Getting Started

[Kongming]

So for those of us interested in Quanzhen/Longmen/Neidan Daoism, what is it that we can do to get started without being formally part of a lineage or having a teacher? I imagine general efforts like cultivating virtue, self-discipline, dispassion, reading Daoist texts, etc. can be done on one's own, but how about some practices?

 

Any form of meditation recommended for beginners? Does neigong/qigong factor into a Quanzhen/Longmen regimen? Any basic or preparatory actions to take in relation to neidan? Any good sources to learn more on the practical elements?

[Taoist Texts]

Any good sources to learn more on the practical elements?

 

 

[Kongming]

 

 

 

Thanks, I've read both of these works before, perhaps its time I re-read them. These do indeed give a broad overview of the matter, but what I am looking for is some insight into how things work today. Say I went to China, joined the Quanzhen order, and found a teacher, what would I be doing? I hear that an initial part of Daoist training is learning to chant along with the liturgy, but since I cannot currently participate in the liturgical tradition, I was wondering what perhaps some of the first steps would be? Ethical rectification, fixing ones diet, etc. are all part of general discipline, but what of initial practices? Zuowang and some sort of neigong perhaps?

 

BTW Eskilden's other book (Daoism, Meditation, and the Wonders of Serenity) looks interesting, I'm currently waiting for a paperback and/or cheaper edition though.

Edited May 17, 2016 by Kongming

[Taoist Texts]

So for those of us interested in Quanzhen/Longmen/Neidan Daoism, what is it that we can do to get started without being formally part of a lineage or having a teacher?

You see right off the bat, there is something missing. What is it that you look to achieve eventually? You have to start at the end and think your way to the beginning. If you are unclear about the end it means you will start in the wrong direction.

 

 

I imagine general efforts like cultivating virtue, self-discipline, dispassion, reading Daoist texts, etc. can be done on one's own, but how about some practices?

Actually it is the other way around.

 

Any form of meditation recommended for beginners?

A student of mine went to Liu Yi-ming's monastery to talk with the keeper monk and the latter thought him 2 exercises: recital of DDJ and sitting up to 3 hours visualizing breath in the body.

Does neigong/qigong factor into a Quanzhen/Longmen regimen?

Yes as a distant second to ethics without which it will not work.

Any basic or preparatory actions to take in relation to neidan?

Get clear on what you want eventually.

 

Any good sources to learn more on the practical elements?

When you done with Eskildsen you will find all you need here

 

http://home.sandiego.edu/~komjathy/Homepage_of_Louis_Komjathy/Publications.html

[Taoist Texts]

Thanks, I've read both of these works before, perhaps its time I re-read them. These do indeed give a broad overview of the matter, but what I am looking for is some insight into how things work today.

They dont;). Again, i would advise to formulate your goal concretely and explicitly in your mind and then look at how and whether the things work or dont towards that goal.

 

Say I went to China, joined the Quanzhen order, and found a teacher, what would I be doing? I hear that an initial part of Daoist training is learning to chant along with the liturgy, but since I cannot currently participate in the liturgical tradition, I was wondering what perhaps some of the first steps would be?

Meditation, temple chores and chanting.

 

Ethical rectification, fixing ones diet, etc. are all part of general discipline, but what of initial practices? Zuowang and some sort of neigong perhaps?

 

Exactly.

BTW Eskilden's other book (Daoism, Meditation, and the Wonders of Serenity) looks interesting, I'm currently waiting for a paperback and/or cheaper edition though.

I read whats available on googlebooks. It is brilliant

 

 

Also you may want to get in touch with Walker, he knows everything about these things.

Edited May 18, 2016 by Taoist Texts

[Kongming]

You see right off the bat, there is something missing. What is it that you look to achieve eventually? You have to start at the end and think your way to the beginning. If you are unclear about the end it means you will start in the wrong direction.

 

Well, it may be a bit lofty, but honestly my ultimate goal is to see the path to the end, to become a 真人 and/or 天仙 and attain the Dao. I suppose more short term goals on the path would be to attain self-mastery and a completely virtuous life.

 

 

A student of mine went to Liu Yi-ming's monastery to talk with the keeper monk and the latter thought him 2 exercises: recital of DDJ and sitting up to 3 hours visualizing breath in the body.

