Transgender Problem

[liminal_luke]

"It may be true that the law cannot make a man love me, but it can keep him from lynching me, and I think that's pretty important." -MLK

 

MLK is absolutely right in saying we can´t legislate away hated.  But we also can´t legislate away the right of good people to object to hatred.  Just because someone has a right to hate doesn´t mean everybody should just be quiet about it.  Quite the contrary.  Our moral, if not legal, obligation is to raise our voices high.    

[Karl]

There is discrimination in thought, and there is discrimination in deed. It is possible to deny someone the freedom to do a thing based on one's own prejudice against them. Your liberty doesn't give you the right to deny me my liberty. The liberty of someone full of hatred doesn't trump the liberty of someone they hate.

 

Many people of various 'races' around the world and through history would agree that discrimination in deed can impinge on one's liberty.

 

The simple freedom, for example, to exist in the same space as people of other 'races' -- eating in the same space in a cafeteria, drinking from the same water fountain, sitting in the same space on a bus, etc. Not to mention the freedom to not be burned on a crucifix.

 

 

 

 

 

It impinges no ones freedom if someone discriminates against you in thought or deed. You are making it about race and minorities, but it's about people. All you are saying is that one person should be forced to accept another. Someone in that situation is not being granted their freedom.

 

Then you add a straw man 'burned at the crucifix' which is a violation of right to life. In no way have I suggested or implied this is acceptable.

 

What you are saying is that racism is acceptable as long is it is the minority who is being racist.

 

If racism isn't right, then it cannot be right whoever does it.

 

If I walk into a restaurant and the guy doesn't like the look of me because I'm sporting a hells angels cut off, then he has the right to deny me a table. If I go outside get my gang and return with shotguns and knuckle dusters, threaten to smash up his restaurant and put him in a cage if he doesn't give me a table am I acting correctly ? Is this ending the restaurant owners discrimination against motorcycle gangs ? It makes no difference if it's a gang or the government that is employed as the medium of force.

 

I speak from experience because this is precisely how it was during the 1970s. If we turned up at a pub we would be shown the door. A motorcycle helmet and leathers resulted in discrimination. The owners didn't know we were nice guys, he just saw thugs, trouble and an alienation of his customer base. We were thrown out of fish and chip shops, restaurants and garages wouldn't serve us fuel.

 

The answer was not to force people to accept us by creating a law. The reason why these people rejected us was a whole raft of film, book, newspaper and TV propaganda that had motorcyclists down as violent, thieving, rotten, dirty people. When the media stopped portraying us debauched maniacs it was no longer an issue.

[Karl]

the right of good people to object to hatred.  

 

Which is exactly what I'm doing whilst you encourage the opposite. Stop encouraging the initiating of force in either direction.

[ralis]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10141441061

 

 

This is the same guy who had a sculpture of the 'ten commandments' in his courthouse and was ordered by a federal judge to remove it.

 

 

Roy Moore, Alabama Judge, Suspended Over Gay Marriage Stance Source: NY Times

An Alabama judicial oversight body on Friday filed a formal complaint against Roy S. Moore, the chief justice of the state’s Supreme Court, charging that he had “flagrantly disregarded and abused his authority” in ordering the state’s probate judges to refuse applications for marriage licenses by same-sex couples.

As a result of the charges, Chief Justice Moore, 69, has been immediately suspended from the bench and is facing a potential hearing before the state’s Court of the Judiciary, a panel of judges, lawyers and other appointees. Among possible outcomes at such a hearing would be his removal from office.

“We intend to fight this agenda vigorously and expect to prevail,” Chief Justice Moore said in a statement, saying that the Judicial Inquiry Commission, which filed the complaint, had no authority over the charges at issue.

Referring to a transgender activist in Alabama, Chief Justice Moore said the commission had “chosen to listen to people like Ambrosia Starling, a professed transvestite, and other gay, lesbian and bisexual individuals, as well as organizations which support their agenda.”

