Is man's nature violent or peaceful?

[Karl]

Hehe Karl you really need to get out of your head some time. So you are saying that young children who haven't yet fully formed a sense of "I" can't experience love? you have this all so backward.

 

Infants can't. Even after they have formed a sense of identity they are still completely unaware of a concept such as love. They experience whatever they experience, warmth, food, cuddles, smells, kisses, noises, shapes, colours, movement. When they are hungry they cry, when they feel alone they cry, when they are too hot/cold/tired they cry. Their connection to the parent is an entity they recognise which takes away their discomfort and then they feel pleasure.

 

You are an advanced battery designer if I remember rightly, so, if I said to you that I want you to put some energy in a container you would assume I meant a battery. However, imagine that you didn't know what a battery was, or how it worked and I came over and asked you to scoop up some energy and put it in a box. What would you have to ask ? You would need specific concretes with definitions, but if you asked me for those and I said that there was no need for you to know concretes because energy was just everywhere, in everything, so it should be pretty easy for you to find it and package it so I could use it to power my tricycle or give me a bit of a pep up on a morning when I was feeling tired.

 

How woukd you react ?

[Jetsun]

Infants can't. Even after they have formed a sense of identity they are still completely unaware of a concept such as love. 

 

Ok they haven't formed the mental concept or created the word for their experience yet, but that doesn't mean that their experience of "love" which is registered as sensation in the body is somehow not real, of course it is real! it has measurable effects on the babies body, wellbeing and development, it just hasn't been named or reduced down into a mental concept yet. 

[Karl]

Ok they haven't formed the mental concept or created the word for their experience yet, but that doesn't mean that their experience of "love" which is registered as sensation in the body is somehow not real, of course it is real! it has measurable effects on the babies body, wellbeing and development, it just hasn't been named or reduced down into a mental concept yet. 

 

It registers the perception of its sensory apparatus and associates those sensations with an entity that it has become familiar with. This is still a perceptual development. It is the mother that feels love for the child and thus does what she can to make her child happy and therefore improves her own happiness as the child thrives.

 

I don't want to mechanise the emotional experience here, but these are the roots in reality.

[vonkrankenhaus]

"Love" is "gravity" - which is YinYang.

 

Modern idea "love" is an acquired concept.

 

In terms of original question about human nature - is it violent?

 

Look at oldest "artwork" available.

 

Do we see "war" and "murder" of human beings depicted?

 

30,000 years ago - did humans make cave paintings of big wars?

 

There is not one.

 

Then look at "art" of more recent "civilizations".

 

Ancient Egypt - pictures of wars?

 

Yes.

 

Today in the media, movies, TV - wall-to-wall violence, murder, and war.

 

So we have gone from ZERO images of war to nearly ALL images of war.

 

And all of our programming and education is saying "we" are inherently violent and competitive.

 

As an excuse for what has been done to people.

 

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[Marblehead]

Then look at "art" of more recent "civilizations".

Isn't it interesting that the more civilized we become the more wars we have?

[Karl]

I think you might be confused if you think love is gravity.

 

We have much larger populations, fixed homes and industrial scale warfare. We long gave up hunting with spears and animal spirits which adorned the walls of caves, it's inevitable that the newest obsession would be depicted.

 

We are competitive but also readily able to work in groups towards individual goals but with a negotiated purpose. We are all capable of violence if we are threatened, but that goes for any animal on the planet if it has to defend itself.

 

I'm not sure quite where you are going ?

 

[vonkrankenhaus]

Re:

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"Isn't it interesting that the more civilized we become the more wars we have?"

-----

 

Civilization is the domestication and control of humanity.

 

And a major part of that is war.

 

War to establish it, and war to maintain it.

 

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[vonkrankenhaus]

Re:

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"I'm not sure quite where you are going ?"

-----

 

That appears to be correct.

 

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[Marblehead]

Re:

-----

"I'm not sure quite where you are going ?"

-----

 

That appears to be correct.

