You are Gods

[Jonesboy]

John 10:23–38

 

23 Jesus was walking in the temple, hin the colonnade of Solomon. 24 So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are ithe Christ, jtell us plainly.”

 

25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. kThe works that I do lin my Father’s name bear witness about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. 27 nMy sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will [pluck] them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me,1 is greater than all, and no one is able to [pluck] them out of tthe Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

 

31 vThe Jews picked up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me?”

 

33 The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.”

 

34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I said, you are gods’? 35 If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be abroken— 36 do you say of him whom bthe Father consecrated and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? 37 eIf I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me; 38 but if I do them, feven though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that gthe Father is in me and I am in the Father.

 

http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Jn%2010.23-38

 

I also like how Saint Symeon talks about being a God.

 

Let no one deceive you! God is light (11) and to those who have entered into union with Him He imparts of His own brightness to the extent that they have been purified. When the lamp of the soul, that is the mind, has been kindled, then it knows that a divine fire has taken hold of it and inflamed it. How great a marvel! Man is united to God spiritually and physically, since the soul is not separated from the mind, neither the body from the soul… It is evident that just as the Father abides in His own Son (12) and the Son in His Father’s bosom (13) by nature, so those who have been born anew through the divine Spirit (14) and by His gift have become the brothers of Christ our God and sons of God and gods by adoption, by grace abide in God and God in them (15).”

 

St Symeon The New Theologian And Messalianism

 

Any thoughts?

 

 

.

Edited May 22, 2016 by Jonesboy

[WisteriaWinds]

Jesus was quoting psalm 82 in which the priests were being chastened for having a religious attitude with the people rather than a spiritual orientation to God. They were leading astray a people who saw them as the embodiment of God's divinity the way children view their parents and so were mimicking their mere religiosity. The priests Jesus was speaking to were being accused of the same thing their Levite ancestors had done. It's an expression, not really a statement that they are actually gods.

[Jonesboy]

I agree that he is admonishing the priests. He did that a lot.

 

He is also to me saying we can all be Gods/Buddhas.

 

Just something to think about.

 

If this was a Buddhist master saying look at the miracles done through me by the light. By the surrender to the guru. I am just showing you what is possible for everyone when they have realized the Dao.

Edited May 22, 2016 by Jonesboy

[thelerner]

Here's a story I heard. sorry if it strays too far from the OP.

 

In the West if you say you are god, you're locked up for being crazy.  In the East, like India, you say you are god, and they'll say congratulations you've found  a great truth.  There was an Indian man who had heard that all his life, but it wasn't til he was an adult that the fact of it really struck him.

 

He announced to his family, I am god.  They nodded approvingly.  He stepped out into in the streets, smiled at the sky, and noticed a work elephant coming towards him.  He waved it away, thinking 'I am god, an elephant cannot hurt me' but it kept going and trampled him.  In the hospital he called for a holy man, and asked him 'If I am god why did the elephant run over me?' And was answered, the elephant is a very big god, best to keep out of there path.

Edited May 22, 2016 by thelerner

[Miffymog]

He announced to his family, I am god.  They nodded approvingly.  He stepped out into in the streets, smiled at the sky, and noticed a work elephant coming towards him.  He waved it away, thinking 'I am god, an elephant cannot hurt me' but it kept going and trampled him.  In the hospital he called for a holy man, and asked him 'If I am god why did the elephant run over me?' And was answered, the elephant is a very big god, best to keep out of there path.

 

 

Shame he wan't this guy

 

 

 

how do you get that level of confidence?

Edited May 22, 2016 by Miffymog

[Junko]

You can find out about gods by mythology too.

[C T]

It has been mentioned that when confronted with imminent death the mind intuitively shifts to another state altogether. The habits that are plugged by fear die first - they all vanish instantaneously, like a candle flame suddenly blown out. Then follows some sort of wonderment that words cannot describe. We can only make tentative guesses as to what this transcended state entails, although some here might have tasted it at one point or another. 

 

Look at the way he laughed. It didn't seem to fit the situation imo. 

 

I know that it can be cultivated though. 

[roger]

 

34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I said, you are gods’?

 

 

 

I guess the question is, "What did Jesus believe"?

 

Most spiritual or religious people tend to think Jesus believed what THEY believe.

 

Evangelical Christians obviously think they know what Jesus believed. Most Hindus assert Jesus was a God-realized yogi. Buddhists tend to see Jesus as a Buddha. New Agers see him as the personification of the Christ-consciousness.

