Can qi be felt by anyone?

[lessdaomorebum]

[i consider this thread closed now. I will no longer reply to or even read posts here (stopped somewhere on pg 13). If you would like to contact me, send me a PM, though I am not sure if I will be at this site often.]

 

 

 

 

Boring, rambling post

 

Society for the Chee Numb.

 

I first studied the internal arts just over a quarter century ago. After a few years I gave up because since I was a kid I had had messed up posture, and that just wasn't compatible with this stuff. Not a lazy slouch cured by someone saying "Sit up straight!" Rather, thoracic kyphosis. I had a visible hunch in my teens and twenties; not like Quasimodo, but it was a chunk of muscle. It has improved over the years due to certain things I have done, but it is still pretty stiff and I can not sit or stand truly straight. I can not sit cross-legged due to tight hips, which I and others theorize either as the cause or the result of the kyphosis. This is a soft tissue issue, not a bone issue.

 

I can't feel chee. Never could. I think this may be because of my kyphosis (I know how important the back is in terms of chee), but that is just speculation. Some of my classmates could feel chee in a serious way. My teacher was very welcoming of my skepticism, though I think he considered me to be a little slow in the chee-head

 

If I do standing stake (站樁), the musculature around my thoracic area seizes up within minutes, and can even be numb right along the spine by ten minutes or less. Decades of poor neuron firing habits.

 

I was listening to an interview recently with John Upledger, son of the osteopath of the same name who brought craniosacral therapy to the masses. It came up in the interview that some people just can't seem to feel the craniosacral rhythm -- their own or another person's.

 

Maybe some people just can't feel chee, in spite of considerable practice? I had a super teacher, and some of my classmates made good progress. I know that some people take to it quickly, while others take more time. There is a tai chi teacher in Canada on Youtube who's been doing tai chi for I think 30+ years and says chee, in the sense of meridians and such, is not something he has felt or thinks is real.

 

I would feel a few wriggles here or there, but if I wasn't expecting anything, I would have thought of them as random nerve firings. My teacher was big on the idea of not telling students what to expect, and telling them not to expect chee to manifest in a certain way. That's all very nice, but if you went to a gym or went jogging, and months or years later had no sense of improvement, how long do you think you would stick with it? The enjoyment of the process comes out of the improvement. If you learned drawing or piano and never improved, you would not enjoy it. The process is enjoyable because we learn.

 

If there are meridians and whatnot, if I could heal people with chee, well then I would like to be able to feel chee. I have known a few sane and sober persons who assure me they feel chee in a concrete way and can work with it and such -- and known many others who just bs-ed their chee ability, IMHO. Lots of other people take the Reiki approach of just imagine you can feel chee, even if you can't, but that's not my style. I did the first two levels of Reiki, and while my class partner for each level (two different people) reported feeling things when I worked on them that made me think they had dropped acid, I felt it was all a ridiculous scam (maybe scam is a bit harsh, as that implies intention to cheat; the teacher seemed to believe what he was doing was useful).

 

I started doing cheegong on my own a few weeks ago (no money for class right now), and am feeling some more wriggles here and there than in the past, and now an electromagnetic feeling in one posture, but I am wondering what I can do to really figure this out. Maybe it is just about getting the back beaten into shape, or maybe it is something else. I know the idea is that everyone has chee and your chee is flowing if you are still alive, but are you convinced that everyone can get to the point where they can feel _and_ manipulate chee? If not, I would just do tai chi. Tai chi is fun for me, healthy, and my back is good enough now that I can do it with some improvement and not a lot of tension.

 

I welcome thoughts from knowledgeable persons.

 

PS Please don't tell me to talk to my body, listen to my body, feel my body, dissolve the tension, ask my body what is wrong or why it is angry, et cetera. I can't  .  I've been that route before, with counseling and hypnosis (having read books that suggested that my back could be caused by something in my head) and nothing came of it. My body had nothing to say, except "%^&!, you want me to write another check?" I can tell any other part of my body to relax, and it will to some extent, but that area won't. The only time I am mostly unaware of my thoracic tension is when I am lying on my back.

Edited July 26, 2016 by lessdaomorebum

[RiverSnake]

It took me about 4 years of daily practice, about 1hr everyday of Qigong before I could feel It consistently. When it became a daily phenomena I could no longer deny its existence.

[lessdaomorebum]

It took me about 4 years of daily practice, about 1hr everyday of Qigong before I could feel It consistently. When it became a daily phenomena I could no longer deny its existence.

