Buddhism and Daoism

[Clear'Waters]

What is the relationship between the Buddhist meaning of emptiness and the Daoist meaning? Are they inherently the same? Do both of the teachings have a concept of the dao?  

[Jonesboy]

I believe they are one and the same.

 

Void=form is the same as saying the Dao is the mother of the Ten Thousand Things.

[Marblehead]

The following is a cut/paste from another member:

 

 

 

Clear'Waters asks an excellent question which necessitates a very specific answer that is not found yet on the interwebs.

 

Quote

What is the relationship between the Buddhist meaning of emptiness and the Daoist meaning? Are they inherently the same? Do both of the teachings have a concept of the dao?

 

 

In Taoism the Emptiness creates 1 which then creates 2 and 3 which then creates the whole universe, as referred to in the previous response: Emptiness as the "mother of the Ten Thousand Things." This is from the Tao Te Ching.

 

In fact that teaching is from music theory and so to say Emptiness equals form in Taoism has the specific meaning of the Tai Chi as the form of 1:2:3:4 which is also the Pythagorean Tetrad from music theory - the Octave, Perfect Fifth and Perfect Fourth.

 

The secret of the Emptiness is then the secret of "one hand clapping" as the Ch'an Koan is called - or what in Buddhism is called the "inner sound method." This secret form is then based on the complementary opposites of the Tai Chi. You can study the alchemy books Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality for details and also the Hui Ming Ching, the source book for the first one. Also Wang Mu's Foundation of Internal Alchemy.

 

The teacher I studied with - a Shaolin trained alchemist qigong master teaches "the simplest is the most powerful" and how the 1 from the Tao te ching is the consciousness that goes into the Emptiness (the Wu Chi) which then creates the yin/yang 2:3 energy of the Tai Chi. The consciousness is our spirit light as visualization.

 

The Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality book states very clearly that only the "absolute void" enables a person to see light outside their body - the light "radiates" whereas the internal light that we see with our eyes closed is not the real Emptiness, rather it is limited to the body qi or "yin qi" or psychic lunar energy.

 

So going back to music theory the form 1:2:3:4 that is the emptiness means that yin and yang change their value based on the order of resonance as a spacetime vortex (the emptiness). In music theory frequency is 1:2 and 2:3 and 3:4 as subharmonics and then time is the inversion. So we learn music theory as a wavelength but what is covered up is that the geometry of space is noncommutative or "complementary opposites."

 

Buddhism is based on Vedic logic which is a phonetic based language of dualistic symmetric math that still covers up this Taoist and Pythagorean secret of complementary opposites. The "three gunas" of India - the oldest philosophy of India - tamas, raja, and sattva, also originate from the music complementary opposites of the octave, perfect fifth and perfect fourth. So this older music theory truth of yoga training in India is from the "three gunas." All human cultures use this octave, perfect fifth and perfect fourth natural harmonics as the basis of spiritual trance harmonics - even babies cry in these simple number frequencies as being most consonant.

 

So in the West based out of Vedic logic this secret was covered up by the simple fact that 2 as a number does not go into 3 and so the Perfect Fifth harmonic ratio does not go into the octave. Anyone learning basic music theory learns that the Perfect Fifth plus the Perfect fourth equals the octave but this is a lie that covers up the Tai Chi form as the Emptiness! Why is it a lie? Because in order to "add" the Perfect Fifth and Perfect Fourth you actually "multiply" as a logarithm assuming a commutative or symmetric mathematical logic! This means to subtract the Perfect Fourth (yin) from the Perfect Fifth (yang) you then divide and the result is 9/8. This can only work by using the harmonics over the 1 value - ignoring the subharmonics of 2/3 and 3/4.

 

So let's convert the yin and yang to geometry - 2/3 as subharmonic is C to F or yin and 3/2 as harmonic is C to G as yang. Both are a perfect fifth energy! In fact this is the secret of alchemy - to resonate your yin energy as a complementary opposite into yang energy! But again this empirical truth is covered up by the dualistic symmetric logic of the West starting out of Brahmin Vedic logic. So then 2/3 is not allowed because it can not be converted into commutative symmetric logic and so 2/3 as yin is "doubled" to 4/3 so that it is no longer a Perfect Fifth subharmonic and instead is a Perfect Fourth overtone harmonic.