 

Even many Muslims see themselves as Jesus's true followers. I knew a Muslim who told me that when Jesus said, "I will send you another," he was talking about Mohammed.

 

But do we really and truly know what Jesus believed?

 

I myself don't claim to.

Edited May 22, 2016 by roger

[Jonesboy]

Hi Roger,

 

I agree with what you are saying. Everyone believes in what makes since to them so how can anyone know?

 

That is why I added the post by Saint Symeon. Eventually one gets to a depth where it isn't about philosophy but about being, becoming one with. I believe Saint Symeon knew. I believe Neem Karoli Baba knew as well when he said to meditate like Jesus.

 

It is about being one with the father that is within and without. Not thinking and finding the truth in thoughts.

 

Just my take.

Edited May 22, 2016 by Jonesboy

[Jonesboy]

What is the definition of "god"?

 

What is the definition of "buddha"?

 

And, can we all agree on the same definition?

I think it depends. In Buddhism there are Gods, Bodhisattvas,, Buddhas and a whole host of beings.

 

I found this interesting

 

Then Mahamati said: If the Tathágatas are un-born, there does not seem to be anything to take hold of – no entity – or is there something that bears another name than entity? And what can that "something" be?

 

The Blessed One replied: Objects are frequently known by different names according to different aspects that they present, the god Indra is sometimes known as Shakra, and sometimes as Purandara. These different names are sometimes used interchangeably and sometimes they are discriminated, but different objects are not to be imagined because of the different names, nor are they without individuation. The same can be said of myself as I appear in this world of patience before ignorant people and where I am known by uncounted trillions of names. They address me by different names not realizing that they are all names of the one Tathágata. Some recognize me as Tathágata, some as the self-existent one, some as Gautama the Ascetic, some as Buddha. Then there are others who recognize me as Brahma, as Vishnu, as Ishvara; some see me as Sun, as Moon; some as a reincarnation of the ancient sages; some as one of "ten powers"; some as Rama, some as Indra, and some as Varuna. Still there are others who speak of me as The Un-born, as Emptiness, as "Suchness," as Truth, as Reality, as Ultimate Principle; still there are others who see me as Dharmakaya, as Nirvana, as the Eternal; some speak of me as sameness, as non-duality, as un-dying, as formless; some think of me as the doctrine of Buddha-causation, or of Emancipation, or of the Noble Path; and some think of me as Divine Mind and Noble Wisdom. Thus in this world and in other worlds am I known by these uncounted names, but they all see me as the moon is seen in the water. Though they all honor, praise and esteem me, they do not fully understand the meaning and significance of the words they use; not having their own self-realization of Truth they cling to the words of their canonical books, or to what has been told to them, or to what they have imagined, and fail to see that the name they are using is only one of the many names of the Tathágata. In their studies they follow the mere words of the text vainly trying to gain the true meaning, instead of having confidence in the one "text" where self-confirming Truth is revealed, that is, having confidence in the self-realization of noble Wisdom.

 

Chapter XII http://buddhasutra.com/files/lankavatara_sutra.htm

.

Edited May 22, 2016 by Jonesboy

[C T]

dont know about you, but i'd rather see myself as a 'work in progress' rather than a god. 

[thelerner]

only in my mothers eyes. 

and not always then.

[Aetherous]

What is the definition of "god"?

 

Perhaps omniscient (all knowing), omnipotent (capable of anything), omnipresent or at least capable of translocation (being wherever you decide to go, or being everywhere at once)...while still being an individual being. In terms of the Christian God, they say omnibenevolent (good and merciful toward all).

[Spotless]

John 10:23–38

 

23 Jesus was walking in the temple, hin the colonnade of Solomon. 24 So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are ithe Christ, jtell us plainly.”

 

25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. kThe works that I do lin my Father’s name bear witness about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. 27 nMy sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will [pluck] them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me,1 is greater than all, and no one is able to [pluck] them out of tthe Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

 

31 vThe Jews picked up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me?”

 

33 The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.”

 

34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I said, you are gods’? 35 If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be abroken— 36 do you say of him whom bthe Father consecrated and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? 37 eIf I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me; 38 but if I do them, feven though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that gthe Father is in me and I am in the Father.

 

http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Jn%2010.23-38

 

I also like how Saint Symeon talks about being a God.