 

-VonKrankenhaus

That happens with me a lot.  No idea where I am going.

[Karl]

Re:

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"Isn't it interesting that the more civilized we become the more wars we have?"

-----

 

Civilization is the domestication and control of humanity.

 

And a major part of that is war.

 

War to establish it, and war to maintain it.

 

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

 

We are 'domesticated' by choice and civilisation does not need to be controlling. War is only necessary as defence against viable threats or direct attack.

 

I'm not sure if you mean our current states and ruling elite, or you think it's all pre-determined.

 

 

[vonkrankenhaus]

Re:

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"We are 'domesticated' by choice and civilisation does not need to be controlling. War is only necessary as defence against viable threats or direct attack."

-----

 

I have a bridge I am selling.

 

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[Karl]

Re:

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"We are 'domesticated' by choice and civilisation does not need to be controlling. War is only necessary as defence against viable threats or direct attack."

-----

 

I have a bridge I am selling.

 

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

 

That's why I asked if you thought this situation was inevitable ? I noticed you didn't answer that question. Mind you I find that happens a lot around here so it's hardly suprising ;-)

[vonkrankenhaus]

Re:

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"That's why I asked if you thought this situation was inevitable ?"

-----

 

It is not inevitable.

 

But it is predictable, and was predicted many times.

 

You yourself can turn it around, end it.

 

Please do that.

 

There are better things we all could be doing.

 

I'm doing them right now.

 

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[3bob]

a nearly unlimited multi-dimensional matrix can fully manifest the simple but powerful truth throughout same...whereas a more limited matrix can not, yet they both have the same core of essence.

[Karl]

Re:

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"That's why I asked if you thought this situation was inevitable ?"

-----

 

It is not inevitable.

 

But it is predictable, and was predicted many times.

 

You yourself can turn it around, end it.

 

Please do that.

 

There are better things we all could be doing.

 

I'm doing them right now.

 

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

 

This is true, it's our methods that differ. I don't do wishing.

[Karl]

a nearly unlimited multi-dimensional matrix can fully manifest the simple but powerful truth throughout same...whereas a more limited matrix can not, yet they both have the same core of essence.

 

You might say that-but I couldn't possibly comment.

 

'Multi dimensional matrices' I think I have some in my garage.

[doc benway]

Is man's nature violent or peaceful?

 

 

 

On one side, there's the Dalai Lama claiming from a book The Art of Happiness, that humanity is naturally gentle and kind.

 

On the other side are Christians telling us that we are fallen humans who are full of sin.

 

 

 

Which side is the truth? I'm confused.

 

Both sides are true, in my observation.

 

When we look at the history of mankind we see violence - there is no questioning that fact. And we also see peace.

At the root of violence is the illusion that we exist as separate beings. This can be looked at as fundamental ignorance (Buddhism) or original sin (Christianity). As soon as there is a distinction of me vs you, of me vs the environment, of us vs them - that is violence, as Jiddu Krishnamurti argued quite convincingly. This is the foundation for the "golden rule" in Abrahamic religions and Bodhicitta, in Buddhism. In Daoism, principle of taiji would tell us that the experience of peace is only known due to the potential for violence and vice versa - the two define one another. They cannot exist independently.

 

There is a level of human understanding and experience in which that separation of me from my environment, of me from you, is an illusion. When the truth in that is seen, there is the spontaneous arising of great love and peaceful intent towards all other living beings. When we meet holy people and sages who have deep inner spiritual connection, we consistently observe them to by joyful, peaceful, and loving. When that lack of separation is a part of our life, there is no reason to manifest violent intent as things are simply as they are. Does that mean the sage is never violent? Not necessarily, as long as we are human we have the potential to react to a situation from a position of ignorance or self-preservation (which, in and of itself, is a form of ignorance as when we try and pinpoint the existence of an independent self we cannot find it). I would argue that perfection is not a human characteristic (and it is! but that's for another discussion).

