Theories and practices dealing with Yin and Yan energies in Chi-

[joeblast]

I'm probably gonna get chewed up.....

which is why this thread should have been two threads, one where people can ramble on about what their masters or not masters may or may not have said, with nothing more substantial in the works - and a second thread for how people have been able to relate their masters (or non masters, as the case may be) teachings vis a vis their own practices.

 

(instead we get this relatively neutered thread.)

 

the latter would be devoid of pit starters since it'd be kept real and not just a collection of quotes that one may or may not have an experiential relation to.

[Mudfoot]

People from more than one line of teachers quote books without being able or willing to write about what they actually feel.

 

My problem is the other way around. There are no books describing anything of what I do beyond what you might learn in three to four beginners weekends. Not in any language I understand anyway.

 

And my teacher, and his teacher before that, focused on External Qi Healing. That means I am without clear guidance when it comes to the effect of some of the more spiritual sides of my system.

 

The exercises follow the same patterns as many other systems, so all the above are things I work with.

 

But the question is sincere, which are more qigong and which are more useful for spiritual practice and why?

Edited May 16, 2016 by Mudfoot

[blue eyed snake]

People from more than one line of teachers quote books without being able or willing to write about what they actually feel.

 

My problem is the other way around. There are no books describing anything of what I do beyond what you might learn in three to four beginners weekends. Not in any language I understand anyway.

 

And my teacher, and his teacher before that, focused on External Qi Healing. That means I am without clear guidance when it comes to the effect of some of the more spiritual sides of my system.

 

The exercises follow the same patterns as many other systems, so all the above are things I work with.

 

But the question is sincere, which are more qigong and which are more useful for spiritual practice and why?

 

I wonder...you clearly are searching, or wanting answers, guidance on our path ? yes?

 

But does not your teacher give hints which way to go?

I mean, my teacher too is doing something like medical Qigong, but he's aware of the other things that happen to his students. He does not tell a f#*#k to be honest with you. But he does give guidance and help by remarks given to us individually.

 

i remember the last workshop I did, he told the group, while looking at me, that doing standing posture for a whole day can be effective to go a step further. that remark was meant for me, I know that. And I see him doing that with others too.

 

also, seems to me that every lineage has its own ways, and every student his own path, what might be good for me may not be good for you, in the where and who you are.

 

so, even though I was sometimes irritated by my teacher, i'm not anymore because I know by now that those hints are all the guidance I need.

 

So i cannot but wonder you having a teacher and seemingly missing that guidance. But maybe I did not get your question right?

[Mudfoot]

My teacher has, if you want to use those words, mapped out the road with what and how to practice.

And last time I talked to him, he said that's good and keep on practice.

 

 

But he does not discuss which of these sensation are useful and which are not.

So, if I go back to my question in this thread, from a more spiritual view, are any of these yin/yang more useful than the others, are they only useful for getting insight in impermanence, or are they not useful at all?

 

Just fishing. Any view might give me some valuable input.

[Mudfoot]

Or are any sensations just entertainment, while I should sit in full lotus and focus on enlightenment? ;-)

[doc benway]

My teacher has, if you want to use those words, mapped out the road with what and how to practice. And last time I talked to him, he said that's good and keep on practice. But he does not discuss which of these sensation are useful and which are not. So, if I go back to my question in this thread, from a more spiritual view, are any of these yin/yang more useful than the others, are they only useful for getting insight in impermanence, or are they not useful at all? Just fishing. Any view might give me some valuable input.

 

 

Or are any sensations just entertainment, while I should sit in full lotus and focus on enlightenment? ;-)

 

It really depends on what system you practice, do you want to share that information?

 

There are few general rights and wrongs in my experience with Daoist and Buddhist practices.

There are exercises that involve focusing on this or that, everything and nothing, movement, stillness, expanding, guiding, compressing, contracting, heat, light, color, feeling, pain, and so on...

 

There are experiences and sensations that arise and vary with person and method.

Sometimes the experiences can be a cue as to where you are and what to do next. That's where the expert guidance of a teacher is so valuable - reading the signs which are infinitely variable. Most often the sensations and experiences are nothing to be carried away with, nothing more than an ornament, or entertainment as you put it. They come and they go and the instruction most often is let them come, notice them while they are there, allow them to go without following.

[allinone]

every sensation is with dilemma: do or not to do. So you can produce your own movement and style, every movement can be countered. You can use your body as your partner.

 

when release/change happens with "Do" you lost. When without "Do" you win.

[Mudfoot]

I practice Shaolin Nei Jin Yi Zhi Chan, Luo han gong, Kong Jing Gong and Poison hands which are interrelated methods.

 

So what I miss is feedback on if any sensation is a milestone or if I should continue to treat them as sensations, while practicing as good as I can. Now that has worked so far, but I am always willing to accept that I am missing something.

I have missed the obvious before, and with helpful comments on this forum been able to put experiences in a more useful context.

 

Or maybe I should spend more time in defining what "spiritual practice" means to me.;-)

 

 

 

[Michael Sternbach]

I practice Shaolin Nei Jin Yi Zhi Chan, Luo han gong, Kong Jing Gong and Poison hands which are interrelated methods. So what I miss is feedback on if any sensation is a milestone or if I should continue to treat them as sensations, while practicing as good as I can. Now that has worked so far, but I am always willing to accept that I am missing something. I have missed the obvious before, and with helpful comments on this forum been able to put experiences in a more useful context. Or maybe I should spend more time in defining what "spiritual practice" means to me.;-)

 

To consider any sensation a milestone would be an exaggeration, I think. The more your subtle body is being activated, the more common such sensations will become. They are a natural part of the process of spiritual awakening. How much attention you should dedicate to them, i.e. if you aim at deliberately amplifying them, depends on the goals of a particular method. Feeling and directing chi is essential in some of the practices you mention.