Thank you for your reply. If it came out of my tai chi practice, which I enjoy for its own reasons, then four years or eight would be fine with me. But qigong I've never been into. It was always something I did, and have now picked up again, for the purpose of chee. I don't like qigong forms in themselves. Four years is way too long for me to do something only for that reason. Way back when I had a teacher, he felt one could get there through tai chi alone, but said qigong would very much expedite things, so that is why I did and now again am doing it.

Edited May 16, 2016 by lessdaomorebum

[lessdaomorebum]

For perspective on how I am thinking about this, I will say this as well: if I had the money, I would travel around to a handful of qigong healers I've heard are supposed to be qi-supermen, get a chee healing, and see if I can feel their energy in a concrete way -- not just, "Master's hands are very warm." I'm a show me kind of person. Of course, if they could loosen up my back, that would be something as well.

[RiverSnake]

Tai Chi and Qigong have a lot in common. Increased sensitivity will also increase your martial skill. Standing postures like Wu Chi posture is Qigong but also is a kind of standing meditation that can be used to refine your physical alignment for Tai Chi and thus also enhance your martial technique. Don't treat these practices as separate, they are highly complimentary.

[小梦想]

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Edited August 11, 2018 by 小梦想

[Spotless]

Lessdaomorebum -

 

The essence of Qi Gong is the movement of Qi from settled or settling patterning and a refreshing of it with flow and unpatterened un-inhibited Qi.

 

In reality it does not matter if your spine is straight or not - the consequence of breaking up patterned energetic restriction and creating flow - this constant practice will lead to a flow into all parts capable of flow - this means all atoms and beyond all atoms.

 

The patterned restrictions gain influence with each day and in each mind loop and in every belief and position we carry and cling to and habituate to.

 

Take care though not to believe their is no relief from this - their is not a spoiled mind or a mangled body that cannot be healed in whole from due diligence in this endeavor of constant renewal - each new clarity within the systems playing upon one another - removing what is commonly referred to as stagnant Qi and replacing it again and again.

 

But it is so much more than "replacing stagnant Qi" - it is breaking the patterns in which it calcifies - it is establishing meridians of increasingly immense light and vibrance.

 

This light will eventualy so pervade your system beyond all concept and explaination - you have only to be consistent and diligent and ask within you that the patterns which hold you will fall and fade and die and leave your space.

 

Believe in nothing - hold no pattern, reduce no flow to conform to conception - brave simply practice - again and again and again not as some burden - it will be no burden - it is a miraculous practice.

 

Skip the notion that still practice is the best - their is no best - do allow guidance - but enjoy a Qi Gong practice that is helpful to you.

For you from what you have said - all movement for perhaps 5 years? You will know when stillness practice brings you to it.

 

The dogma of various practices is related to the lineage and the progress of the teacher and teaching - there is much dogma surrounding certain practices - and some is not so much dogma as it is simply for the various body types and what they have come up with.

 

You work with what you have for now - as you progress it will clearly matter less and less the constraints you are dealing with - it is simply beyond words what this practice can bring.

 

Its fruits are not in terms of Qi Power - it is in clear feeling, clear seeing, nimble fluidity of energy un-encumbered in patterns of noise and corrupting flow patterns. We are at variance with ourselves - Qi Gong can rid us of this - it can break and rebreaking emerging tension / patterning - it can break down long standing diversion and imbalance - it can dissolve fear and willful clutching - long standing battle fields - have the intent to do this.

 

All the very best to you!

Edited May 16, 2016 by Spotless

[CelibacySeeker]

4 years ? You must be kidding me. Everybody can feel Qi on the spot if they doing things right. 

[RiverSnake]

4 years ? You must be kidding me. Everybody can feel Qi on the spot if they doing things right. 

 

Edited May 16, 2016 by OldChi

[cheya]

Hi LDMB (great screen name),

One of the most amazing energy wizards I know has a pretty good kyphosis going on… doesn't seem to hamper him one whit…  But, if you want to reduce a kyphosis, my understanding as a bodyworker is that you actually need to work on your gut, lengthening the distance between your sternum and pelvis in front. This allows your ribcage to rise and will permit your back to straighten out.  If you are tight/short in front, those muscles act like a bow string, and your back is the bow, forced into a bent shape by the tight strings in front. There are specific bodywork techniques that can help with this. Alternatively, you might check out Eric Goodman's Foundation Training, which is another way to work on it, strengthening what he calls the posterior chain. His method seems to help just about everything structural.