 

Do you see what just happened here? The "one" value that creates the octave was changed! The "one" was changed to the "two" doubled to 4 as the numerator. So with the harmonic series you can not use 4/3 as an overtone harmonic since 3 is the denominator and 3 is not an octave "same note" multiple of the one. You can have 2/1 as the octave of one or 1/2 and 3/2 as the yang Perfect Fifth but not 4/3. So this is called the "phantom tonic" in Western music theory - the Perfect Fourth can not be "created" from the One - why? Because the whole point of Western music theory, which is the foundation of Western symmetric logic, is to "contain" the Emptiness into a material geometry.

 

So then what happens when we change the "one" to the means of doubling the subharmonic as the new "phantom tonic" so that the 2 is now the numerator as 4/3? Again we get the Perfect Fifth as 3/2 x the Perfect Fourth as 4/3 = the Octave as 2/1. This would appear to be a balanced harmony of yin and yang and Emptiness - but again this covers up the real mystery of the Emptiness and instead converts it into a commutative or symmetric logic. So as I stated the difference between them is 9/8 by dividing them as a logarithm and so 9/8 is the major 2nd interval or "whole step" of the scale - the goal of this scale is to "compromise" the empirical truth of the infinite Yang as 3/2 - the infinite spiral of fifths. So then 9/8 as six whole tones has a value which is slightly over the value of the octave! They do not line up! 9/8 cubed then approximates the square root of two. This is the secret cover up of the truth of how form is Emptiness. The Emptiness is turned into a "divide and average" symmetric logic that is from Vedic Brahmin cipher symmetric geometry logic.

 

 

Quote

monism in arithmetic. - Project Euclid

projecteuclid.org/download/pdf_1/euclid.chmm/1428680539

Project Euclid

by H Schubert - ‎1903 - ‎

Cited by 1

- ‎

Related articles

Besides the

commutative

law one other follows from the idea of .... suppose from the high

mathematical

attainments of that people, but by Hindu

Brahman

priests at the end of the fourth century after ... whence is derived the English

cipher

.

 

 

O.K. so what do we have if we remain true to the empirical reality of the "infinite spiral of fifths" or the "true yang" secret of alchemy? As I stated the subharmonic is 2/3 as yin or C to F geometry and the overtone harmonic is 3/2 as yang or the Perfect Fifth C to G. It's the same C as the root tonic - no need to "change" the tonic by doubling 2/3 to 4/3. Instead we embrace the fact that with the same C as the 1 we have different geometric values based on the direction of the spacetime. This is called noncommutative geometry - or asymmetric complementary opposites of the Tai Chi. This is the real secret of music theory - the perfect fifth can never be the same value divided equally into the octave and yet they harmonically resonate as complementary opposites infinitely as the Emptiness. There is no commutative logarithmic value to infinity as a materialistic containment or Perfect Fifth plus Perfect Fourth equals Octave based on wavelength. There is instead a harmony based on time-frequency energy. Everything is energy - even in the Emptiness. This is called the "yuan qi" as the formless source of the Universe.

 

 

Quote

the primal qi” (li

yuanqi

理元氣), since they are themselves

formless

.

 

 

This secret was rediscovered by Louis de Broglie in quantum physics where energy is also based on time-frequency inverse proportions from Pythagorean philosophy, the foundation of Western science. What de Broglie discovered is that for Einstein as matter goes towards the speed of light then the frequency energy increases but also the time was wavelength increases and this violates the Law of Pythagoras - the original complementary opposites of time and frequency. So de Broglie discovered that frequency is to time as momentum (mass x velocity) is to wavelength. This also meant that there has to be a "pilot wave" that comes from the future and so is "faster than light" or superluminal and it harmonizes in phase with the matter going slower than the speed of light. This is called the Law of Phase Harmony by Louis de Broglie and it is being confirmed now that in fact quantum entanglement is the foundation of 3D spacetime.

