What purpose does virtue and merit have in practice?

[Clear'Waters]

I have read a lot of text from Taoist to Buddhist explaining how ones achievements cannot be fully 'achieved' unless one has merits... What is your interpretation? What of virtue? 

[wilfred]

virtue is the basis for all practice.

 

practice is only about bringing the mind to 'right view' to perfect our virtue, so in theory you don't need to practice if you're behaving yourself at all times, not reacting etc.

 

merit gets a little more complicated, but my understanding is its like positive karma points. there must be an energetic component because they can be shared around too. seems like the more you have the more likely you'll be gaining some of the deeper insights into no-self etc. again it's about bringing the mind around to right view, knowing clearly what is going on.

[Karl]

Only the objectivists definition:

 

 

“Value” is that which one acts to gain and keep, “virtue” is the action by which one gains and keeps it.

 

 

Man has a single basic choice: to think or not, and that is the gauge of his virtue. Moral perfection is an unbreached rationality—not the degree of your intelligence, but the full and relentless use of your mind, not the extent of your knowledge, but the acceptance of reason as an absolute.

 

Merit is based on the concept of justice, that a man deserves/does not deserve some value. Man is the judge and men are the judges.

Edited May 21, 2016 by Karl

[Taoist Texts]

 who wants to become immortal must gain 30 points of merit. It is said that someone who gathers 3,000 points of merit becomes inimortal in a day. According to the chapter “Merits and Demerits” of the ^Jiiyan zong: Doing good lengthens life whereas doing evil shortens it. Deities metes out recompense or punishment unerringly.

[wilfred]

one can understand the concept of karma quite clearly if we look at practice, the path etc as an interrelated cycle that goes

 

virtue > concentration > insight

 

they all feed into eachother. at a basic level, without virtue (behaving yourself, being a good person) you will be accumulating unwholesome karma (incoherence) which manifests as an energetic charge that hinders your ability to deeply concentrate (sharpen the mind) through meditation. so you can do all the practice in the world, but if you're still doing harmful things it's like swimming upstream.

 

this doesn't mean we'll suddenly be able to drop our conditioning just by knowing negative states of mind are bad for us. so a practice is useful as far as it can start to purify and grind away the worst areas of our character. this could take tremendous effort to start out with and certainly the right sort of practice/teaching to get results. people talk a lot about energy this, energy that, chakras etc but it is the refinement of character that is the true marker of our progress. how do we feel in ourselves and by extension how are we treating other people?

[Clear'Waters]

one can understand the concept of karma quite clearly if we look at practice, the path etc as an interrelated cycle that goes

 

virtue > concentration > insight

 

they all feed into eachother. at a basic level, without virtue (behaving yourself, being a good person) you will be accumulating unwholesome karma (incoherence) which manifests as an energetic charge that hinders your ability to deeply concentrate (sharpen the mind) through meditation. so you can do all the practice in the world, but if you're still doing harmful things it's like swimming upstream.

 

this doesn't mean we'll suddenly be able to drop our conditioning just by knowing negative states of mind are bad for us. so a practice is useful as far as it can start to purify and grind away the worst areas of our character. this could take tremendous effort to start out with and certainly the right sort of practice/teaching to get results. people talk a lot about energy this, energy that, chakras etc but it is the refinement of character that is the true marker of our progress. how do we feel in ourselves and by extension how are we treating other people?

Yes I agree.. Thats why in northerner lineages they generally practice with the Xing before Ming. 

[dawei]

Dao De Jing:  

 

The Sacred Book of the Way, transmission by Flowing Hands:

 

CHAPTER 21

 

The greatest virtue is to follow the Dao and only Dao.

Oh unfathomable Dao, ever elusive and intangible.

But yet within, there is substance and form.

It is the essence of the Ten Thousand Things.

This is very real, so here lies a true path to follow.

It was there at the beginning, as it shall be at the end, Thus I know the ways of creation.

[thelerner]

To gain power without equal measures of virtue makes a person wobble.   Maybe this isn't Taoism, but imo without gains in kindness, humility, empathy, caring of community and humanity.. personal power corrupts, the ego blows up and unnecessary tragedy follows.  

