Zen - worthless practice due to a dramatic misunderstanding?

[Kubba]

Zen is a rich tradition with rich practitioners replete with realized patriachs, warriors, haiku poets, artisans, ceremonialists, etc.

 

It is doubtful the statement you made depicts the tradition accurately. If anything, they look to primarily shed the self more than attain one.

I just said it due to my experience in european temples.

In general tradition is sureley rich... In coulture where it has developed.

Yet I'd doubt in nowadays effects of this tradition the way it is implemented in Europe and US according to what I saw and comparing to "nontraditional" eastern teachers.

I'd also say that most students of zen where I've been did not understand why and what they were studying in these temples, centers...

Calcified...

Edited May 30, 2016 by Kubba

[C T]

I just said it due to my experience in european temples.

In general tradition is sureley rich... In coulture where it has developed.

Yet I'd doubt in nowadays effects of this tradition the way it is implemented in Europe and US according to what I saw and comparing to "nontraditional" eastern teachers.

I'd also say that most students of zen where I've been did not understand why and what they were studying in these temples, centers...

Calcified...

Point noted, but in order to know the depth of any practice its best to study the roots and not merely observe the insects that burrow into the bark or the lichens that form on it. 

 

Just because the people you had observed in western Zendos did not live up to your expectations is not exactly is good yardstick to measure the tradition by. 

[Kubba]

Point noted, but in order to know the depth of any practice its best to study the roots and not merely observe the insects that burrow into the bark or the lichens that form on it.

 

Just because the people you had observed in western Zendos did not live up to your expectations is not exactly is good yardstick to measure the tradition by.

I've checked represantive places of both rinzai and soto. I'd say that soto places is more conductive. Tradition studied out of books is kind of dry, many things you won't find in books but these things are essential - transmission for example. I don't know what doo you mean by tradition - the written one or this that is passed through a teacher. Even zen master Huang Po said that studying withouth a transcendental master is a waste of time.

 

I have spent some time in a rinzai temple lead by so called leading teacher of 2 countries and basically I've ben thrown out of there by him cause I had some experiences... that then 2 independant teachers confirmed as valid and essential. That's why I say that this tradition is destroyed and calcified nowadays even if I feel deeply connected to this tradition. Basically these zen enviroment's are comfusing for seekers.

 

I have also seen some criticism abot zen from a teacher named Anadi. That in generral it promotes only one aspect of so called realisation which is void neglecting the rest. "For example they ask people to meditate only with open eyes which reinforces the being part of realisation". What about devotion? What about shakti? In most zen places when you will say kundalini there would be uncomfortable silence in responce or some brainwashing bullshit.

Even famous Adyashanti said somewhere that he missed the heart while practicing zen

Edited May 30, 2016 by Kubba

[C T]

I've checked represantive places of both rinzai and soto. I'd say that soto places is more conductive. Tradition studied out of books is kind of dry, many things you won't find in books but these things are essential - transmission for example. Even zen master Huang Po said that studying withouth a transcendental master is a waste of time.

 

I have spent some time in a rinzai temple lead by so called leading teacher of 2 countries and basically I've ben thrown out of there by him cause I had some experiences... that then 2 independant teachers confirmed as valid and essential. That's why I say that this tradition is destroyed and calcified nowadays even if I feel deeply connected to this tradition. Basically these zen enviroment's are comfusing for seekers.

 

I have also seen some criticism abot zen from a teacher named Anadi. That in generral it promotes only one aspect of so called realisation which is void neglecting the rest. Even famous Adyashanti said somewhere that he missed the heart while practicing zen.

Seekers by virtue of their status will tend to be confused no matter where they seek. In the tradition i follow, people come and go. That is the nature of circling around being lost to understanding some of the basic requirements of attending retreats long or short. 

 

Zen has plenty of heart. There are scores of worthwhile biographies available attesting to this. 

Maybe you will like to study some of them. An example would be 'Pure Heart, Enlightened Mind' by Maura O'Halloran. There are numerous others, and works by the Zen patriachs are replete with inspiring anecdotes, poems, rituals, and the like, that speaks of finding the transcendental and sacred in the mundane. No other Buddhist tradition does a better job at this, imo. 