 

Let no one deceive you! God is light (11) and to those who have entered into union with Him He imparts of His own brightness to the extent that they have been purified. When the lamp of the soul, that is the mind, has been kindled, then it knows that a divine fire has taken hold of it and inflamed it. How great a marvel! Man is united to God spiritually and physically, since the soul is not separated from the mind, neither the body from the soul… It is evident that just as the Father abides in His own Son (12) and the Son in His Father’s bosom (13) by nature, so those who have been born anew through the divine Spirit (14) and by His gift have become the brothers of Christ our God and sons of God and gods by adoption, by grace abide in God and God in them (15).”

 

St Symeon The New Theologian And Messalianism

 

Any thoughts?

 

 

.

This is a newer edition of the many bibles - in an older greek edition Jesus is said to have said:

"I am a son of god" and not "I am the son of god" 

[Bindi]

John 10:23–38

 

23 Jesus was walking in the temple, hin the colonnade of Solomon. 24 So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are ithe Christ, jtell us plainly.”

 

25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. kThe works that I do lin my Father’s name bear witness about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. 27 nMy sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will [pluck] them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me,1 is greater than all, and no one is able to [pluck] them out of tthe Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

 

31 vThe Jews picked up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me?”

 

33 The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.”

 

34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I said, you are gods’? 35 If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be abroken— 36 do you say of him whom bthe Father consecrated and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? 37 eIf I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me; 38 but if I do them, feven though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that gthe Father is in me and I am in the Father.

 

http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Jn%2010.23-38

 

I also like how Saint Symeon talks about being a God.

 

Let no one deceive you! God is light (11) and to those who have entered into union with Him He imparts of His own brightness to the extent that they have been purified. When the lamp of the soul, that is the mind, has been kindled, then it knows that a divine fire has taken hold of it and inflamed it. How great a marvel! Man is united to God spiritually and physically, since the soul is not separated from the mind, neither the body from the soul… It is evident that just as the Father abides in His own Son (12) and the Son in His Father’s bosom (13) by nature, so those who have been born anew through the divine Spirit (14) and by His gift have become the brothers of Christ our God and sons of God and gods by adoption, by grace abide in God and God in them (15).”

 

St Symeon The New Theologian And Messalianism

 

Any thoughts?

 

 

.

 

Was St Symeon talking about being a God? It seems a remarkably unchristian position to take. As seen in the John quote, claiming to be God would be considered blasphemy as much in St Symeon's era as in Jesus'. He talks about being "united to God spiritually and physically", about being "sons of God" and "gods by adoption", abiding "in God" and "God in them". Claiming that he or anyone else in his day was a God would have gotten him excommunicated from the church on the spot, and nowadays would earn him a label as suffering from grandiose delusions: 

 

 

Symptoms

 

According to the DSM-IV-TR diagnostic criteria for delusional disorders, grandiose-type symptoms include grossly exaggerated beliefs of:

• self-worth
• power
• knowledge
• identity
• exceptional relationship to a divinity or famous person.

For example, a patient who has fictitious beliefs about his or her power or authority may believe himself or herself to be a ruling monarch who deserves to be treated like royalty. There are substantial differences in the degree of grandiosity linked with grandiose delusions in different patients. Some patients believe they are God, the Queen of England, a president's son, a famous rock star, and so on. Others are not as expansive and think they are skilled sports-persons or great inventors.

 

In researching over 1000 individuals of vast range of backgrounds, Stompe and colleagues (2006) found that grandiosity remains as the second most common delusion after persecutory delusions.

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandiose_delusions)

Edited May 23, 2016 by Bindi

[Jonesboy]

Maybe

 

Here is some more:

 

“We become members of Christ - and Christ becomes our members,

Christ becomes my hand, Christ my miserable foot;

And I, unhappy one, am Christ’s hand, Christ’s foot!

…Living with God at the same time, we shall become gods,

…Made completely like Christ in our whole body”

 

St. Symeon.

 

Symeon The New Theologian

 

 

 

“By what boundless mercy, my Savior, have you allowed me to become a member of

 

your body? Me, the unclean, the defiled, the prodigal. How is it that you have clothed

 

me in the brilliant garment, radiant with the splendor of immortality, that turns all my

 

members into light? Your body, immaculate and divine, is all radiant with the fire of your

 

divinity, with which it is ineffably joined and combined. This is the gift you have given

 

me, my God: that this mortal and shabby frame has become one with your immaculate

 

body and that my blood has mingled with your blood.” (8)

 

 

 

“I thank you that you have become one spirit with me, without confusion, without

 

mutation, without transformation, you the God of all; and that you have become

 

everything for me, inexpressible and perfectly gratuitous nourishment, which ever flows