Read more: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/07/us/judge-roy-moore-alabama-same-sex-marriage.html

Edited May 7, 2016 by ralis

[Kar3n]

When we spend too much time taking notice of what we perceive to be another person's problem, we neglect to see those fingers pointing back at us.

 

People really need to stop crying about rights and civil liberties and get on with being decent human beings. Imagine all of the BS that will disintegrate in the process.

[ralis]

When we spend too much time taking notice of what we perceive to be another person's problem, we neglect to see those fingers pointing back at us.

 

People really need to stop crying about rights and civil liberties and get on with being decent human beings. Imagine all of the BS that will disintegrate in the process.

 

Really? There is more violence perpetrated in the name of religion which supposedly preaches morality and this has continued for millenia. Wishing it were true will never cure the problem.

[C T]

Really? There is more violence perpetrated in the name of religion which supposedly preaches morality and this has continued for millenia. Wishing it were true will never cure the problem.

Some statistics to back up your statement would be good. 

[ralis]

Some statistics to back up your statement would be good. 

 

 

Spanish Inquisition, Crusades, Holy Wars, The Middle Ages and the Nazi SS basing much of their beliefs on religion. I guess you have not read any history.

[Kar3n]

Really? There is more violence perpetrated in the name of religion which supposedly preaches morality and this has continued for millenia. Wishing it were true will never cure the problem.

Who said anything about religion, morality or wishes?

 

Kindness is a choice, pure and simple. If you wish to attach morality, religion or wishes to it, that is yet another choice for you to make.

[ralis]

Who said anything about religion, morality or wishes?

 

Kindness is a choice, pure and simple. If you wish to attach morality, religion or wishes to it, that is yet another choice for you to make.

 

Most of the basis for the anti transgender ideology has a religious basis. Choice falls under the heading of free will and most have no concept or are in situations of stress that offers very little choice.

[Karl]

Really? There is more violence perpetrated in the name of religion which supposedly preaches morality and this has continued for millenia. Wishing it were true will never cure the problem.

 

There I agree with you there, however I'm not going to give you a 'thanks' because your answer to spiritual mysticism is muscle mysticism. It's just a pseudo scientific version of the religion you condemn.

[Old River]

Amusing how centuries of literal oppression of others has occurred throughout history (lynching, pogroms, genocide, Jim Crow laws, sundown towns, apartheid, etc.) -- but when those marginalized groups finally have their voices heard (after decades and centuries of struggle), the supporters of oppression get so upset, calling it "political correctness."

 

When people begin literally lynching straight white males without legal consequences or literally refuse them service at a business open to the public with no legal consequences, then I'll call that oppression.  But to equate the criticism and putting into place laws that give everyone equal status as a citizen with "oppression" is disingenuous. 

 

Live the life of a slave or a woman as a second class citizen, or a gay man who has to live as if his life were a dirty sin-- then you can tell me what you know about "oppression."  Straight white men have got it so easy that we don't even bother to notice -- rather, it's a given, and that's the special privilege that bigotry seeks to protect by all means of mental gymnastics to justify it's establishment in society. 

 

But that isn't happening-- rather it's just that "those people" won't "learn their place."  They are just "uppity," they are "militant," they are "extreme."  But this absurd hyperbole and pearl clutching serves no purpose but to obfuscate the desire to perpetuate the same old hierarchies.  Oh, wah. 

 

As a straight, white male, I say good riddance to the sham of white male "superiority."  The jig is up.

[ralis]

Psychology 110 lectures and reading usually have as part of the curriculum, discusses the famous Stanford Prison Experiment which demonstrates what persons are capable of.

 

http://www.prisonexp.org/

 

 

 

"How we went about testing these questions and what we found may astound you. Our planned two-week investigation into the psychology of prison life had to be ended after only six days because of what the situation was doing to the college students who participated. In only a few days, our guards became sadistic and our prisoners became depressed and showed signs of extreme stress. Please read the story of what happened and what it tells us about the nature of human nature."

