Transgender Problem

[Aetherous]

I don't know that the "Of course" is necessary.

 

It seems to you (or me), in most cases, something happening purely in the mental realm, perhaps. But there are biological indicators in many cases, and the research is ongoing. We should not judge before all the evidence is in.

 

I earlier mentioned that 'feelings' seem to be the primary explanation for trans people of all sorts, and that there is rarely a full biological explanation invoked. But just because someone feels something, and has no biological evidence for the feeling, does not necessarily mean that there is not a biological reason for the feeling.

 

Agreed...although I'm interested to know what these biological indicators are. Simply saying that they exist doesn't make it true. By clearing stating what they are, it can help educate our community (and people like me) about this subject.

 

Look at "finger length and sexual orientation".

 

This is a clear well established marker for sexual proclivity and it is not emotional in its basis.

 

The poster appears never to actually discuss things but comes up with short self assured bits and is rude enough not to ever elicit real discussions - because he is not looking for it. It always appears to have an agenda base.

 

Are you addressing me? 

[Spotless]

Agreed...although I'm interested to know what these biological indicators are. Simply saying that they exist doesn't make it true. By clearing stating what they are, it can help educate our community (and people like me) about this subject.

 

 

 

Are you addressing me? 

 

I was referring to the original poster.

[Karl]

Bullshit

By "progressive hobby" you meant "now that they've gotten gay marriage the new focus is on transgender".

 

Cheerleaders and advocates for surgery - ? pretty pathetic try for a save but not happening here.

 

The 'progressives hobby' is how I read it. This isn't about someone's preferences, but about the people using it to bash peaceful, moderate people over the head, to bludgeon them into accepting any kind of thing without daring to object.

 

It's trying to force an issue that most people don't really care less about and make it into a bowling ball to get their shouty, preachy little voices heard. They want to get the Government to dance to their tune and the rest of us better shut our mouths and get with the program. It doesn't matter if it's gender, gays, global warming or any other non threat-you can always find a progressive with their silly little placards screaming and spitting like a psychopaths. Yet no one can be allowed to dispute, offer an argument or an opinion without been accused of bigotry, racism, micro-aggression, personal offence, oppression, shame, Nazism, or trespassing on their 'safe spaces'.

 

They take an inch and another inch until they can finally get their way and install full on communism.

[blue eyed snake]

well,

 

I can only say that I'm happy that when I was young hormonal and surgical routes were not available. I've always felt like a boy, i remember well how angry I was the day  that my older brother told me that i would never grow a penis.... (i think i was 3 or 4 years old) and have tried to find a working balance in myself for years. But it does not feel like a ' disorder'. It is the trend of today that everything that is out of line to be labelled as a disorder.

 

Not denying btw, that for some of these people real traumatic things in their youth can have strong relations with their feeling of being misplaced in their body.

 

In both situations it would be nice when you'd be just accepted as you are and preferably be helped when you're struggling with it. Accept people as they are, make them feel that they are not weird or wrong, is that so hard?

 

As only a layperson, not a shrink, I do think (or accept if you wish) Dr McHugh's diagnosis that transgenderism is a 'gender dysphoria' disorder.  That being said I am open and compassionate to all beings, great and small.  Especially human ones with psychic disorders. 

 

so I resent the implication here that people like me have a psychic disorder.

I'm still not ' fixed' and I would not want to either, because i'm not damaged. I'm just what I am and that is allright. I can still look at a beautiful woman with male eyes, just no active intentions anymore. And I'm also a woman, with the enjoyments ( and pains) that come from being a woman. Even though it's probably not as simple as being male or female, it can have a richness of experience.

 

Accidentally  my 4th finger is longer then the second, i did in my younger years have a typical male job ( mechanic) and I took girls to bed, and i was involved in quite a bit of, typical boyish, risk-taking behaviour ( thank you Spotless! I've long found my balance with being man and woman in a womans body but it's nice to read things like this, because it is a sort of a struggle to find your balance.)

 

BES

[Karl]

It's really none of our business BES. I think if people want their genitals altered and can find a surgeon to carry out the work then it has diddly squat to do with me.

 

I think it might be more of a problem with males wanting to pretend to be full females-interestingly that it is the feminista that really get objectionable when the subject of transvestites using women's facilities rears its head.

 

What I do object to is companies and individuals being forced to accept transvestites-or anyone else-by law. That is a use of violence perpetrated by one group against another and that is intolerable.