Edited May 30, 2016 by C T

[Jetsun]

Zen like all traditions goes through periods of stagnation, where very few students are getting anywhere of note and people just repeat teachings mechanically, but then a new master emerges and rejuvinates a lineage by emphasising different aspects of the teaching or doing things in a new ways. That has happened repeatedly through the history of Zen. So in my opinion to find the heart and vital aspect of Zen you need to find a living lineage, one which has a history of realised beings behind it but has been injected with new life force. So whether Zen is alive or not is probably going to vary from lineage to lineage and institution to institution.

[Jeff]

Zen is a rich and beautiful tradition. But as many (like Jetsun above) have stated, it comes down to the teacher and the "realization". The yogacara sutras that Zen is based upon are also truly sublime, full of deep and great wisdom.

 

From the Lankavatara Sutra...

 

The ignorant and simple-minded being fascinated with their self-imaginations and erroneous reasonings, keep on dancing and leap about, but are unable to understand the discourse by words about the truth of self-realisation, much less are they able to understand the Truth itself. Clinging to the external world, they cling to the study of books which are a means only, and do not know properly how to ascertain the truth of self-realisation, which is Truth unspolied by the four propositions. Self-realisation is an exalted state of inner attainment which transcends all dualistic thinking and which is above the mind-system with its logic, reasoning, theorising, and illustrations. The Tathagatas discourse to the ignorant, but sustain Bodhisattvas as they seek self-realisation of Noble Wisdom.

 

Therefore, let every disciple take good heed not to become attached to words as being in perfect conformity with meaning, because Truth is not in the letters. When a man with his finger-tip points to something to somebody, the finger-tip may be mistaken for the thing pointed at; in the like manner the ignorant and simple-minded, like children, are unable even to the day of their death to abandon the idea that the finger-tip of words where there is meaning itself. They cannot realise Ultimate Reality because of their intent clinging to words where intended to be no more than a pointing finger. Words and their discrimination bind one to the dreary round of rebirths into the world of birth-and-death.; meaning stands alone and is a guide to Nirvana. Meaning is attained by much learning, and much learning is attained by becoming conversant with the meaning and not with words; therefore, let seekers for truth reverently apporach those who are wise and avoid the sticklers for particular words.

Edited May 30, 2016 by Jeff

[thelerner]

Rainbow body is enlightenment.

 

 

what?? you don't get enlightened until you die (& sit immobile 10 years in a cave?) and your body goes up a rainbow?

I gotta different definition. 

Welles

What is your definitions of rainbow body and enlightenment? 

How much do you find energetic versus mental enlightenment?

[liminal_luke]

I don´t know about Zen Buddhism as a whole, but the pithy aphorisms of Zen practitioner/master Paul Reps are very much alive to me.

 

Drinking a cup of green tea, I stopped the war.
 

An instant realization sees endless time. Endless time is as one moment. When one comprehends the endless moment He realizes the person who is seeing it.
 

“Seeing the smile in your eyes, I have forgotten that people die”

 

About art.

 

Draw this line, only as you feel it to be the most worthwhile act of your life.

 

Only a single line is needed to discover who is doing what.

 

The line comes before meaning.

Edited May 30, 2016 by liminal_luke

[Wells]

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Edited June 4, 2016 by Wells

[Wells]

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[Wells]

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[MooNiNite]

If you look at Bhodidharma's direct teachings they are simple meditation. Similar to the Golden Flower. I doubt the Zen people have it wrong. 

[Wells]

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Edited June 4, 2016 by Wells

[liminal_luke]

I´m not sure that going to Buddhist centers and looking for people who´ve achieved the Rainbow Body is the best way of evaluating these traditions.  These kind of ultimate markers of enlightened practice can provide inspiration, for sure, and I do believe that it´s a possibility.  But many practitioners with less lofty aspirations are gaining great benefit and feel happy with their spiritual lives.  Perhaps they´ve noticed an increase in compassion, in patience, an improved ability to navigate the stresses of life from a strong calm center.  Maybe they are able to savor small joys with a more refined quality of attention.  Some just want to find a temporary respite from an otherwise frazzled life.

 

Achieving these things is far from the ultimate, but it´s no small beans either.

Edited May 31, 2016 by liminal_luke

[ChiForce]

Quotes?