 

I read Zhang Boduan giving an instruction of visualizing a golden ball of energy at the lower dantian while sitting in meditation. Is this what your student was taught or something similar?

 

 

When you done with Eskildsen you will find all you need here

 

http://home.sandiego.edu/~komjathy/Homepage_of_Louis_Komjathy/Publications.html

 

How about the material in Wang Liping's Ling Bao Tong Zhi Neng Nei Gong Shu? Is this a legit source and worth working from?

[doc benway]

So for those of us interested in Quanzhen/Longmen/Neidan Daoism, what is it that we can do to get started without being formally part of a lineage or having a teacher? I imagine general efforts like cultivating virtue, self-discipline, dispassion, reading Daoist texts, etc. can be done on one's own, but how about some practices?

 

Any form of meditation recommended for beginners? Does neigong/qigong factor into a Quanzhen/Longmen regimen? Any basic or preparatory actions to take in relation to neidan? Any good sources to learn more on the practical elements?

 

I apologize for saying it but I think Daoist neidan practices without a teacher are not worth the time.

Particularly if your goal is "to see the path to the end, to become a 真人 and/or 天仙 and attain the Dao."

Expend the time, money, and effort to get personal instruction, books and experimentation are not the way to do it.

[Kongming]

I apologize for saying it but I think Daoist neidan practices without a teacher are not worth the time.

Particularly if your goal is "to see the path to the end, to become a 真人 and/or 天仙 and attain the Dao."

Expend the time, money, and effort to get personal instruction, books and experimentation are not the way to do it.

 

No need to apologize, I agree with your sentiment.  I certainly hope to find a teacher and plan on going abroad for that purpose in the near future, but in the meantime was hoping to not let the time go to waste and do what I can to get started, even if it is not starting with neidan proper but just preparation for neidan, hence this thread.

[Taoist Texts]

Well, it may be a bit lofty, but honestly my ultimate goal is to see the path to the end, to become a 真人 and/or 天仙 and attain the Dao.

Excellent

I suppose more short term goals on the path would be to attain self-mastery and a completely virtuous life.

Yes. And even closer goals would be to escape two traps: one is the neidan trap and second is the usual tourist traps. Actually thats one and the same trap, hehe)

I read Zhang Boduan giving an instruction of visualizing a golden ball of energy at the lower dantian while sitting in meditation. Is this what your student was taught or something similar?

Similar

How about the material in Wang Liping's Ling Bao Tong Zhi Neng Nei Gong Shu? Is this a legit source and worth working from?

Heck if i know. Have not seen it. If it is anything like this

 

http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/41105-recorded-sayings-of-a-true-man-ma-dan-yang/

 

then it is, if not - then not.

[doc benway]

This is one of the better books in English I've come across:

http://www.amazon.com/Original-Tao-Foundations-Mysticism-Translations/dp/0231115652

[doc benway]

This is one of the better books in English I've come across:

http://www.amazon.com/Original-Tao-Foundations-Mysticism-Translations/dp/0231115652

 

PS - the other thing I think it is worth working on if you are new to Daoist arts and looking to start practicing on your own is standing meditation, zhan zhuang. This is a great introductory book on the subject. Standing alone, for a long enough time, will open you and prepare you for more advanced personal instruction whenever that comes to pass.

[Spotless]

You are on the right track to seek out practice and Steve was on the right track in advising it as he did - finding a teacher.

 

It is a good idea to formulate some goals for many reasons but you cannot know what those goals really mean so they can also be an obstruction.

 

As an example:

The idea of the completely virtuous life - one tends to think of it as an application of virtuous behavior until it is ingrained - this is an incorrect view. We think in terms of the application of ethics and morality - this is false thinking. We think in terms of doing to ourselves when undoing is what is your actual intent.

 

Self mastery is not overcoming our shortcomings and organizing ourselves along guidelines - from an un-awakened standpoint this is the reference - the idea that we "do" - and from a theoretical un-awakened standpoint of not-doing we are still radically cemented to our fear and conceptualizations.

 

It is practice that unfolds us from within - wherein we come to leading a virtuous life. In the Awakened state one sees correct thinking.

It is not ethical nor moral - it is in the Now - past and future bend and distort relative xperience - this is why all sorts of ethics and morals are attached to the inculcations we recieve from birth.