 

Re feeling chi/chee, I can recommend the Tai Chi Ruler practice DVD put out by Masterworks International. It's supposed to be one of the fastest ways to feel chi, and it's been amazing for me. You might also check out Scott Meredith's book Juice: Radical Taiji Energetics, which is his wild introductory guide to developing internal energy.  He's got some really helpful raps on how to develop your ability to feel and move chi. 

 

Good luck!

 

 

 

 

[liminal_luke]

Feeling chi is very cool, but hardly the be-all-end-all of practice.  If you´re enjoying what you´re doing and getting benefit then I wouldn´t get hung up on whether or not you feel chi or not.  Maybe someday you will.  Maybe not.  

 

I´m reminded of a story Sifu Jenny Lamb told of a student who didn´t experience any movement with the Yi Gong practice for months, when most students begin to move right away.  The student merely held the basic posture and patiently waited.  After some months of this, the movement did happen and turns out the student was actually much more advanced than the students who had been moving from day one.

 

Here´s my point.  You might think that you´re "behind" other students who feel chi easily and have healthy backs.  And you might be wrong.

[lessdaomorebum]

Tai Chi and Qigong have a lot in common. Increased sensitivity will also increase your martial skill. Standing postures like Wu Chi posture is Qigong but also is a kind of standing meditation that can be used to refine your physical alignment for Tai Chi and thus also enhance your martial technique. Don't treat these practices as separate, they are highly complimentary.

Thank you. I do understand all that. But I can't do standing, wuji or other arm postures, as noted.

[lessdaomorebum]

Hi

 

I have been told that some people just struggle to feel anything, but that this isn't a bad thing. It helps the focus to stay where it is needed to be instead of going to where the sensations occur.

 

One thing that might help, if you stick with it for a little while is focusing on your breathing. Actively try to make your breathing as silent as possible. This in turn will help your mind go into the right state, and slow your breathing down too.

 

Sit any way you want, or do whatever posture you want, as long as you are comfortable, and quiet the breath. Make it as silent as possible, to the point where you can't even feel the air moving in or out. In this state you may feel the sensations that have alluded you all these years. 

 

It takes a while for your body to be comfortable breathing this way though. Hope it helps.

Thank you for your reply. This and many other breathing meditations have been tried. My breathing is physically restricted. A bit of breathing is good for me, but too much of it is counterproductive, as weird as I know that sounds.

[lessdaomorebum]

 

Its fruits are not in terms of Qi Power - it is in clear feeling, clear seeing, nimble fluidity of energy un-encumbered

 

 

Thank you for your reply.

[lessdaomorebum]

Hi LDMB (great screen name),

One of the most amazing energy wizards I know has a pretty good kyphosis going on… doesn't seem to hamper him one whit…  But, if you want to reduce a kyphosis, my understanding as a bodyworker is that you actually need to work on your gut, lengthening the distance between your sternum and pelvis in front. This allows your ribcage to rise and will permit your back to straighten out.  If you are tight/short in front, those muscles act like a bow string, and your back is the bow, forced into a bent shape by the tight strings in front. There are specific bodywork techniques that can help with this. Alternatively, you might check out Eric Goodman's Foundation Training, which is another way to work on it, strengthening what he calls the posterior chain. His method seems to help just about everything structural.

 

Re feeling chi/chee, I can recommend the Tai Chi Ruler practice DVD put out by Masterworks International. It's supposed to be one of the fastest ways to feel chi, and it's been amazing for me. You might also check out Scott Meredith's book Juice: Radical Taiji Energetics, which is his wild introductory guide to developing internal energy.  He's got some really helpful raps on how to develop your ability to feel and move chi. 

 

Good luck!

Thank you for your reply. I will look into the three methods you suggested. It is interesting to hear of a kyphotic energy master, perhaps even oddly inspirational.

 

For what it is worth, I have had 17 Rolfing sessions, about that number each of NMT and chiropractic, more than a dozen of craniosacral, and some other stuff. I have tried a large number of strengthening and stretching exercises specifically for the issues I have, which haven't worked because the fundamental problem seems to me to be about muscle education rather than strength or flexibility, though Feldenkrais and like modalities have not been of any help at all.