 

 

Quote

 

Chinese Metaphysics and its Problems - Page 42 - Google Books Result

https://books.google...isbn=1107093503

Chenyang Li, ‎Franklin Perkins - 2015 - ‎Philosophy

Later Daoists used the term “primordial qi” (

yuanqi

元氣) to designate the state ... space and

formless

qi that preceded the existence of the ordered cosmos.

 

 

So this explains how precognition happens by doing the Taoist alchemy training based on the secret of the Tai Chi form equaling the Emptiness and also how when the energy is strongest as light frequency then the time is the shortest.

 

Again for the actual practice as per the body-mind meridians you need to study the Taoist alchemy texts I referred to which also are inspired by the Emptiness of Buddhism as well. But the thing is that Buddhism was a reform to Brahmin religion and so as Buddhism spread into China it adapted to Taoism and hence the syncretic overlap. As I've stated there is an older tradition of India of the "three gunas" that is also based on the actual music empirical truth of complementary opposites as the Tai Chi.

[Clear'Waters]

The following is a cut/paste from another member:

 

 

 

Clear'Waters asks an excellent question which necessitates a very specific answer that is not found yet on the interwebs.

 

Quote

 

 

 

In Taoism the Emptiness creates 1 which then creates 2 and 3 which then creates the whole universe, as referred to in the previous response: Emptiness as the "mother of the Ten Thousand Things." This is from the Tao Te Ching.

 

In fact that teaching is from music theory and so to say Emptiness equals form in Taoism has the specific meaning of the Tai Chi as the form of 1:2:3:4 which is also the Pythagorean Tetrad from music theory - the Octave, Perfect Fifth and Perfect Fourth.

 

The secret of the Emptiness is then the secret of "one hand clapping" as the Ch'an Koan is called - or what in Buddhism is called the "inner sound method." This secret form is then based on the complementary opposites of the Tai Chi. You can study the alchemy books Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality for details and also the Hui Ming Ching, the source book for the first one. Also Wang Mu's Foundation of Internal Alchemy.

 

The teacher I studied with - a Shaolin trained alchemist qigong master teaches "the simplest is the most powerful" and how the 1 from the Tao te ching is the consciousness that goes into the Emptiness (the Wu Chi) which then creates the yin/yang 2:3 energy of the Tai Chi. The consciousness is our spirit light as visualization.

 

The Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality book states very clearly that only the "absolute void" enables a person to see light outside their body - the light "radiates" whereas the internal light that we see with our eyes closed is not the real Emptiness, rather it is limited to the body qi or "yin qi" or psychic lunar energy.

 

So going back to music theory the form 1:2:3:4 that is the emptiness means that yin and yang change their value based on the order of resonance as a spacetime vortex (the emptiness). In music theory frequency is 1:2 and 2:3 and 3:4 as subharmonics and then time is the inversion. So we learn music theory as a wavelength but what is covered up is that the geometry of space is noncommutative or "complementary opposites."

 

Buddhism is based on Vedic logic which is a phonetic based language of dualistic symmetric math that still covers up this Taoist and Pythagorean secret of complementary opposites. The "three gunas" of India - the oldest philosophy of India - tamas, raja, and sattva, also originate from the music complementary opposites of the octave, perfect fifth and perfect fourth. So this older music theory truth of yoga training in India is from the "three gunas." All human cultures use this octave, perfect fifth and perfect fourth natural harmonics as the basis of spiritual trance harmonics - even babies cry in these simple number frequencies as being most consonant.

 

So in the West based out of Vedic logic this secret was covered up by the simple fact that 2 as a number does not go into 3 and so the Perfect Fifth harmonic ratio does not go into the octave. Anyone learning basic music theory learns that the Perfect Fifth plus the Perfect fourth equals the octave but this is a lie that covers up the Tai Chi form as the Emptiness! Why is it a lie? Because in order to "add" the Perfect Fifth and Perfect Fourth you actually "multiply" as a logarithm assuming a commutative or symmetric mathematical logic! This means to subtract the Perfect Fourth (yin) from the Perfect Fifth (yang) you then divide and the result is 9/8. This can only work by using the harmonics over the 1 value - ignoring the subharmonics of 2/3 and 3/4.