 

Listening to wisdom, dharma speeches, of my elders and seniors is as important a practice as any meditative art.

[Spotless]

It is not about behaving well and having virtue is not necessary to ones practice and no "points" are gained and stored - but in trying to convey relatively cool energetic truths with words is difficult and also heresy to our heritages.

 

We tend to have this all backwards - we generally come from a backwards religious heritage and cannot see past the nose that has been placed on us. And much of this that was written - was written under the rule of a dictator - so speaking to everyone like children was about as much as one could convey and still live.

 

In plain words - the intent to grow "virtuously" is helpful and a general requirement of sorts for practice to begin and continue.

But what is "virtuous"? In the sense of practice it is: to grow in refinement without attachment to the growth. This is nearly perfectly said and at the same time completely open to misinterpretation - so it is put into the couch of relative moral concepts and lost in behavioral prescriptions.

 

Socrates was involved in a great deal of discussion regarding virtue - and however beside the point those discussions might seem - the extraordinarily germain theme in them is what he attained in knowing that "the only thing I know is that I know nothing".

 

If you Know Nothing you have clung to nothing - or you are now in an Un-clung state. In reality one does not somehow grow without clinging to nearly everything - but with even vague proper intent in practice - releasing is constantly what you are asking for even though "your daily bread" may come in the form of painful trials and great pressure. And in that pressure we may be driven to even greater and greater clinging - until we see bit by bit here and there that the clinging is the problem.

 

When the true seeker says something to the effect "give me this day my daily bread" in prayer or the more general " give us this day our daily bread" it is not asking God for food - it is asking God for what would grow us and help us to Become, and ever increase the light of wisdom and clarity - so we may recieve beautiful wonders or the crush of the wheel - all food of the same type.

 

Behaving does nothing - it is like putting on a hair shirt or polishing apples for the teacher - cheap tricks and incorrect thinking - somewhat disgusting (beating up your body and bribing). In the seeking of constant daily bread - constant exposure to our weaknesses - we wear away at the cementing we imply and project into and onto everything.

 

Compression does several things - as we are compressed and ground we are heated and there is invariably a release - we are like a spring compressed and released - a certain charge is built up and released again and again. This is karma. "Points" are "gained" in this repetition - the frequency becomes increasingly refined. Seeking out an increase in these cycles is intent IN practice. This is how one may "attain" fast "good" karma.

 

This is not a build up or an accumulation of karma - it is a refinement and refining enlightening - a "higher" frequency - one increasingly less cluttered with conceptual constraint - judgement and so forth. Increasingly a more open compassionate and patient awareness.

 

This does not happen by "behavioral modification" - though once the notion of "correct thinking" actually is clarified somewhat - it may act in this way. It is certainly not in any sense "behaving well" in the sense of someone wanting to behave well in order not to recieve punishment - (this activity will actually attract punishment because what you resist you will draw to you - and fear based avoidance is not a path).

 

Fear is what gives the three headed demons their glory - without fear of them (resistance) they are like tiny flying no-see-um's.

 

Karma is not something stored in a piggy bank - and it is not gained because you behaved well - it is better summarized as an achieved state or frequency. Each attracts its own different "daily bread".

 

In this line of thinking - a story might say - "his/her practice has brought a great deal of karmic refinement - in the next life they will surely meet with a more refined, rich and complex life".

Edited May 22, 2016 by Spotless

[Karl]

To gain power without equal measures of virtue makes a person wobble.

 

:-) to gain a value without virtue is to act immorally. It is to gain a value dishonestly.

 

I would suggest your list of virtues are flawed, but your premise is correct.

[thelerner]

:-) to gain a value without virtue is to act immorally. It is to gain a value dishonestly. I would suggest your list of virtues are flawed, but your premise is correct.

Hmnn... kindness, humility, empathy, caring for community and humanity.. who needs such 'flawed' virtues..

[Karl]

Hmnn... kindness, humility, empathy, caring for community and humanity.. who needs such 'flawed' virtues..