Edited May 6, 2016 by Karl

[Spotless]

The 'progressives hobby' is how I read it. This isn't about someone's preferences, but about the people using it to bash peaceful, moderate people over the head, to bludgeon them into accepting any kind of thing without daring to object.

 

It's trying to force an issue that most people don't really care less about and make it into a bowling ball to get their shouty, preachy little voices heard. They want to get the Government to dance to their tune and the rest of us better shut our mouths and get with the program. It doesn't matter if it's gender, gays, global warming or any other non threat-you can always find a progressive with their silly little placards screaming and spitting like a psychopaths. Yet no one can be allowed to dispute, offer an argument or an opinion without been accused of bigotry, racism, micro-aggression, personal offence, oppression, shame, Nazism, or trespassing on their 'safe spaces'.

 

They take an inch and another inch until they can finally get their way and install full on communism.

 

Yes - thank you - this is precisely how the original poster meant it when he said it - and instead of owning up to the swipe and angst he came up with the poppycock response that it was in reference to "cheerleaders and advocates for surgery".

 

That neither of you have the abilities or wish to see past your extremely limited viewpoints and part with what you perceive as Keen Wit renders conversation as half witted and prone to quotation and then deference.

 

Your above quote is completely satisfactory in its display of what I am referring to.

[Bodhicitta]

As refreshing as it is to see Karl so close to my views, I will reiterate that my 'progressive hobby' words mean to me what I intended - nothing against those afflicted - fie on the cheerleaders.

 

As for B-E Snake's being offended that I might include her in the disordered group, so be it. 

 

Truth be told, I and all sentient being are afflicted with many disorders, chief among them being adoration of our self or ego; especially the body component.

 

Buddha knew the score and I strive to follow his path - not with much success, but I try.

Edited May 6, 2016 by Bodhicitta

[Karl]

Yes - thank you - this is precisely how the original poster meant it when he said it - and instead of owning up to the swipe and angst he came up with the poppycock response that it was in reference to "cheerleaders and advocates for surgery".

 

That neither of you have the abilities or wish to see past your extremely limited viewpoints and part with what you perceive as Keen Wit renders conversation as half witted and prone to quotation and then deference.

 

Your above quote is completely satisfactory in its display of what I am referring to.

Perhaps he didn't quite frame it because it's one of those things where you know there's a con but you can't quite figure out what or how. However it was clear to me that his intention was to root out the cheerleaders. Of course if you are a cheerleader you aren't going to be best pleased you just got your collar felt.

 

Causing offence/or feeling offended does not affect anyone's rights. Initiating physical force either directly, or by proxy certainly does.

 

Progressives fall into the latter group. Their aim is not to liberate but to enslave.

Edited May 6, 2016 by Karl

[dust]

Agreed...although I'm interested to know what these biological indicators are. Simply saying that they exist doesn't make it true. By clearing stating what they are, it can help educate our community (and people like me) about this subject.

 

Heh. Perhaps I should have linked to an example... though we do all have the same internet at our fingertips, I believe...

 

 

Easy and perfectly acceptable to start here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_transsexualism

 

which leads us to studies like this: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3402034/

 

A significant association was identified between transsexualism and the AR allele, with transsexuals having longer AR repeat lengths than non-transsexual male control subjects (p = .04).

 

and this: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17765230

 

These data support CYP17 as a candidate gene of FtM transsexualism and indicate that loss of a female-specific CYP17 T -34C allele distribution pattern is associated with FtM transsexualism.

 

 

The thing is, we still don't know very much about genetics in most respects, and relatively few studies have been done in this area. There are tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of studies on nutrition and exercise, and still no universal conclusions about how much protein one should consume or whether or not coffee is healthy. How much less must we be destined to agree on a topic like transgender/sexualism...

[liminal_luke]

 

 

well,

 

I can only say that I'm happy that when I was young hormonal and surgical routes were not available. I've always felt like a boy, i remember well how angry I was the day  that my older brother told me that i would never grow a penis.... (i think i was 3 or 4 years old) and have tried to find a working balance in myself for years. But it does not feel like a ' disorder'. It is the trend of today that everything that is out of line to be labelled as a disorder.

 

Not denying btw, that for some of these people real traumatic things in their youth can have strong relations with their feeling of being misplaced in their body.

 

In both situations it would be nice when you'd be just accepted as you are and preferably be helped when you're struggling with it. Accept people as they are, make them feel that they are not weird or wrong, is that so hard?