 

So let's convert the yin and yang to geometry - 2/3 as subharmonic is C to F or yin and 3/2 as harmonic is C to G as yang. Both are a perfect fifth energy! In fact this is the secret of alchemy - to resonate your yin energy as a complementary opposite into yang energy! But again this empirical truth is covered up by the dualistic symmetric logic of the West starting out of Brahmin Vedic logic. So then 2/3 is not allowed because it can not be converted into commutative symmetric logic and so 2/3 as yin is "doubled" to 4/3 so that it is no longer a Perfect Fifth subharmonic and instead is a Perfect Fourth overtone harmonic.

 

Do you see what just happened here? The "one" value that creates the octave was changed! The "one" was changed to the "two" doubled to 4 as the numerator. So with the harmonic series you can not use 4/3 as an overtone harmonic since 3 is the denominator and 3 is not an octave "same note" multiple of the one. You can have 2/1 as the octave of one or 1/2 and 3/2 as the yang Perfect Fifth but not 4/3. So this is called the "phantom tonic" in Western music theory - the Perfect Fourth can not be "created" from the One - why? Because the whole point of Western music theory, which is the foundation of Western symmetric logic, is to "contain" the Emptiness into a material geometry.

 

So then what happens when we change the "one" to the means of doubling the subharmonic as the new "phantom tonic" so that the 2 is now the numerator as 4/3? Again we get the Perfect Fifth as 3/2 x the Perfect Fourth as 4/3 = the Octave as 2/1. This would appear to be a balanced harmony of yin and yang and Emptiness - but again this covers up the real mystery of the Emptiness and instead converts it into a commutative or symmetric logic. So as I stated the difference between them is 9/8 by dividing them as a logarithm and so 9/8 is the major 2nd interval or "whole step" of the scale - the goal of this scale is to "compromise" the empirical truth of the infinite Yang as 3/2 - the infinite spiral of fifths. So then 9/8 as six whole tones has a value which is slightly over the value of the octave! They do not line up! 9/8 cubed then approximates the square root of two. This is the secret cover up of the truth of how form is Emptiness. The Emptiness is turned into a "divide and average" symmetric logic that is from Vedic Brahmin cipher symmetric geometry logic.

 

 

 

Quote

 

 

 

 

O.K. so what do we have if we remain true to the empirical reality of the "infinite spiral of fifths" or the "true yang" secret of alchemy? As I stated the subharmonic is 2/3 as yin or C to F geometry and the overtone harmonic is 3/2 as yang or the Perfect Fifth C to G. It's the same C as the root tonic - no need to "change" the tonic by doubling 2/3 to 4/3. Instead we embrace the fact that with the same C as the 1 we have different geometric values based on the direction of the spacetime. This is called noncommutative geometry - or asymmetric complementary opposites of the Tai Chi. This is the real secret of music theory - the perfect fifth can never be the same value divided equally into the octave and yet they harmonically resonate as complementary opposites infinitely as the Emptiness. There is no commutative logarithmic value to infinity as a materialistic containment or Perfect Fifth plus Perfect Fourth equals Octave based on wavelength. There is instead a harmony based on time-frequency energy. Everything is energy - even in the Emptiness. This is called the "yuan qi" as the formless source of the Universe.

 

 

Quote

 

 

 

This secret was rediscovered by Louis de Broglie in quantum physics where energy is also based on time-frequency inverse proportions from Pythagorean philosophy, the foundation of Western science. What de Broglie discovered is that for Einstein as matter goes towards the speed of light then the frequency energy increases but also the time was wavelength increases and this violates the Law of Pythagoras - the original complementary opposites of time and frequency. So de Broglie discovered that frequency is to time as momentum (mass x velocity) is to wavelength. This also meant that there has to be a "pilot wave" that comes from the future and so is "faster than light" or superluminal and it harmonizes in phase with the matter going slower than the speed of light. This is called the Law of Phase Harmony by Louis de Broglie and it is being confirmed now that in fact quantum entanglement is the foundation of 3D spacetime.

