, memories, thoughts and emotions that form personality patterns. It cares about me deeply and contains all the things that I am seeking on a human level, containing absolutely everything I need... and it is felt and experienced exactly like a normal human self: as me. But these moments of clarity are not consistent and I often find myself sifting through the Dao to find myself, which makes no sense whatsoever. For a lot of mediators, they experience emptiness or oneness, and then when they stop their practices their personality level re-engages. For me, what re-engages is that I don't recognize "my life" or who I really am in the world. It's not just that the De is obscured by a bunch of ego crap, it's that my De has been non-stop sublimated to the One. This has been a problem. One thing I have considered is that maybe it's part of my De to behave this way, but if that's true then I would feel peace instead of conflict.

 

Another symptom is that other people can recognize my essence more readily than I can. They sense my energy, my presence, my real humanity, whereas I have spent many years looking to the beyond. So it's not like real me isn't there, it's that I've trained myself to not see it. What a paradox.

 

The only thing I can think to equate this to is the De, or Virtue, but I'm not sure. I'm not dissociated, it's not like that. I still relate to the world and function in all the ways that matter. I've chosen a life path that is in alignment with my De. Yet somehow I don't feel fully here, as a human being. I feel the All more than I feel my humanity, and it doesn't feel right somehow. So how do I correct this imbalance?

 

One method suggested to me is to think back to before age 7, since most children are closer to their essence or De at that age... think of the things I loved doing, experiencing, etc. In other words, connecting to the inner child is a method.

 

Any others?

If you try to be Dao then it's not the real Dao. It is not possible to remain sublimated in the absolute self (or the True Self). The non-self identifies with the 10,000 things.

 

But it is also the non-self that tries to be Dao. And sometimes deludes itself into thinking it is Dao.

 

When you are Dao you will not need to indulge in 10,000 things or feel the fear or guilt or whatever human frailties one feels. The ridiculousness of attaching to the 10,000 things becomes evident after a point. Then we are free. If we so choose, temporarily indulge in the objects and then go back to the absolute.

[silent thunder]

Your words and thoughts resonate so potently with my own Orion.

 

Seeking, effort, desire... leave no space for being.  To experience now is all but impossible in this...

 

My operative term now and my mantra is release...

 

At first I just released the anger, resentment and some of the painful old stories.

Recently this release is opening up into the fluid action and feeling of every aware moment.

 

Let go, just be.  It's so ridiculously, intimately close... now, I find myself laughing raucously at the 'simplest' of moments... the effort itself was masking the truth, yet even untruth serves truth and so nothing is able to be truly hidden.  Nothing is ever lost, broken, soiled, nor marred in any way.  Obscured, masked by effort and seeking and wanting, but never apart.  Always the source is and we do not even return to the source... how to return to that which one is incapable of leaving?

 

one of the few absolutes i maintain at this fluid juncture... 'the one true impossibility is to ever be separated from 'it', by even a hundredth of a hair's width, for even a fraction of a millisecond... ever.' 

 

Release is my laughter and my love and my emptiness... let the fluid moment flow as we all flow... we are none of us nouns... but fluid verbs, flowing and roiling in that which is all in all.