 

The thing that has been of the most benefit is the way of walking taught in chapter eight of Esther Gokhale's _8 Steps to a Pain-free Back_. It is the best movement education I have found. It naturally loosens the hip flexors.

 

Interestingly, most body workers thought they were done with me even when I couldn't straighten up and used to be in pain (no pain now)! A minority of body workers realized there was more going on. Most people in any profession or personal endeavor focus too much on their success and knowledge; growth comes from looking at our failures and ignorance, IMHO.

Edited May 17, 2016 by lessdaomorebum

[lessdaomorebum]

Feeling chi is very cool, but hardly the be-all-end-all of practice.  If you´re enjoying what you´re doing and getting benefit then I wouldn´t get hung up on whether or not you feel chi or not.  Maybe someday you will.  Maybe not.  

 

I´m reminded of a story Sifu Jenny Lamb told of a student who didn´t experience any movement with the Yi Gong practice for months, when most students begin to move right away.  The student merely held the basic posture and patiently waited.  After some months of this, the movement did happen and turns out the student was actually much more advanced than the students who had been moving from day one.

 

Here´s my point.  You might think that you´re "behind" other students who feel chi easily and have healthy backs.  And you might be wrong.

Thank you for your reply. I see I was not clear in my initial post. This is not about qi-envy. This is about realistic expectations and wanting to figure things out. If I went to drawing class and couldn't seem to learn _at all_ while other students were learning some amount of drawing, it would not be about feeling "behind", but rather thinking I need to figure out how I can learn to draw (unless that is impossible, which is why I mused that maybe some people can't ever feel qi).

 

I spent three years in the early 1990s studying with a teacher I thought then and think now was top notch, assiduously practicing Yang style tai chi, doing the long form four times a day. I did bagua. I did qigong, to the extent I could motivate myself to since I don't enjoy the doing of any qigong form I have tried (unlike tai chi). I tried to do standing stake, but that was a problem as I mentioned in my first post. Tai chi had some definite benefits for me, but it was very uncomfortable due to my kyphosis and tight hips; tai chi did not loosen these areas in the least, and that seems to me to be the key here, or at least one key with other possibly unknown keys. I could bore you with further explanations, but the point is I spent three years doing this, had physical difficulties with the practice, and felt nothing in terms of qi. By way of analogy, if someone is tone deaf, that is going to take something away from their enjoyment in playing piano (to say nothing of their ability). Hence, I am just trying to understand if I might be qi-deaf.

Edited May 17, 2016 by lessdaomorebum

[lessdaomorebum]

4 years ? You must be kidding me. Everybody can feel Qi on the spot if they doing things right. 

Well, then, how can I do things right? That's why I am here.

[wilfred]

remember a lot of this will be based on karma. and that direct perception of energy is a product of mindfulness/awareness above all else. some people can feel a lot of energy off the bat, even as children, some people may have to practice for years even decades before they develop this faculty of mind.

 

the right type of mind training could speed up the process significantly - ie four elements or fixing concentration inside the body, feeling a variety of different objects. i believe once the pathways are clear enough, the mind is refined, a lot of our reality becomes a pure energetic experience. part of that is that we ourselves generate a bigger, stronger, energy field. this is how we can break our attachments at the deeper levels - when we perceive the various energetic processes at work directly.

[lessdaomorebum]

remember a lot of this will be based on karma. and that direct perception of energy is a product of mindfulness/awareness above all else. some people can feel a lot of energy off the bat, even as children, some people may have to practice for years even decades before they develop this faculty of mind.

 

the right type of mind training could speed up the process significantly - ie four elements or fixing concentration inside the body, feeling a variety of different objects. i believe once the pathways are clear enough, the mind is refined, a lot of our reality becomes a pure energetic experience. part of that is that we ourselves generate a bigger, stronger, energy field. this is how we can break our attachments at the deeper levels - when we can perceive the various energetic processes at work directly.

Thank you for your reply. I am not a fan of karma, at least as I understand it. Much too Catholic

 

Do you have any suggestions for the mind training that you say could speed up the process significantly?

[lessdaomorebum]

I see now that this should have been posted in Daoist Discussion. Oops!

 

Thanks to all of you for taking the time to share your suggestions.

[wilfred]

Thank you for your reply. I am not a fan of karma, at least as I understand it. Much too Catholic

 

Do you have any suggestions for the mind training that you say could speed up the process significantly?