 

 

Quote

 

 

 

So this explains how precognition happens by doing the Taoist alchemy training based on the secret of the Tai Chi form equaling the Emptiness and also how when the energy is strongest as light frequency then the time is the shortest.

 

Again for the actual practice as per the body-mind meridians you need to study the Taoist alchemy texts I referred to which also are inspired by the Emptiness of Buddhism as well. But the thing is that Buddhism was a reform to Brahmin religion and so as Buddhism spread into China it adapted to Taoism and hence the syncretic overlap. As I've stated there is an older tradition of India of the "three gunas" that is also based on the actual music empirical truth of complementary opposites as the Tai Chi.

 

I have to write this down

[Jonesboy]

Here is a copy and paste from a post I wrote about thoughts, emptiness and Atman.

 

 

Confusion arises because people make statements that thoughts, emotions and sensations are not us. They come and go but are not us. I know I have said that many times myself and in a way it is true but not really

 

The first stage most people are taught is the Witness/Mindfulness. That there is separation between us and our thoughts, that they are fleeting unless we cling to them just like you said.

 

In Dzogchen they use the term Rigpa and say that we are all those thoughts, sensations and emotions and call this movement.

 

It is all energy/light.

 

So first we get to the point of separation from our thoughts. It is like we can see them float on by, they no longer attach to us and we find freedom. With increased depth the thoughts become less and less and the silence grows from within. We feel the movement of the thoughts within the silence.

 

We know this because it is like the waves hitting the beach. We experience it like the waves coming in and then we are back to being lost in thoughts as the waves reside. Over time just like the tide the water gets deeper and deeper until we are that movement, until we are that silence.

 

Now outside of our thinking we also have this body. Within the body, when people start to work with energy practices/pranayama techniques they first will notice a little energy within them. Over time this energy increases in depth and people start to feel energy hitting upon obstructions and that is when it becomes ecstatic. With still more depth one will notice that there body is energy. That the body is no different than our thoughts which is energy/light.

 

So our thoughts, emotions, sensations and our body are all energy/light. Just like a cloud each has form but in truth it is empty. It's true nature just like light or as science has shown atoms to be is emptiness.

 

The belief in an Atman, a soul according to Buddhism is not possible because a soul is a "thing" that "exists". In Buddhism the true nature of all things is emptiness. Because of that there is no soul that is made up of things residing in some place.

 

So who or what are we then?

 

Often when people first experience the light they are blinded by it. It is bright and it is all they can see. With increased depth you start to notice that the light is made up of individual streams of light. In Buddhism these are called Mind Streams.

 

A post was made in a thread asking if all Buddhas are the same. I think this will help explain some things.

 

Do Buddha now all have different individual personalities? I was always taught that there is no difference between Buddha's and the only reason they have individual names is because we gave them different names to distinguish one Buddha manifestation from another, but to view them as different "Buddha's" is to create a duality in Enlightenment.

 

 

There are no differences between one Buddha and another in terms of realization; there are differences in terms of aspirations, and so on., which give rise to differences in sentient beings karmic connections with this buddhafield and that, and so on. In short, everyone who becomes a Buddha starts out as a sentient being, and there is a unique rosary of clarity that continues from the time of being a sentient being through the attainment of Vajradhara which forms the relative basis for Buddhahood.

 

Loppon Malcom

 

So we are each these mind streams that are made up of light that's true nature is emptiness. Each mind stream has unique karmic connections that the light hits upon that gives us our individuality.

 

I hope this helps,

 

Tom

Quote Edit Options

[Bearded Dragon]

What is the relationship between the Buddhist meaning of emptiness and the Daoist meaning? Are they inherently the same? Do both of the teachings have a concept of the dao?  

 

Anything that observes the nature of reality as it is will come to the same conclusion if taken all the way. How could it not? They're all the same beast. Same beginning, same end, infinite paths inbetween.