[Mudfoot]

There is a useful point, "depends on the goals of a particular method".

 

I'll have to look in to that. Although I made an interpretation of that which probably deviated from your intention.

[Michael Sternbach]

There is a useful point, "depends on the goals of a particular method".

 

I'll have to look in to that. Although I made an interpretation of that which probably deviated from your intention.

 

Be free to read my words in any manner that is helpful to you. And share your conclusions, please.

[doc benway]

I practice Shaolin Nei Jin Yi Zhi Chan, Luo han gong, Kong Jing Gong and Poison hands which are interrelated methods. So what I miss is feedback on if any sensation is a milestone or if I should continue to treat them as sensations, while practicing as good as I can. Now that has worked so far, but I am always willing to accept that I am missing something. I have missed the obvious before, and with helpful comments on this forum been able to put experiences in a more useful context.

 

I'd suggest you treat sensations and experiences as just that. Chasing after them wondering if you are missing a deeper significance is a dead end and will distract you from benefiting from the practice itself.

 

There are some milestones in practice that are an indication that it is time to change your approach. For example, when we start learning to meditate by focusing on an external or internal object, a lot of effort is required in the beginning to maintain the connection. The thoughts are turbulent and uncontrolled and continually carry us away. There comes a time when the ability to maintain the focus is much easier, this is an indicator that it is time to let go of the effort. In general, things like this are relatively intuitive.

 

There are also indicators that a teacher looks for to see if a student is ready for a more advanced practice. We can sometimes notice them ourselves. It is about seeing if the practices are leading to changes in our lives. Are we more calm, less stressed, better adjusted? Do we focus less on negative things and more on potential? Are we gaining confidence and stability in our postures and activity, both physical and mental? If we are not seeing beneficial changes in our life it may mean that we are not practicing properly, this is where feedback from an expert is so valuable. It could also mean that the practice is not a good fit for us and it is time to move on. It's important to be honest with ourselves about these things. 

 

 

Or maybe I should spend more time in defining what "spiritual practice" means to me.;-)

 

I do think there is value there. It is important to have some sense of your objectives. Then you can see if the practices are moving you closer or farther from those objectives. Spiritual practice can mean many different things to different people.

[Mudfoot]

The goals of a method depends on your interpretation of that method.

 

Say that you have a method from, well Disneyland. Now, everybody with an official franchise would say that Mickey, Donald and Goofy all must be present for it to be genuine Disney.

 

But because of politics and practical considerations, some choose to retain only Goofy.

 

Insert Chan-wu-yi, retain yi.

 

So if only one aspect is pursued, you loose sight of the other goals.

 

Like chan. Or wu.

 

Add 2-3 generations, ad Mudfoot.

With previous training in wu, getting training in yi, experiencing that the method activates the energetic system in ways similar to what authors like Chia and others claim to be of use in spiritual practice. So said Mudfoot have to make a choice.

 

I have to learn more about the interpretations connected to chan.

 

Now, what muds up the water so to speak is that the work done in the level I am currently working on is more or less described by Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche, with fragments found in the immense works of Jerry Alan Johnson.

 

Which means that I am (körd).

Which theoretical frame should I use.

Mix, like a New Age smörgåsbord?

Or go for Chan?

Decision, decision.....

 

Cheez doodles, anyone?

 

See why I asked if someone felt one or more of the different yin yang manifestations were useful within a spiritual frame.

 

I am so clueless in this area. :-)

Edited May 17, 2016 by Mudfoot

[Michael Sternbach]

The goals of a method depends on your interpretation of that method.

Say that you have a method from, well Disneyland. Now, everybody with an official franchise would say that Mickey, Donald and Goofy all must be present for it to be genuine Disney.

But because of politics and practical considerations, some choose to retain only Goofy.

Insert Chan-wu-yi, retain yi.

So if only one aspect is pursued, you loose sight of the other goals.

Like chan. Or wu.

Add 2-3 generations, ad Mudfoot.

With previous training in wu, getting training in yi, experiencing that the method activates the energetic system in ways similar to what authors like Chia and others claim to be of use in spiritual practice. So said Mudfoot have to make a choice.

I have to learn more about the interpretations connected to chan.

Now, what muds up the water so to speak is that the work done in the level I am currently working on is more or less described by Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche, with fragments found in the immense works of Jerry Alan Johnson.

Which means that I am (körd).

Which theoretical frame should I use.

Mix, like a New Age smörgåsbord?

Or go for Chan?

Decision, decision.....

Cheez doodles, anyone?

See why I asked if someone felt one or more of the different yin yang manifestations were useful within a spiritual frame.

I am so clueless in this area. :-)

 

The situation you are describing is so complex, it's fucking goofy.*

 

Perhaps you are over-intellectualizing a little?

 

*What Minnie is doing when she is cheating on Mickey.

[Mudfoot]

Delete perhaps

 

 

Actually, if I look at what I am thinking, I am in a period of doubt. Both in religious psychology in general and in Chan (according to Chan master Sheng-Yen) doubt is a crossroad/stepping-stone to new perspectives. So this discussion has made me put some of my thoughts in writing, most of which was edited out (pointless rambling) from my posts.

 

I belive it was triggered by an interesting chapter I am writing in my book projekt, nothing relevant here, just two emotion regulation principles and how they applie in what the psychological community refers to as "mindfulness".

 

That in turn made me (this morning) look at one of the posts in the thread why Daoism over Buddhism.

 

I might have found a perspective there that is useful, for now, in relation to my present training program.

 

Thank's for the input, I wouldn't have sorted this out as quickly on my own.

 

/Mudfoot