 

"Correct thinking" is incredibly powerful and almost completely misunderstood - when correct thinking is reached one has attained Awakening - but until that step - correct thinking is spoken of throughout all of the teachings.

 

We are always "doing" in the future and gauging ourselves on the past - this creates inner termoil and a disparity between us and our bodies and all and everything. We are always judging which creates puffery and veils our view of light and love and supports the view that we are our identifications and what we are judging is other. Correct thinking moves beyond concept - it is fostering the habit that will be embodied at once in Awakening.

 

Learning not to be in the future with our minds - not to allow futures to loop in our head - noticing judgement and allowing it to cease - learning neutrality and stillness in meditation - constantly breaking unnatural emerging patterning in our energetic systems - constantly refining (not by "doing"') our lighter bodies - and constantly increasingly finding embodiment - fostering non-trance embodiment.

 

When we have reached Awakening we move swiftly to correct thinking and we are more or less in a constant state of OKness - this is mistranslated as Bliss - but it is a oneness with the universe and Now.

 

This is one first gigantic sustained step - and it does not mean we necessarily exude "correct action" all the time - we will still have a residual of patterns from our former identified personality patterns and these can be fairly pesky though they tend to fade during the following years.

 

It is in your pre-awakened state that your intent in practice can be enormously helpful in that not habituating to volatile extremes and willfulness will greatly enhance the ability to carry greatly expanded energetic embodiment then and later.

Edited May 23, 2016 by Spotless

[Spotless]

In so far as moving somewhere in order to find a teacher - be aware that a great many master teachers are now everywhere to be found - I say "a great many" in the sense that they are far less rare than in decades and centuries past.

 

Also - many teachers in Asia - Awakened and otherwise have lingering beliefs about Western students - they often omit certain "secret teachings" and are off put by them and not nearly as engaged as they might otherwise be. It is easy not to know this even after years of being with them -'and often the teachings are modified for the perceived shortcomings of the Western student.

 

Yet - among students - Western students can be and often are the most dedicated and the most intense - partly because they have not inherited their path and partly because they do not take so easily for granted that they understand when they do not understand.

 

Buddha At The Gas Pump has a long list of Awakened teachers all over the world - and all of them have been interviewed so that you can see feel and view them prior to contacting them.

 

That said - learning the languages and being able to read first hand without the warping of translation - meeting teachers in other countries and being in practice and perhaps finding your teacher there can be incredible experiences.

 

All the best!

Edited May 23, 2016 by Spotless

[freeform]

Great advice so far.

 

Careful about going to China to find a teacher - it's very rare to find a good one.

 

Standing was mentioned excellent advice, but beyond the very beginning also requires a teacher.

 

I'd also recommend stretching and getting fit. Always overlooked!

Edited May 23, 2016 by freeform

[Kongming]

This is one of the better books in English I've come across:

http://www.amazon.com/Original-Tao-Foundations-Mysticism-Translations/dp/0231115652

 

Thanks, I've read the core text which I think is excellent but have never read Roth's book. Would you say some of the insights provided by Roth outside of the core text are relevant for practice and hence worth reading?

 

 

In so far as moving somewhere in order to find a teacher - be aware that a great many master teachers are now everywhere to be found - I say "a great many" in the sense that they are far less rare than in decades and centuries past.

 

Also - many teachers in Asia - Awakened and otherwise have lingering beliefs about Western students - they often omit certain "secret teachings" and are off put by them and not nearly as engaged as they might otherwise be. It is easy not to know this even after years of being with them -'and often the teachings are modified for the perceived shortcomings of the Western student.

 

Yet - among students - Western students can be and often are the most dedicated and the most intense - partly because they have not inherited their path and partly because they do not take so easily for granted that they understand when they do not understand.

 

Buddha At The Gas Pump has a long list of Awakened teachers all over the world - and all of them have been interviewed so that you can see feel and view them prior to contacting them.

 

That said - learning the languages and being able to read first hand without the warping of translation - meeting teachers in other countries and being in practice and perhaps finding your teacher there can be incredible experiences.

 

All the best!