–Professor Philip G. Zimbardo

Edited May 7, 2016 by ralis

[Bodhicitta]

The source of the priggishness is not the main point. In Victorian times and before, the urge to control folks through conventional morality or religion, for example, was strong.  Mrs Grundy was omnipresent. Nowadays it is secular priggs who wish to control people.

 

Compassion, kindness and charity are essential, but when they are demanded and those who do not express them as modern puritans think best, then they are punished by shaming and increasingly by legal strictures.

Edited May 7, 2016 by Bodhicitta

[Karl]

Amusing how centuries of literal oppression of others has occurred throughout history (lynching, pogroms, genocide, Jim Crow laws, sundown towns, apartheid, etc.) -- but when those marginalized groups finally have their voices heard (after decades and centuries of struggle), the supporters of oppression get so upset, calling it "political correctness."

 

When people begin literally lynching straight white males without legal consequences or literally refuse them service at a business open to the public with no legal consequences, then I'll call that oppression.  But to equate the criticism and putting into place laws that give everyone equal status as a citizen with "oppression" is disingenuous. 

 

Live the life of a slave or a woman as a second class citizen, or a gay man who has to live as if his life were a dirty sin-- then you can tell me what you know about "oppression."  Straight white men have got it so easy that we don't even bother to notice -- rather, it's a given, and that's the special privilege that bigotry seeks to protect by all means of mental gymnastics to justify it's establishment in society. 

 

But that isn't happening-- rather it's just that "those people" won't "learn their place."  They are just "uppity," they are "militant," they are "extreme."  But this absurd hyperbole and pearl clutching serves no purpose but to obfuscate the desire to perpetuate the same old hierarchies.  Oh, wah. 

 

As a straight, white male, I say good riddance to the sham of white male "superiority."  The jig is up.

 

I would equally have that argument against genuine oppression regardless of who was being oppressed. The degree of oppression doesn't minimise that it is oppression. White people were the ones shouting to have slavery laws repealed. It was white people who repealed them. Yet, not a word is ever spoken about the black slavers. The implication is that white is bad and black/minorities are good. There are plenty of male rapes occurring every day, but it hardly gets a mention. It isn't heterosexuals doing that. Blacks are busy murdering each other at a rate that makes the entire 'black lives matter' campaign pointless. If black lives really mattered then they could stop murdering each other. Of course whites aren't innocent either, but let's have some balance, the real issue is not colour or sexuality, but the morals of the people beneath the skin.

 

 

[ralis]

The source of the priggishness is not the main point. In Victorian times and before, the urge to control folks through conventional morality or religion, for example, was strong.  Mrs Grundy was omnipresent. Nowadays it is secular priggs who wish to control people.

 

Compassion, kindness and charity are essential, but when they are demanded and those who do not express them as modern puritans think best, then they are punished by shaming and increasingly by legal strictures.

 

Will you elaborate more specifically?

[Bodhicitta]

Will you elaborate more specifically?

 

Why, what is unclear?

[Kar3n]

Most of the basis for the anti transgender ideology has a religious basis. Choice falls under the heading of free will and most have no concept or are in situations of stress that offers very little choice.

Again where on earth are you getting anything based on religion or anti transgender ideology out of anything I have said?

 

Everyone has a choice in how they conduct themselves. Part of the problem is no one wants to take personal responsibility for how they act and treat people, because it is always someone else's fault... the "if they weren't like that, I would not act like this" mentality is so over used, and a poor excuse.

[ralis]

Why, what is unclear?

 

Your entire post is generalized and lacks specific examples. After all, you started this discussion and so the onus is on you to defend your suppositions. So far I am not impressed.

[Old River]

Scholars discern motions in history & formulate these motions into rules that govern the rises & falls of civilizations. My belief runs contrary, however. To wit: history admits no rules; only outcomes.

 

What precipitates outcomes? Vicious acts & virtuous acts.

 

What precipitates acts? Belief.