 

to the lips of my soul and gushes out into the fountain of my heart, dazzling garment

 

which burns the demons, purification which bathes me with these imperishable and holy

 

tears, that your presence brings to those whom you visit. I give you thanks that for me

 

you have become unsetting light and non-declining sun…” (9)

 

 

 

8. Johannes Koder: Hymnes; Vol 156 (1-15), 1969; Vol 174 (16-40), 1971; Vol 196

 

(41-58), 1973

 

9. Saint Symeon the New Theologian And Orthodox Tradition, by Bishop Hilarion

 

Alfeyev, Oxford University Press 2000

 

As we ascend to that which is more perfect, He who is without form or shape comes no longer without form or without shape. Nor does He cause His light to come to us and be present with us in silence. But how? He comes in a definite form indeed, though it is a divine one. Yet God does not show Himself in a particular pattern or likeness, but in simplicity, and takes the form of an incomprehensible, inaccessible, and formless light. We cannot possibly say or express more than this; still He appears clearly and is consciously known and clearly seen, though He is invisible. He sees and hears invisibly and, just as friend speaks to friend face to face (cf. Ex. 33:11), so He who by nature is God speaks to those whom by grace He has begotten as gods. He loves like a father, and in turn He is fervently loved by His sons.

 

Quote n° 3433 : Saint Symeon the New Theologian , (949 - 1022), Christianity, Orthodoxy

Source : The Discourses, p. 365, Trans. C.J. de Catanzaro. Ramsey, N.J.: Paulist Press, 1980.

Edited May 23, 2016 by Jonesboy

[Bindi]

It seems you have combed the collected works of St Symeon to find all his references to becoming a god. Is this a particular interest of yours? Would you be so keen on balancing the idea of being a god with the repentance that he deemed necessary to attain this state?
 
“Through repentance the filth of our foul actions is washed away. After this, we participate in the Holy Spirit, not automatically, but according to the faith, humility and inner disposition of the repentance in which our soul is engaged. For this reason it is good to repent each day as the act of repentance is unending.”
 
— St. Symeon the New Theologian, Philiokalia Volume 2 
 

Unfortunately, the spiritual emphasis of [st Symeon] is often misused in our own day to defend a false "mysticism" and false "gifts of the Holy Spirit" which are emotional (at best) rather than spiritual and would only have evoked his righteous wrath. The more ecstat­ically "mystical" of St. Symeon's writings (his "Hymns"), as recent Fathers have warned us, are better left untouched by us...

http://www.eparhija-dalmatinska.hr/22E.htm

[Junko]

More like to feel the vibration that there are gods.

[rex]

Maybe

 

Here is some more:

 

“We become members of Christ - and Christ becomes our members,

Christ becomes my hand, Christ my miserable foot;

And I, unhappy one, am Christ’s hand, Christ’s foot!

…Living with God at the same time, we shall become gods,

…Made completely like Christ in our whole body”

 

St. Symeon.

 

Symeon The New Theologian

 

Like the St. Symeon quotes!  Elements of them - the union of the divine with the profane - are echoed in Thunder, Perfect Mind.

 

Humility and all the other virtues, like plain old common sense, should guard against spiritual inflation and all its monstrous works, as Christ said, "And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’

[Matthew 25:40, English Standard Version]

[Jonesboy]

It seems you have combed the collected works of St Symeon to find all his references to becoming a god. Is this a particular interest of yours? Would you be so keen on balancing the idea of being a god with the repentance that he deemed necessary to attain this state?

 

“Through repentance the filth of our foul actions is washed away. After this, we participate in the Holy Spirit, not automatically, but according to the faith, humility and inner disposition of the repentance in which our soul is engaged. For this reason it is good to repent each day as the act of repentance is unending.”

 

— St. Symeon the New Theologian, Philiokalia Volume 2 

 

Hi Bindi,

 

By Jesus and Symeon saying you are a God they are discrediting the belief that Jesus was the only Son of God and that there is only One God.

 

It is just like saying we all have the potential to be Buddha's or that we are already in the truest sense.

 

In Truth Symeon is talking about what I have called Merging with Divine Beings. . Here is an excellent description of talking about merging up to ones depth or "to the extent that they have been purified."

Let no one deceive you! God is light (11) and to those who have entered into union with Him He imparts of His own brightness to the extent that they have been purified.

.