[Clear'Waters]

Here is a copy and paste from a post I wrote about thoughts, emptiness and Atman.

Confusion arises because people make statements that thoughts, emotions and sensations are not us. They come and go but are not us. I know I have said that many times myself and in a way it is true but not really

The first stage most people are taught is the Witness/Mindfulness. That there is separation between us and our thoughts, that they are fleeting unless we cling to them just like you said.

In Dzogchen they use the term Rigpa and say that we are all those thoughts, sensations and emotions and call this movement.

It is all energy/light.

So first we get to the point of separation from our thoughts. It is like we can see them float on by, they no longer attach to us and we find freedom. With increased depth the thoughts become less and less and the silence grows from within. We feel the movement of the thoughts within the silence.

We know this because it is like the waves hitting the beach. We experience it like the waves coming in and then we are back to being lost in thoughts as the waves reside. Over time just like the tide the water gets deeper and deeper until we are that movement, until we are that silence.

Now outside of our thinking we also have this body. Within the body, when people start to work with energy practices/pranayama techniques they first will notice a little energy within them. Over time this energy increases in depth and people start to feel energy hitting upon obstructions and that is when it becomes ecstatic. With still more depth one will notice that there body is energy. That the body is no different than our thoughts which is energy/light.

So our thoughts, emotions, sensations and our body are all energy/light. Just like a cloud each has form but in truth it is empty. It's true nature just like light or as science has shown atoms to be is emptiness.

The belief in an Atman, a soul according to Buddhism is not possible because a soul is a "thing" that "exists". In Buddhism the true nature of all things is emptiness. Because of that there is no soul that is made up of things residing in some place.

So who or what are we then?

Often when people first experience the light they are blinded by it. It is bright and it is all they can see. With increased depth you start to notice that the light is made up of individual streams of light. In Buddhism these are called Mind Streams.

A post was made in a thread asking if all Buddhas are the same. I think this will help explain some things.

Do Buddha now all have different individual personalities? I was always taught that there is no difference between Buddha's and the only reason they have individual names is because we gave them different names to distinguish one Buddha manifestation from another, but to view them as different "Buddha's" is to create a duality in Enlightenment.

There are no differences between one Buddha and another in terms of realization; there are differences in terms of aspirations, and so on., which give rise to differences in sentient beings karmic connections with this buddhafield and that, and so on. In short, everyone who becomes a Buddha starts out as a sentient being, and there is a unique rosary of clarity that continues from the time of being a sentient being through the attainment of Vajradhara which forms the relative basis for Buddhahood.

Loppon Malcom

So we are each these mind streams that are made up of light that's true nature is emptiness. Each mind stream has unique karmic connections that the light hits upon that gives us our individuality.

I hope this helps,

Tom

Quote Edit Options

 

Sorry, I had to re-read this.. I would also like to thank you for posting it

[RigdzinTrinley]

very short on the buddhist concept of emptiness

 

emptiness is not a creative agent that gives rise to something, emptiness is not a thing in itself - emptiness is empty of itself

 

it is merely a method to go beyond the four ontological extremes of existence/non existence/both existence and non existence/ neither existence nor non existence

 

which means to go beyond ordinary mind that always perceives "this" or "that" - whereas rigpa sees non-seeing, that means that mind is discovered to be neitehr existent/non existent/both/neither - inconceivable, inexpressible baseless emptiness

 

as long as mind has an conceptual target such as existence/non existence etc. it is not jnana or gnosis (primordial wisdom)

 

so I have no clue what it measn that the dao gives rise to the ten thousand things but I can say with some confidence that emptiness doesn't give rise or create anything it is a teaching that shows that appearances (inside or outside) do not arise in actuality from 1)themselves 2)other 3)themselves adn other 4)neither themselves nor other (uncaused)

 

I hope this didn't make any sense

Edited May 29, 2016 by RigdzinTrinley

[Michael Sternbach]

very short on the buddhist concept of emptiness

 

emptiness is not a creative agent that gives rise to something, emptiness is not a thing in itself - emptiness is empty of itself