 

These are the virtues you believe are important to you. I'm not asking you to justify them, but I can prove they are flawed as primary virtues and in 'humility' there is a virtue that belongs nowhere. Let's not be without kindness, empathy and caring....I'm not chucking out the baby with the bath water here, those things are good, but, if you think about it, these virtues first require judgement otherwise you will give your allegiance to a tyrant, your knife to a murderer, your credit card to a thief and your children delivered into the care of a child molester. Somebody, surely must first 'merit' your kindness and empathy and therefore they must 'deserve' and that is a judgement and therefore justice must be a primary virtue.

 

You cannot even begin to give anything unless you provide value and that requires productivity. If you are entirely dependent on other men and not your own efforts then your 'kindness' is actually their kindness. If you are not honest, then you are promising values that you have no right to. It's very easy for someone to be caring if you don't earn your way honestly.

[Spotless]

We think we employ virtue - that it is a "doing".

 

Virtue is an achieved element as well as naturally intrinsic.

The Christian/Muslim view is the opposite and we have to over come base nature.

 

Ask a so called hero after the fact of doing something "heroic" - they all say they simply acted - (not from virtue - but from the state at which they were at - and in many cases they were not really aware of what they were doing until the events were over).

Edited May 22, 2016 by Spotless

[Karl]

We think we employ virtue - that it is a "doing".

Virtue is an achieved element as well as naturally intrinsic.

The Christian/Muslim view is the opposite and we have to over come base nature.

Ask a so called hero after the fact of doing something "heroic" - they all say they simply acted - (not from virtue - but from the state at which they were at - and in many cases they were not really aware of what they were doing until the events were over).

 

Virtue is our personal rule book. So, we might save a drowning person despite the danger to ourselves because we believe we can save that person-we don't jump into the water as a measure of our need to sacrifice ourselves alongside the drowning man. We jump into that water because we hold life as a value-our own life as the measure of all measures-and we make a judgement about the drowning man-the value being the saving of his life. We might be less inclined to jump into that water to save a mass murderer.

[Spotless]

We are like an old pot - what is cooked up contains some patina of flavor from the pot but the pot does not choose when and how to give it its flavor. And the pot does not choose what is put into it.

 

Our karma - state of beingness - determines the incoming and out goings of the pot - we are under the illusion of control and decision.

 

People are often known to stand by in a group setting and not intervene in some atrocity such as rape or drowning - because if only one person does not act and then another - it is what the whole group often does. This is an extremely well known phenomenon.

 

What happens when one acts within the Now of a moment is completely mechanical - it is simply not a choice.

 

This is why Awakening and states beyond are such a prize - and yet even in many of these states - we are still mechanical - particularly in moments requiring immediacy. Other forces are already at work well before the "arrival" of the "immediacy" moment and we are already set for action more than is possible to convey - these things can be seen but not by the sleeping eye.

 

It all appears to be some philosophy we adopt and strive to emulate - but how we came to adopt that philosophy is not by choice but by our state of beingness - and it will generally move from simple conceptualization to eventual encagement - and it is worn off and falls away as our karmic state progresses beyond it. Like a pot in which certain elements and lopsided combinations are no longer attracted into its interior - things once considered sweet are now bitter and foul.

Edited May 22, 2016 by Spotless

[wilfred]

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Moderator Notice

 

just a note that the Newcomer board will be more heavily moderated than other sections when it comes to taking threads off-topic.

 

the OP has asked how virtue is relevant to spiritual practice. please don't turn this into another 'Karl Thread' (that goes for Karl and anyone replying to him) as we have plenty of those on the other boards.

 

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[Karl]

It's always by choice. We might not understand exactly why we make the choice to act, it might be well submerged in our subconscious, but everything we do is by choice and choice alone. We must first make the choice to live, it isn't an automatic action, we have to choose what we need in order that we live and choose what rules we will use to achieve those goals. Sometimes we make calamitous decisions based on unsound reasoning, or just over estimate our abilities and then we come a cropper. Other times a risky action comes right and we are hailed as heroes through no real intention to be one.