 

 

so I resent the implication here that people like me have a psychic disorder.

I'm still not ' fixed' and I would not want to either, because i'm not damaged. I'm just what I am and that is allright. I can still look at a beautiful woman with male eyes, just no active intentions anymore. And I'm also a woman, with the enjoyments ( and pains) that come from being a woman. Even though it's probably not as simple as being male or female, it can have a richness of experience.

 

Accidentally  my 4th finger is longer then the second, i did in my younger years have a typical male job ( mechanic) and I took girls to bed, and i was involved in quite a bit of, typical boyish, risk-taking behaviour ( thank you Spotless! I've long found my balance with being man and woman in a womans body but it's nice to read things like this, because it is a sort of a struggle to find your balance.)

 

BES

 

Thanks for this, BES.  I was hoping someone would post a personal perspective -- just what this thread needed.

 

People treat the whole transgender thing as some kind of political fight they need to pick sides in.  But all around me all I see are people, some very different from myself, that ask nothing more from me than to let them be.  Extra credit for feeling gratitude and appreciation for each and every glorious, blessed person, place, and thing.

Edited May 6, 2016 by liminal_luke

[blue eyed snake]

what bothers me, is that there seems to be a thing against transgenders etc.

But what are we really talking about.

 

there are people like me who feel not really at home in their body/gender when there young. In modern culture they are given the possibility to change gender, with hormones and surgical. At the same time they are confronted, as we all are, with a thoroughly over-sexualized world. Seems to me that this warps our youngsters, whether they are inclined to other gender behavior or not. just look at the endless threads about porn and masturbation. ( no offence meant here, i can readily empathize with the problems that come of this)

 

So these young people are given a 'chance' to change sex, they then pick a seksualized role as a woman, for it is the male-female transgenders that get the most attention. And, i think, they still have to learn to feel woman and man in the same body, it's mostly not a solution to change your physical body.

 

and after giving them this ' chance' they get dropped as misfits,

nice culture we have... and I can agree totally with their wish to be accepted.

 

The toilet thing is so futile, you think they had a separate toilet for me at the workplace? You think I'll go waiting in a queue for 'the ladies' when there is a toilet for men available? no way.

 

Btw, i've heard women protesting to men entering the ladies when they came there to change a babys nappy.... changing tables normally not being available in the men's place.  Hey, a toilet is a toilet, how small-minded can you be...

 

---

 

lets also not forget that every human body is home of the soul,

imho we have to learn and grow from what is given to us.

 

I seem to have memories of cultures where people born with two genders in their heart were revered because of their capacities of helping to bridge the gap between the genders and their often easy access to 'god' in whatever form. Powerful shamans they were. Valuable for the community

 

But in this here and now they are portrayed and labeled as misfits, to me that's just sad. For me it makes no difference whatsoever, i've found my balance and do as i please, but my heart bleeds for those youngsters that grow up in these times.

[WisteriaWinds]

Personally I enjoy people speaking freely. If I don't agree with their views I can simply ignore them. To me it's much more disconcerting if a group of people decide what enlightened communication/thinking is going to look like and then feel entitled to expect the rest of us to adhere to that.

Reminds me of the South Park toilet seat episode.

[ralis]

Personally I enjoy people speaking freely. If I don't agree with their views I can simply ignore them. To me it's much more disconcerting if a group of people decide what enlightened communication/thinking is going to look like and then feel entitled to expect the rest of us to adhere to that.

Reminds me of the South Park toilet seat episode.

 

So called free speech has limits and anyone positing discriminatory points of view, should be shown disapproval.

[liminal_luke]

I seem to have memories of cultures where people born with two genders in their heart were revered because of their capacities of helping to bridge the gap between the genders and their often easy access to 'god' in whatever form. Powerful shamans they were. Valuable for the community

 

Transgender or no, part of becoming spiritually mature, in my opinion, is coming to peace with our dual yin-yang, male-female nature.  Even the manliest men have feminine sides (and vice versa), and getting familiar with the whole kitchen-kaboodle of our human qualities is part of the process.

Edited May 6, 2016 by liminal_luke

[WisteriaWinds]

From a mod when they violate forum rules they agreed to. Otherwise it's just plain controlling and arrogant.

 

So called free speech has limits and anyone positing discriminatory points of view, should be shown disapproval.