 

it is merely a method to go beyond the four ontological extremes of existence/non existence/both existence and non existence/ neither existence nor non existence

 

which means to go beyond ordinary mind that always perceives "this" or "that" - whereas rigpa sees non-seeing, that means that mind is discovered to be neitehr existent/non existent/both/neither - inconceivable, inexpressible baseless emptiness

 

as long as mind has an conceptual target such as existence/non existence etc. it is not jnana or gnosis (primordial wisdom)

 

so I have no clue what it measn that the dao gives rise to the ten thousand things but I can say with some confidence that emptiness doesn't give rise or create anything it is a teaching that shows that appearances (inside or outside) do not arise in actuality from 1)themselves 2)other 3)themselves adn other 4)neither themselves nor other (uncaused)

 

I hope this didn't make any sense

 

It perfectly didn't.

[Jonesboy]

Forgive me.. it wouldn't let me post it here...

Edited May 31, 2016 by Jonesboy

[Jonesboy]

very short on the buddhist concept of emptiness

 

emptiness is not a creative agent that gives rise to something, emptiness is not a thing in itself - emptiness is empty of itself

 

it is merely a method to go beyond the four ontological extremes of existence/non existence/both existence and non existence/ neither existence nor non existence

 

which means to go beyond ordinary mind that always perceives "this" or "that" - whereas rigpa sees non-seeing, that means that mind is discovered to be neitehr existent/non existent/both/neither - inconceivable, inexpressible baseless emptiness

 

as long as mind has an conceptual target such as existence/non existence etc. it is not jnana or gnosis (primordial wisdom)

 

so I have no clue what it measn that the dao gives rise to the ten thousand things but I can say with some confidence that emptiness doesn't give rise or create anything it is a teaching that shows that appearances (inside or outside) do not arise in actuality from 1)themselves 2)other 3)themselves adn other 4)neither themselves nor other (uncaused)

 

I hope this didn't make any sense

Hi RT,

 

Is it a method or a technique or the true reality of all things?

 

If we look at Form=Emptiness and Emptiness=Form... (Yes I replaced void with emptiness...) Then we can understand that the true nature of all things is emptiness.. or emptiness gives rise to the Ten Thousand things because it is those things.

 

I look at all things as light, like the rainbow reflection of the sun through glass it creates images but it is empty.

 

The Buddha talks about it like this in The Lankavatara Sutra

Further, besides understanding the emptiness of all things both in regard to substance and self-nature, it is necessary for Bodhisattvas to clearly understand that all things are un-born. It is not asserted that things are not born in a superficial sense, but that in a deep sense they are not born of themselves. All that can be said, is this, that relatively speaking, there is a constant stream of becoming, a momentary and uninterrupted change from one state of appearance to another. When it is recognized that the world as it presents itself is no more than a manifestation of mind, then birth is seen as no-birth, and all existing objects, concerning which discrimination asserts that they are and are not, are non-existent and, therefore, un-born; being devoid of agent and action things are un-born.

When it is clearly understood that there is nothing in the world but what is seen of the mind itself, discrimination no more rises, and the wise are established in their true abode, which is the realm of quietude. The ignorant discriminate and work trying to adjust themselves to external conditions, and are constantly perturbed in mind; unrealities are imagined and discriminated, while realities and unseen and ignored. It is not so with the wise. To illustrate: What the ignorant see is like the magically-created city of the Gandharvas, where children are shown, street and houses, and phantom merchants, and people going in and coming out. This imaginary city with its streets and houses and people going in and coming out, are not thought of as being born or being annihilated, because in their case there is no question as to their existence or non-existence. In like manner, I teach, that there is nothing made nor un-made; that there is nothing that has connection with birth and destruction except as the ignorant cherish falsely imagined notions as to the reality of the external world. When objects are not seen and judged as they truly are in themselves, there is discrimination and clinging to the notions of being and non-being, and individualized self-nature, and as long as these notions of individuality and self-nature persist, the philosophers are bound to explain the external world by a law of causation. This position raises the question of a first cause, which the philosophers meet by asserting that their first cause, Ishvara and the primal elements, are un-born and un-annihilate; which position is without evidence and is irrational.