 

Belief is both prize & battlefield, within the mind & in the mind’s mirror, the world. If we believe humanity is a ladder of tribes, a colosseum of confrontation, exploitation & bestiality, such a humanity is surely brought into being, & history's Horroxes, Boerhaaves & Gooses shall prevail. You & I, the moneyed, the privileged, the fortunate, shall not fare so badly in this world, provided our luck holds. What of it if our consciences itch? Why undermine the dominance of our race, our gunships, our heritage & our legacy? Why fight the “natural” (oh, weaselly word!) order of things?

 

Why? Because of this:—one fine day, a purely predatory world shall consume itself. Yes, the devil shall take the hindmost until the foremost is the hindmost. In an individual, selfishness uglifies the soul. For the human species, selfishness is extinction.

 

Is this the doom written within our nature?

 

If we believe that humanity may transcend tooth & claw, if we believe divers races & creeds can share this world as peaceably as the orphans share their candlenut tree, if we believe that leaders must be just, violence muzzled, power accountable & the riches of the Earth & its Oceans shared equitably, such a world will come to pass. I am not deceived. It is the hardest of worlds to make real. Torturous advances won over generations can be lost by a single stroke of a myopic president’s pen or a vainglorious general’s sword.

 

A life spent shaping a world I want Jackson to inherit, not one I fear Jackson shall inherit, this strikes me as a life worth the living.

 

~ David Mitchell, from Cloud Atlas

 

[ralis]

Again where on earth are you getting anything based on religion or anti transgender ideology out of anything I have said?

 

Everyone has a choice in how they conduct themselves. Part of the problem is no one wants to take personal responsibility for how they act and treat people, because it is always someone else's fault... the "if they weren't like that, I would not act like this" mentality is so over used, and a poor excuse.

 

Don't you read? The Roy Moore example posted earlier.

 

https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/ideology/anti-lgbt

 

 

Opposition to equal rights for LGBT people has been a central theme of Christian Right organizing and fundraising for the past three decades – a period that parallels the fundamentalist movement's rise to political power.

For Christian Right leaders, the LGBT rights movement and its so-called "homosexual agenda" are the prime culprits in the destruction of American society and culture. In the words of Focus on the Family founder James Dobson, the battle against LGBT rights is essentially a "second civil war" to put control of the U.S. government in the right hands, meaning those who reject LGBT rights....

 

Westboro Baptist Church is a clear example of hate.

 

[Kar3n]

Don't you read? The Roy Moore example posted earlier.

 

https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/ideology/anti-lgbt

 

 

 

Westboro Baptist Church is a clear example of hate.

 

I read just fine, thank you.

 

I do not share the same views as those at Westboro, and how you could equate anything that I have said to them and their hate-speech is pretty sad.

 

Perhaps you should re-read what I have said.

 

Good day.

[Bodhicitta]

Your entire post is generalized and lacks specific examples. After all, you started this discussion and so the onus is on you to defend your suppositions. So far I am not impressed.

 

Sez you. Do your own research.

[liminal_luke]

Like Ralis and Old River, I believe there´s value in piping up when folks post hate-filled drivel.  See something, say something.  There´s value in fighting back when they whine about how they are oppressed they are at the hands of nasty free-speech impeding progressives.  

 

But at a certain point, when the conversation isn´t going anywhere and isn´t going to, I start looking around for something else to do.  Sometimes people enjoy getting others worked up (however justifiably) and the best thing to do, at least for me, is to stop playing. (Not sure if this is what you meant Karen, but it´s the way I took your post.  Time to get back to work.)

Edited May 7, 2016 by liminal_luke

[ralis]

I read just fine, thank you.

 

I do not share the same views as those at Westboro, and how you could equate anything that I have said to them and their hate-speech is pretty sad.

 

Perhaps you should re-read what I have said.

 

Good day.

 

I am not equating your view with theirs. I disagree with your supposition regarding choice and gave examples of religious hate mongering regarding this topic.