Desmonddf Posted May 22, 2016 Greetings. I would like to start an exchange of knowledge with the colleagues from this forum. As an acupunturist i'm familiar with the concept of the Sanjiao - the triple burner- a meridian and organ (Fu) of the TCM system of organs (ZangFu). This Fu would be a "virtual" Fu, which has a myriad of functions or not many at all, depending on how one interpret literature. As it also happens with most TCM ancient texts, those are no rare paradoxal and contraditory. So, some say the SanJiao's primary function is to circulate the liquids in the body (the JinYe), whilst others say it also has a number of other much important functions. Anyhow. This structure is traditionaly divided in Upper Burner, Middle Burner and Lower Burner, just like the dantian. The difference is, the SanJiao doesn't have a center. While the dantian has focus points on the body, the SanJiao is a all-encompassing structure, like this : So, it differentiates from the Dantian quite a bit. Now, there are structures in TCM which are very similar to the idea of the dantian, with two of them sharing even the same rough locations. Those are the seas of qi - points in the body where qi accumulates in great amounts and which can be used to greatly affect the flow of the body's qi as a whole. Such structures would be located at the acupoints RenMai 6 (Qi Hai - Sea of Qi), RenMai 17 (Dan Zhong - Chest Center), Stomach 9 (Renying - Man's Prognosis), Du Mai 14 (Da Zhui - Great Hammer) and Du Mai 15 (Ya Men - Mute's Gate). I will post images showing the location of those points bellow: RM6 - Qi Sea RM17: ST9 : DM14: DM15: Now, as we can see, at least two of the Qi Sea points are located in the same place as two of the dantian - the lower tian and the middle tian. But three of them doesn't seem to have any relation. Plus, we don't have a point which would correlate to the upper tian. The closest thing from that would be the upper part of the inner route of the hearth meridian, which brings qi to the brain, or maybe the extra point yintang (emotion's palace), which is located right in the middle of the forehead. That, or we could strech on the theory of the brain being called by TCM the "Sea of Marrow" and try to relate it to the sea of marrow points, which are DM16 and DM20. My question is : Do anyone know if there's any direct relation between the SanJiao, Seas of Qi, Heart Meridian, Yintang point and Seas of Marrow with the dantian? Is it a concept derivated from any form of knowledge from TCM's physiology ? I have tried to make experiments myself on this, but even if the relation between the lower tian and RM6 seems very promissing, it can be just a superposition of structures, or maybe one is deeper in the body than the other. Specially when people say things like you may "harden" your dantian or "rip" it if you do certain techniques the wrong way. "Ripping" one's RM6 in a way it can't recover naturaly (as it does normaly) would pretty much spell death. Hardening it would give birth to abdominal masses, including cancer. Those kind of things seem too serious for the only consequence of "crippling" one's dantian to be becoming unable to practice qigong. But, if these concepts aren't related, then, what is the origin of the knowledge on dantian? Where does it comes from? Is there any more knowledge about it? For instance, about related structures which may lay dormant in the body and how they interact with the other energetic structures we have ? Thank you all for your attention. Please enlighten me. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Taoist Texts Posted May 22, 2016 My question is : Do anyone know if there's any direct relation between the SanJiao, Seas of Qi, Heart Meridian, Yintang point and Seas of Marrow with the dantian? Direct - no. Is it a concept derivated from any form of knowledge from TCM's physiology ? The concept of DT - yes. But, if these concepts aren't related, then, what is the origin of the knowledge on dantian? Where does it comes from? It is first mentioned in a confucian text 《蔡中郎集 - Cai Zhong Lang Ji》 [Eastern Han] 152-192 and in 2 foundational medical texts - one occurence in each) 《黄帝内经 - Huangdi Neijing》 [Warring States - Western Han (475 BC - 9)] 《伤寒论 - Shang Han Lun》 [Eastern Han (25 - 220)] Is there any more knowledge about it? For instance, about related structures which may lay dormant in the body and how they interact with the other energetic structures we have ? Sure lots and lots of it. E g. like on this pic Thank you all for your attention. Please enlighten me. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Desmonddf Posted May 22, 2016 (edited) Thank you very much. I cannot read chinese yet. I have just started my classes. Is there any translated version of this picture ? About the citation in the HuangDi Neijing - i do have a translated version here with me. Do you know the page or at least the chapter it is mentioned on ? Edited May 22, 2016 by Desmonddf 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gerard Posted May 23, 2016 (edited) It is all open to knowledge and experimentation, don't Western Physicists have trouble understanding the reality of the Universe, imagine then how complex may be the human microscosm. I read in a Taoist work that the Lung is the chief of the Three Burners (Sanjiao). A very underrated and often overlooked organ when it comes to healing and treatment, also according to Maciocia it is possibly the very first cause of stagnation (infant separation from mother's womb and after lactating from mother's breasts): On stagnation of Lung and Heart Qi Then we have karmic issues, completely dismissed from TCM and orthodox Taoism but no so much in Buddhist and Hindu practice. Again there will be very Traditional Chinese doctors that have karma in mind when dealing with their patients and as a result will provide them with additional healing and Qigong practice methods (I believe). Edited May 23, 2016 by Gerard Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Taoist Texts Posted May 23, 2016 (edited) Thank you very much. no sweat I cannot read chinese yet. I have just started my classes. Is there any translated version of this picture ? I think so http://www.goldenelixir.com/jindan/neijing_tu.html http://www.ucl.ac.uk/histmed/downloads/ma_teaching/lo/c123_6.pdf http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/8944-taoist-classics-free-download/page-4 http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/2563-nei-jing-tu/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neijing_Tu About the citation in the HuangDi Neijing - i do have a translated version here with me. Do you know the page or at least the chapter it is mentioned on ? Interestingly, it is the chapter 73 in Suwen which is missing from Unshuld as you can see here https://muse.jhu.edu/book/26200 he skips 72 and 73 the sentence is ...神失守位，即神游上丹田，... ...the spirit loses its place, and travels to the upper dantian.. 《本病論》 however these 2 chapters are considered apocryphal as discussed here http://ctext.org/discuss.pl?if=en&thread=2342826&remap=gb Edited May 23, 2016 by Taoist Texts 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Desmonddf Posted May 23, 2016 It is all open to knowledge and experimentation, don't Western Physicists have trouble understanding the reality of the Universe, imagine then how complex may be the human microscosm. I read in a Taoist work that the Lung is the chief of the Three Burners (Sanjiao). A very underrated and often overlooked organ when it comes to healing and treatment, also according to Maciocia it is possibly the very first cause of stagnation (infant separation from mother's womb and after lactating from mother's breasts): On stagnation of Lung and Heart Qi Then we have karmic issues, completely dismissed from TCM and orthodox Taoism but no so much in Buddhist and Hindu practice. Again there will be very Traditional Chinese doctors that have karma in mind when dealing with their patients and as a result will provide them with additional healing and Qigong practice methods (I believe). The lung have some influence on the Sanjiao because it's related to the JinYe. There's a discussion about how much the lung influences the Sanjiao, but indeed there's this interpretation. About karmic issues, my knowledge in the subject is limited. However, i have read somewhere that when a situation is karmic the MingMen (DM4) becomes active, creating a small energetic vortex in the person and can be felt with an energetic scanning of the back. I have also experienced the feeling of having to change my hip position in order to compress my DM4 on a reflex act to avoid energy loss. This happens a lot when i deal with healing (any kind of healing - acupuncture, bioenergy, reiki) on people who are closely related to me, like family and close friends, so i'm prone to believe there's some degree of truth to this theory. no sweat I think so http://www.goldenelixir.com/jindan/neijing_tu.html http://www.ucl.ac.uk/histmed/downloads/ma_teaching/lo/c123_6.pdf http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/8944-taoist-classics-free-download/page-4 http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/2563-nei-jing-tu/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neijing_Tu Interestingly, it is the chapter 73 in Suwen which is missing from Unshuld as you can see here https://muse.jhu.edu/book/26200 he skips 72 and 73 the sentence is ...神失守位，即神游上丹田，... ...the spirit loses its place, and travels to the upper dantian.. 《本病論》 however these 2 chapters are considered apocryphal as discussed here http://ctext.org/discuss.pl?if=en&thread=2342826&remap=gb I see. Thank you again. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