 

Ignorant people and worldly philosophers cherish a kind of no-birth, but it is not the no-birth, which I teach. I teach the un-born-ness of the un-born essence of all things which teaching is established in the minds of the wise by their self-realization of Noble Wisdom. A ladle, clay, a vessel, a wheel, or seeds, or elements – these are external conditions; ignorance, discrimination, attachment, habit, karma, - these are inner conditions. When this entire universe is regarded as concatenation and as nothing else but concatenation, then the mind, by its patient acceptance of the truth that all things are un-born, gains tranquility.

http://buddhasutra.com/files/lankavatara_sutra.htm

 

Forgive me for the length but I thought this was some good stuff

[RigdzinTrinley]

yes what is emptiness? good question isn't it

[Apech]

For clarity's sake, chaps, can I point out that the Sutra quoted by Jonesboy above - the Lankavatara Sutra is a mahayana sutra which is important in the yogacara (citta-matra) - that is 'mind-only' schools of Buddhism such as Ch'an or Zen.  As such its interpretation of Buddhism is that there is an existent mind-stream and that all phenomena arise and cease momentarily in that mind stream.  Thus the phenomena themselves have no self-existence being reliant on the mind stream - citta.

 

This tradition which originates in the teachings of the great Asanga is different to the madhyamaka tradition of Nagarjuna.  Different not necessarily as being in conflict with each other but as having subtly different views on both mind and phenomena.  For instance the prasangika madhymaka would say that 'mind' itself is also empty of selfhood and thus neither existent or non-existent etc.

 

Interestingly in cross reference to RT's thread on Mipham and Rangtong/Zhentong Madhyamaka it is said that Asanga taught Zhentong Madhyamaka as a kind of esoteric yogacara teaching.  Where the continuum of buddha nature is existent but yet 'empty of other'.  This however would be a lineage stream of Zhentong which might be different to the Kagyu version which came from Maitripa via Marpa and so on.

 

Zhentong Madhyamaka would uphold that buddha-nature is existent and while it is not in relation to phenomena as a cause it is by its mere presence that which allows phenomena to appear to arise and cease - while being in itself unborn and un ceasing.

 

Returning to the theme of Buddhism and Daoism it is held by scholars that the Neo-Daoism of Wang Bi and others of the Xuanxue school 'mysterious or abstruse origin school' who held that being 'you' arose from non-being 'wu' set the intellectual scene for the easy assimilation of Buddhist philosophy in China.  Although the Daoist theme of one becomes, two, becomes three becomes the 10k things - is clearly realist - the fact that the 10k things come to be and persist in complete dependence on the Dao as both their origin and 'that-by-which-they-are' has a subtlety which is not a million miles from dependent origination.

[Kongming]

From Stephen Eskildsen's book on the early Quanzhen masters:

 

 

However, as Hachiya has astutely observed, Wang Zhe did not abide by the thoroughgoing negation and non-assertion of Mahayana Buddhist philosophy. Fond as he was of borrowing Buddhist language to preach detachment from this provisional, fleeting world of samsara, Wang Zhe ardently believed in the eternal, universal Real Nature/Radiant Spirit that is the ground and wellspring of consciousness (spirit [shen], Nature [xing]), and vitality (qi, Life [ming]) within all living beings. This to him was not “empty” (lacking inherent existence); it was fully Real (zhen).

 

This thesis (A comparative analysis: Buddhist Madhyamaka and Daoist Chongxuan in the early Tang) might prove useful as well:

 

http://ir.uiowa.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=4731&context=etd

[sillybearhappyhoneyeater]

Emptiness is the true centre, so no matter whether it is Buddhism or Daoism, or even Confucianism, emptiness is, as Zhang Sanfeng says "the opening in the opening of the centre."

 

Daoism says "the mystery of mysteries,"

Buddhism says "the empty centre"

Confucianism says "the utmost centre,"

all the same meaning.

 

this is worth researching deeply.