Unfortunately, the spiritual emphasis of [st Symeon] is often misused in our own day to defend a false "mysticism" and false "gifts of the Holy Spirit" which are emotional (at best) rather than spiritual and would only have evoked his righteous wrath. The more ecstat­ically "mystical" of St. Symeon's writings (his "Hymns"), as recent Fathers have warned us, are better left untouched by us...

 

 

http://www.eparhija-...nska.hr/22E.htm

I would think that on a site where people experience amazing things on a daily basis.. it would be far from discredited as false mysticism. Instead it is an example of the truth and what is possible if one looks within.

 

dawei is talking about his experience with Gaia here. http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/41078-the-goddessmother-earthgaia/

 

“He who said, ‘Let there be light’ and immediately there was

What then do you think, if He shines spiritually in a heart

Or in a mind as a bright flash of light or as a great sun

What is He not able to accomplish in a soul, completely

Immersed in the light?

Will He not illumine this soul

And make it experience Himself in an accurate knowledge

Of Who He really is?

Yes, this is really what so happens.”

 

St Symeon The New Theologian And Messalianism

http://www.orthodoxnet.com/orthodoxy/papers/Kotsonis_Saint_Symeon_Messalianism_2.doc

 

All the best.

 

.

Edited May 23, 2016 by Jonesboy

[Jetsun]

In Truth Symeon is talking about what I have called Merging with Divine Beings. . Here is an excellent description of talking about merging up to ones depth or "to the extent that they have been purified.".I would think that on a site where people experience amazing things on a daily basis.. it would be far from discredited as false mysticism. Instead it is an example of the truth and what is possible if one looks within..

 

I see no evidence he did similar practises to you of "merging with divine beings", that looks like conformational bias to me. He talks about his own body being Christ's body yes, but that statement is synonymous of him losing an individual separate identity with his body,  not through actively merging with an individuated being named Christ but when his own sense of individuality is renounced then whose body is it? except one part united with the whole in union with Christ, in union with God. So it is an embodied understanding of Christ's words at the last supper when he said that the bread was his body. 

[Jonesboy]

I see no evidence he did similar practises to you of "merging with divine beings", that looks like conformational bias to me. He talks about his own body being Christ's body yes, but that statement is synonymous of him losing an individual separate identity with his body,  not through actively merging with an individuated being named Christ but when his own sense of individuality is renounced then whose body is it? except one part united with the whole in union with Christ, in union with God. So it is an embodied understanding of Christ's words at the last supper when he said that the bread was his body. 

All I can say is that is what it feels like. He does an excellent job of describing it to be honest. Now everyone's experience is a little different some experience other aspects not described by Symeon.

 

Just one of those things that has to be experienced and once experienced there is now doubt. I respect your views on the issue.

 

All the best,

 

Tom

[vonkrankenhaus]

You are.

 

You are a condensation of Infinity.

 

Plasma and pre-atomic matter.

 

Atomic elements.

 

Chemical compounds.

 

When Earth atmosphere was so hazy that only the Sun was visible, we were single cell microbes.

 

As atmosphere cleared, more stars visible - more complex arrangements.

 

These became plants, the vegetal.

 

Then animal.

 

Then human form of animal.

 

Human is the first animal able to assume some control of its own evolution.

 

Process of our appearance is one of contraction.

 

Then, we are expanding back, covering all of creation.

 

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[gendao]

Any thoughts?

Generally speaking, Jesus was a classic revisionist for his Dad's codes of conduct.  Ergo the New (Son's) vs the Old (Dad's) Testaments - and contentious generation gap between the 2.  His story is perhaps the most pop culture example of Campbell's Seeking Atonement with the Father phase (for himself and all of "Daddy's chillun")...

[allinone]

part of the quote from OP..

 

Let no one deceive you! God is light (11) and to those who have entered into union with Him He imparts of His own brightness to the extent that they have been purified. When the lamp of the soul, that is the mind, has been kindled, then it knows that a divine fire has taken hold of it and inflamed it. How great a marvel! Man is united to God spiritually and physically, since the soul is not separated from the mind, neither the body from the soul… It is evident that just as the Father abides in His own Son (12) and the Son in His Father’s bosom (13) by nature, so those who have been born anew through the divine Spirit (14) and by His gift have become the brothers of Christ our God and sons of God and gods by adoption, by grace abide in God and God in them (15).”

 

St Symeon The New Theologian And Messalianism

 

Any thoughts?

 

 

 

 

.

probably

instruction of jing to blood.

Edited May 24, 2016 by allinone