 

Thanks, this is something I've heard before and it is something to keep in mind, but my reasoning here isn't based on merely a desire or logical conclusion but based upon some dream messages I've received which, to my mind, has informed me to go abroad for these purposes. Actually I have multiple goals to be fulfilled by trying to go abroad (I plan on trying to get a degree in Mandarin as a second language in Taiwan to allow me to master Mandarin and acquire the qualifications necessary to teach English abroad, another goal of mine. I am also interested in learning the guqin and finding a teacher for that purpose as well.)

 

Hopefully with right effort, mastering the language, and a bit of luck I will find some legitimate teachers who won't pigeonhole me as just another Westerner but will be able to see my sincerity (though before all that I will need to succeed in getting accepted into the degree/scholarship program I am looking into.)

 

 

Great advice so far.

 

Careful about going to China to find a teacher - it's very rare to find a good one.

 

Standing was mentioned excellent advice, but beyond the very beginning also requires a teacher.

 

I'd also recommend stretching and getting fit. Always overlooked!

 

Thanks. I learned zhan zhuang from a mixture of video and book instructions, and while not ideal I hope that this will be effective until I find a teacher (I think there may be some in my local area so will have to look into it.) 

 

My current daily regimen is to do seated meditation in the morning for half an hour and in the evening if circumstances permit, to do zhan zhuang two or three times a day for 10 minutes at a time, and to do a series of qigong/neigong exercises, namely Bone Marrow cleansing/healing sounds that I learned from Cohen's video, Damo Mitchell's "Ji Ben Qigong" and his instructions on Wuxing qigong, and finally Feng Zhiqiang's Hunyuan qigong. Aside from this I practice abstinence, try to eat healthy, study, and use art/music as a means to have aesthetic and/or contemplative experiences (such as guqin mentioned, but also others) which I see as a useful aid in purification and toward the path.

[Spotless]

Thanks, I've read the core text which I think is excellent but have never read Roth's book. Would you say some of the insights provided by Roth outside of the core text are relevant for practice and hence worth reading?

 

 

 

Thanks, this is something I've heard before and it is something to keep in mind, but my reasoning here isn't based on merely a desire or logical conclusion but based upon some dream messages I've received which, to my mind, has informed me to go abroad for these purposes. Actually I have multiple goals to be fulfilled by trying to go abroad (I plan on trying to get a degree in Mandarin as a second language in Taiwan to allow me to master Mandarin and acquire the qualifications necessary to teach English abroad, another goal of mine. I am also interested in learning the guqin and finding a teacher for that purpose as well.)

 

Hopefully with right effort, mastering the language, and a bit of luck I will find some legitimate teachers who won't pigeonhole me as just another Westerner but will be able to see my sincerity (though before all that I will need to succeed in getting accepted into the degree/scholarship program I am looking into.)

 

 

 

Thanks. I learned zhan zhuang from a mixture of video and book instructions, and while not ideal I hope that this will be effective until I find a teacher (I think there may be some in my local area so will have to look into it.) 

 

My current daily regimen is to do seated meditation in the morning for half an hour and in the evening if circumstances permit, to do zhan zhuang two or three times a day for 10 minutes at a time, and to do a series of qigong/neigong exercises, namely Bone Marrow cleansing/healing sounds that I learned from Cohen's video, Damo Mitchell's "Ji Ben Qigong" and his instructions on Wuxing qigong, and finally Feng Zhiqiang's Hunyuan qigong. Aside from this I practice abstinence, try to eat healthy, study, and use art/music as a means to have aesthetic and/or contemplative experiences (such as guqin mentioned, but also others) which I see as a useful aid in purification and toward the path.

Sounds very good!

[Synchronic]

How about the material in Wang Liping's Ling Bao Tong Zhi Neng Nei Gong Shu? Is this a legit source and worth working from?

 

 

I've heard good stuff about Wang Liping, so without reading it myself I would say yes.

 

 

Also here is a free copy of a book written by someone I would consider the great living Qigong master known to the public.

 

Dr Yan Xin, who has performed in many studies published in the West, wherein he has been able to use his external qi to change the decay rate of radioactive particles, influence DNA/RNA, among other miraculous achievements... he even healed George Bush Senior (when he was President of the USA, and Bill Clinton).

 

 

 

https://www.scribd.com/doc/101462079/Yan-Xin-Secrets-Benefits-of-Internal-Qigong-Cultivation