 

Both violence and peace are characteristics of the human experience. 

I think most would agree that peace is a more "enlightened" quality.

However, wrath, which appears as a violent expression of love, can also be a manifestation of enlightened qualities. 

[vonkrankenhaus]

Re:

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"When we look at the history of mankind we see violence - there is no questioning that fact."

-----

 

That's his-story, and only the things that made it into his story.

 

It's also not the history of mankind that we have access to.

 

It's the history of civilizations.

 

Our grasp of the past and human evolution is about like "Planet of the Apes" movie.

 

It is a manufactured history - the story he tells you.

 

Check out "his story" about the Gulf of Tonkin, 9/11, Martin Luther King's death - all bogus, just fictions.

 

Taught in schools.

 

Compare depictions of war or violence at Lascaux caves vs ancient Egypt or HBO.

 

Find me a cave painting or other depiction that predates the last Ice Age and shows a "war".

 

 

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[Old River]

Compare depictions of war or violence at Lascaux caves vs ancient Egypt or HBO.

 

Find me a cave painting or other depiction that predates the last Ice Age and shows a "war".

 

 

THE ESQUIMOS HAVE NO WORD FOR "WAR"

 

Trying to explain it to them

Leaves one feeling ridiculous and obscene.

Their houses, like white bowls,

Sit on a prairie of ancient snowfalls

Caught beyond thaw or the swift changes

Of night and day.

They listen politely, and stride away

 

With spears and sleds and barking dogs

To hunt for food. The women wait

Chewing on skins or singing songs,

Knowing that they have hours to spend,

That the luck of the hunter is often late.

 

Later, by fires and boiling bones

In steaming kettles, they welcome me,

Far kin, pale brother,

To share what they have in a hungry time

In a difficult land. While I talk on

Of the southern kingdoms, cannon, armies,

Shifting alliances, airplanes, power,

They chew their bones, and smile at one another.

 

                                                    ~ Mary Oliver

[vonkrankenhaus]

Re:

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"This is true, it's our methods that differ. I don't do wishing."

-----

 

If you met me.

 

You would shit your pants.

 

After thinking that.

 

And then seeing the reality.

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[Karl]

Re:

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"This is true, it's our methods that differ. I don't do wishing."

-----

 

If you met me.

 

You would shit your pants.

 

After thinking that.

 

And then seeing the reality.

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

 

I've no idea what that means. It sounds like flapping lips and chest puffing to me and I treat it as such.

[vonkrankenhaus]

Re:

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"I've no idea what that means. It sounds like flapping lips and chest puffing to me and I treat it as such."

-----

 

It's truth.

 

Truth leads to What Is.

 

That is, beyond your ideas.

 

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[Karl]

Re:

-----

"I've no idea what that means. It sounds like flapping lips and chest puffing to me and I treat it as such."

-----

 

It's truth.

 

Truth leads to What Is.

 

That is, beyond your ideas.

 

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

 

Boring.

 

Something is either true or it isn't. It's very much in keeping with my ideas. :-) A is A; a thing is a thing; what is, is.

[doc benway]

Re:

-----

"When we look at the history of mankind we see violence - there is no questioning that fact."

-----

 

That's his-story, and only the things that made it into his story.

 

It's also not the history of mankind that we have access to.

 

It's the history of civilizations.

 

Our grasp of the past and human evolution is about like "Planet of the Apes" movie.

 

It is a manufactured history - the story he tells you.

 

Check out "his story" about the Gulf of Tonkin, 9/11, Martin Luther King's death - all bogus, just fictions.

 

Taught in schools.

 

Compare depictions of war or violence at Lascaux caves vs ancient Egypt or HBO.

 

Find me a cave painting or other depiction that predates the last Ice Age and shows a "war".

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

 

I can't tell you if war existed before the last ice age.

It did exist in North America prior to the European invasion.

 

Whether in our nature or a consequence of our development as a "civilized" species, violent does exist in human experience today.

That is why I referred to it as fact.