[Karl]

So called free speech has limits and anyone positing discriminatory points of view, should be shown disapproval.

 

Were you the inspiration behind Principle PC on South Park ?

[ralis]

From a mod when they violate forum rules they agreed to. Otherwise it's just plain controlling and arrogant.

 

 

Controlling or political correctness? No. History is replete with examples of how so called free speech can lead to hate and violence.

[blue eyed snake]

Transgender or no, part of becoming spiritually mature, in my opinion, is coming to peace with our dual yin-yang, male-female nature.  Even the manliest men have feminine sides (and vice versa), and getting familiar with the whole kitchen-kaboodle of our human qualities is part of the process.

 

thanks Liminal, that is true, and where people without gender-issues can easily ignore that part of them. for twosoul-people it is an urgent issue that they have to deal with from a young age.

 

seems to me that by offering  the possibility of genderchange, the path to learning who you really are is, at least for a while, cut of. Also, these hormone-treatments...what does that to your being?

 

being a woman i've taken oral contraceptives for a while, and it just changes who you really are

[liminal_luke]

From a mod when they violate forum rules they agreed to. Otherwise it's just plain controlling and arrogant.

 

 

Free speech is great because you can just ignore views you disagree with, unless of course we´re talking about Ralis objecting to discrimination and hatred -- in which case it´s controlling and arrogant?  Of course you´re right that the mods have the last say.  But if we´re going to allow small-minded people to spout off about their prejudices, shouldn´t we also allow big-minded people to call them out about it?

Edited May 6, 2016 by liminal_luke

[ralis]

http://www.hrc.org/blog/anti-lgbt-bills-introduced-in-28-states

 

This is why showing disapproval to narrow minded persons is important.

 

 

The wave of anti-LGBT bills filed across the country continues to swell. As of today, lawmakers have introduced more than 85 anti-LGBT bills in 28 state legislatures.

Edited May 6, 2016 by ralis

[ralis]

Is the OP against marriage between same sex couples? That would reveal his true motives and one can ascertain his degree of selective compassion.

[Karl]

"Among the recently introduced anti-LGBT legislation is a pair of bills in Nevada that would allow individuals and businesses to use religion to challenge or opt out of laws, including laws that protect LGBT people from discrimination in employment, housing and public accommodations. Similar legislation was also recently introduced in Montana and is still pending in Arkansas, Georgia, Missouri, Texas and elsewhere."

 

There should never have been any laws forcing individuals and businesses to accept LGBT. It's there that there is a problem, but you won't see it. It is a right for a private person to discriminate against anyone they care to discriminate against. This need be nothing more than a refusal of a job application, or a refusal to serve.

 

Completely different to public sector/government housing, employment etc which is the state enacting discrimation when it has a monopoly. In that case the state should be forced to accept anyone as long as they are suitable in terms of skills.

 

However, we have had this discussion before so I don't expect you will change your mind.

Edited May 6, 2016 by Karl

[Karl]

Free speech is great because you can just ignore views you disagree with, unless of course we´re talking about Ralis objecting to discrimination and hatred -- in which case it´s controlling and arrogant?  Of course you´re right that the mods have the last say.  But if we´re going to allow small-minded people to spout off about their prejudices, shouldn´t we also allow big-minded people to call them out about it?

 

Prejudice like calling anyone that disagrees with you 'small minded people' you mean ? ;-)

Would you accept someone calling you 'psychologically disturbed' ? Isn't that precisely what you would describe as discrimination ? It's ok for you to be offensive, but no one else. This has been my point all along, that we all make judgements and that's fine unless it's abusive. (Forum rules applying of course).

 

That seems like hypocrisy to me. It's dead easy to get obsessed with minority behaviour, when it's really the person that should be judged. Let's be open minded, remain judgemental, but not abusive.

 

[Karl]

Controlling or political correctness? No. History is replete with examples of how so called free speech can lead to hate and violence.

The opposite. The worst violence has been perpetrated against people when free speech was denied. Essentially freedom is denied.

 

Anyway I've wasted far to much time giving oxygen to this subject.

Edited May 6, 2016 by Karl

[Bodhicitta]

Is the OP against marriage between same sex couples? That would reveal his true motives and one can ascertain his degree of selective compassion.

 

Why wait for my revelation of 'true motive'- can you not psychically sense it?  But could you trust such a monster to tell the truth anyway...

 

My my my the trials you thought police must go through.

Edited May 6, 2016 by Bodhicitta