 

Q: Btw, since when is "the Golden Flower" just "simple meditation"...?

A: Since it is completely misunderstood.

You mean the Golden Flower in the Taoist internal academy??? Simple?  Yeah, sure...just remain in a state of Samadhi for a long time while holding that Pearl light still for months...eventually, the whitish/bluish pearl would turn golden and giving birth to the Golden Flower, the immortal infant/birth... Heheheh.... 

 

Most people couldn't even complete the MCO.  So, there's not even a pearl to begin with...

Edited May 31, 2016 by ChiForce

[Jadespear]

This may help... and is something to think about::::

 

I have no training in any meditation at all.  No one has ever talked to me about it...  except for the recommendation to "be still".

 

One day, after doing a few physical yoga exercises I felt compelled to " move my mind inward.... and go within..."  

 

You know what I saw?  I saw something that may be called a soul... a saw a real and bright ball of light arise... and I felt tremendous power almost engulf me....

 

... you may ask, what does this have to do with zen...   and zen is just a word to describe what I think is meant by stillness...  the quality of it... and what it can lead to...

 

We are light.   There is no need to transform into it... or into a rainbow...  

[Wells]

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Edited June 4, 2016 by Wells

[子泰]

I don't think there is any particular need for discussion on this topic. When systems are compared based on their external form, any methods have already lost their effectiveness. The cultivator themselves is a bigger factor in terms of progressing. After having tried numerous methods, Buddha just sat down under a tree and attained enlightenment. Fuxi himself observed the patterns in nature and wrote the original hexagrams for the I Ching, which later became the basis for Lao Tzu's Tao Te Ching. What does that say about their inspiration?

 

Perhaps after having achieved themselves spiritually and grasped the essence, not the leftovers, can the cultivator then come up with an unbiased conclusion in this matter. But will this even be an issue for them by then? I often have to remind myself to not bullshit myself into thinking that I know what the texts are saying without having any first hand experience, because in the end, I'd only be frustrating myself. 

[C T]

The same applies to the students of western dzogchen centers,

all of them don't achieve rainbow body.

Its unlikely you have made the effort to personally verify this. 

Edited May 31, 2016 by C T

[C T]

Your aggregates are liberated into their quintessences,

thereby the conditioning karma is eliminated.

This process is completed.

thats what it says in Dzogchen literature, and its easy to parrot the words. 

[Cheshire Cat]

There are saints whose bodies become incorruptibles after death.

Philosophy--> God preserves their body from mortal corruption to resurrect them at the end of days.

 

There are saints whose bodies rapidly disappear after death.

Philosophy--> Their Mind has realized enlightenment and it managed to dissolve the aggregates.

 

There are saints whose bodies suddenly release a bunch of shit after death.

Philosophy--> Their Higher Selves is ONE with the universe. No longer in this body.

 

In my opinion, if only you could stand in front of reality without besmirching its purity with your unfounded explanations and philosophies, you'll get a taste of what Zen really is.

Edited May 31, 2016 by Cheshire Cat

[Wells]

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Edited June 4, 2016 by Wells

[C T]

It's obvious that you don't think like a scientist:

Extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence,

the burden of proof is not on my side.

No one needs to proof anything to you. You overrate yourself. 

[Kubba]

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Edited May 31, 2016 by Kubba

[Golden Dragon Shining]

Makes sense to me, the body follows the mind, if consciousness is the foundation of all... that en-lightenment would transform the body, and anything other than that are just realizations. Youthfulness and abilities would be indications of realization, I think people saying to ignore this, that is isn't important... probably have no profound realizations. If I was a teacher I would show genuine students some ability... it would encourage their practice... abilities are of no concern as the expanding awareness required to have them would negate abuse of them. I would not worry about time frame either "9 to 10 years" ha.. in that Taoist yoga book it spoke of 1-2-3? years before one experiences ..something..like inner light I recall... from what it is describing I believe I've experienced it anyway.. really pointless to sit around... making the body pure is most important. People have sat around 20-30 years with the same junk diet and they get nowhere (some after decades of meditation asking, is their happiness? is there bliss?), the body is corrupted and so the mind. Like in Hinduism, eating flesh makes you spiritually blind, it is as simple as that.

Edited May 31, 2016 by Sionnach