[Spotless]

Virtue is far more seen in "intent":

 

It is asking the universe - all - to open us - this is the most virtuous intent - this as a base is also the epitome.

It will lead to increasingly increasing patience, increasingly increasing compassion, increasingly increasing neutrality and increasingly increasing stillness. It will provide powers beyond measure and sight beyond scope.

Edited May 22, 2016 by Spotless

[Karl]

###############

Moderator Notice

 

just a note that the Newcomer board will be more heavily moderated than other sections when it comes to taking threads off-topic.

 

the OP has asked how virtue is relevant to spiritual practice. please don't turn this into another 'Karl Thread' (that goes for Karl and anyone replying to him) as we have plenty of those on the other boards.

 

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[Spotless]

Regarding the K issue - I have employed the "ignore button" on the K issue long ago and rarely look to see what our junior philosopher has conjured up.

 

For those of you who do not know what the "ignore" feature is - go to your preferences and you can put various names on a list that will ignore their posts. When reading a particular topic everything they post will be diminished to only one single line that states that a post exists there by them - if you wish to see what they have to say - you can click on it and take a peek to see if they have as yet come out of their rut and actually have something to say or if they are still well within their personal atmosphere and not yet ready for prime time in your awareness.

 

I have around 20 on my list - though quite a few have been banned completely and could be removed from it.

Edited May 22, 2016 by Spotless

[liminal_luke]

I like what Spotless says, if I understand correctly, about virtue being more of a frequency than a behavioral prescription.  When I´m in a period of more intense practice, I notice how everything about me changes -- particularly how I am with other people.  It´s just something that happens as a result of my practice.  The practice comes first, and then I start acting differently, seemingly automatically.

 

I don´t think it would work the other way around.  There´s no way I could force myself to behave the way I do after practice without having done the work first.

[wilfred]

I like what Spotless says, if I understand correctly, about virtue being more of a frequency than a behavioral prescription.  When I´m in a period of more intense practice, I notice how everything about me changes -- particularly how I am with other people.  It´s just something that happens as a result of my practice.  The practice comes first, and then I start acting differently, seemingly automatically.

 

I don´t think it would work the other way around.  There´s no way I could force myself to behave the way I do after practice without having done the work first.

 

i think for the most this is right and like i said an effective practice will start to bring the mind around to right view.

 

the other thing i would propose in relation to understanding the importance of virtue would be a direct teaching or transmission of wholesome states of mind. this could be game-changing in itself and greatly further our understanding of why we'd want to change our attitudes/behaviours.

 

on retreats i've attended the dhamma discourses are laced with a transmission of what a certain quality of mind actually feels like. when it came to the one specifically on virtue i was grinning ear to ear afterward and slept like a baby that night. pretty remarkable considering how unsettled i was through the week dealing with 'stuff'. it certainly demonstrated what i needed to be working on to get into a better space. as westerners we're often very stubborn and need to feel what's on the other side of our BS to start letting go, improving our conduct or practicing in the first place.

[roger]

I have read a lot of text from Taoist to Buddhist explaining how ones achievements cannot be fully 'achieved' unless one has merits... What is your interpretation? What of virtue? 

 

There are two theories about the nature of justice- utilitarian and retributivist.

 

Retributivist justice is punishment.

 

Utilitarian is the idea that justice should simply be that which SERVES, the highest good for everyone.

 

Typically on earth most people believe in retributivist justice.

 

But actual justice, divine justice, is utilitarian. It's simply what is the highest good for everyone.

 

Karma is the law of giving and receiving- what you give, you receive, multiplied.

 

This law is utilitarian justice. It WORKS. It SERVES. It's BEST.

 

But it should never be thought of as a punishment (retributivist justice).

 

Retributivist justice is UNLOVING.

 

Utilitarian justice is LOVING.

Edited May 22, 2016 by roger

[Clear'Waters]

I appreciate everyone who commented on this thread to help me further understand what significance virtue and merits have.. Thank you...

[wilfred]

I appreciate everyone who commented on this thread to help me further understand what significance virtue and merits have.. Thank you...

 

showing gratitude! that's virtue right there