 

yeah there is a lot of baggage attached to the k word think of it more as 'natural talent' perhaps, not everyone is born with the same 'talents'.

 

as far as mind training, it's just purification whatever angle you're coming at it from. the practices i'm familiar with are meditations based on stabilizing concentration inside the body. this is the same process as anything that's grounding, just faster and more direct in terms of purification.

 

i do think the right meditation practices are fundamental to developing this faculty of being able to feel energy, the reasoning being two-fold - speeding up the purification process and training the mind to perceive different forms of energy. if you google buddhist four elements meditation you should get some relevant content. not sure if it'll be approached in the same way as my practice but its all good nonetheless. or if you want to message me i can share some details of the online course my teacher runs that covers the healing/purification meditations in detail. very powerful stuff.

[DreamBliss]

I didn't read this thread and just scanned the first post.

 

I think trying too hard to do anything pushes it away. I struggle to astral project, probably because I have tried too hard to do it.

 

It could have something to do with what is called talent or skill. I think of it as some folks catch on to things quicker than others.

 

When I started following Matthew Cohen's excellent Qi Gong Fire and Water I could feel my chi. For me it is a warmth in the hands, a sort of pulsing that gets stronger as the hands are brought closer together.

 

Try some different exercises/teachers, maybe that Fire and Water DVD. Release, let go, and loose yourself in the movements. Don't try to feel anything, don't expect to feel anything. Just be open and receptive. Release attachment to feeling or not feeling. Focus on your breathing, put all your attention on your movements. I think you will feel chi in time.

 

Treat all martial arts, including yoga, as a sort of moving meditation. Put your awareness on your body and its movements. Be fully present with that.

Edited May 17, 2016 by DreamBliss

[CelibacySeeker]

Well, then, how can I do things right? That's why I am here.

 

Just put the hand before you like you would holding balloon, or big ball or tree and the Qi will start flow. (post natal tho). Keep it for like 5 minutes and the thick coating of thickened air will start emulsification around you, that the Qi but it will be around your as you did not have opened channels to it will take time to be absorbed. 

 

 

If you think it's too hard to keep hands that way, move your hands like you would clap a hands with arm spread before you but without clapping and slowly repeat the movement of closing and opening the chest. . 

 

 

Also there are different feelings of manifestation of the Qi and Qi itself. 

Edited May 17, 2016 by CelibacySeeker

[cheya]

For what it is worth, I have had 17 Rolfing sessions, about that number each of NMT and chiropractic, more than a dozen of craniosacral, and some other stuff. I have tried a large number of strengthening and stretching exercises specifically for the issues I have, which haven't worked because the fundamental problem seems to me to be about muscle education rather than strength or flexibility, though Feldenkrais and like modalities have not been of any help at all.

 

The thing that has been of the most benefit is the way of walking taught in chapter eight of Esther Gokhale's _8 Steps to a Pain-free Back_. It is the best movement education I have found. It naturally loosens the hip flexors.

 

Well, if you liked Gokhale's method and it helped, you may LOVE  Foundation. They are very much in the same ballpark. Goodman just put out a new book yesterday (True to Form), a major update, so if you do get a book, get that one. Check out his youtube TedX talk to get an idea what he's talking about. When I first watched that, I thought his rap was great, but I wasn't going to be doing that exercise. Well, I am doing that exercise and the next one up as well,  and just those two are helping multiple issues. (And I didn't think my back or forward head were my problems!)

 

"Fixing" forward head and kyphosis has been one of my major professional obsessions for many years, and I admit, I haven't been very successful long term. I could get folks looking a little straighter going out of the session, but next session they were usually right back in their old posture. The belly work (not just releasing psoas, but the entire 6 pack area) was the game changer for my work, but it still demanded attention and focused changes in daily habits from the client, and few people actually care about their posture that much until they are in real trouble. I'm surprised and delighted in how much change Foundation Training seems to make in posture with relatively little effort/time. I'm still just doing his "30 day challenge" and pleased but still somewhat mystified at the widespread changes and how much easier movements are that have been causing problems for awhile now.

Hope it's helpful to you!

 

If you want to check out that energy wizard, pm me.   

[liminal_luke]

Hi Cheya,

 

Thanks for the foundation training information.  I want to try to do that one-founder-a-day 30 day challenge and see if it makes a difference.  Watched the video and it wasn´t clear to me: when you bring your hands up a little more are you holding your breath or breathing regularly?

 

Thanks,

Liminal