Is AYP really that bad?

[dc9]

I recently came across this book by Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche about using the 5 seed syllables as a way to clear our 5 chakras. I took a read through the book, as well as the practices at the end which has pranayama-like exercises with visualization to further clear obstructions to the chakra. 

 

I thought the practice looked like something that could really benefit me, but I am discouraged because it appears to have a steep learning curve. I would have to visualize images and lights in addition to singing the syllables in addition to fixing my attention to a chakra. And that is not counting the pranayama exercises where I have to visualize the 3 main channels as I inhale and exhale air into them! That is the part that kind of scared me off a bit.

 

I thought back about how I used to practice AYP and how it was great because it has such simple methods that build upon each other. But I also got a bit scared off after reading through all the posts on this forum about how awful AYP apparently is. 

 

What I am looking for is just a supplementary chakra practice to supplement my mindfulness and concentration meditation. I am just wondering which techniques you guys would pick or recommend? 

 

I tried qigong too but, again, learning the movements felt too complicated. So for the reason that I place a greater value on a practice that has an easier learning curve in addition to being powerful, I am really leaning towards AYP.

 

I guess I just want to ask, then, is AYP really that bad?

[RiverSnake]

Easiest qigong exercise ever: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gr5MkMLyoeI

 

There are many books on chakras...most of them probably quite horrid. Tibetan Ice gives some interesting insights on chakra work here: http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/30419-spinning-chakras/?p=453711

Edited May 25, 2016 by OldChi

[liminal_luke]

Hi dc9,

 

I´m have that book as well, and took an online workshop about the sound healing practice.  If doing everything seems overwhelming, I´d suggest just focusing on one part at a time.  You could just work for awhile, for instance, with "ah" and let everything else go. No hurry.

Edited May 25, 2016 by liminal_luke

[RigdzinTrinley]

where is steve when you need him?

[liminal_luke]

where is steve when you need him?

 

Yes, I was going to mention Steve -- the local expert on these practices for sure.  If you´re feeling stuck, dc9, Steve´s the guy to ask.

[Michael Sternbach]

Even though it is not based on an Eastern system, for a simple but effective energy practice, I recommend the Golden Dawn's Middle Pillar exercise.

 

 

There are also books and a CD by Israel Regardie available.

[Karl]

I recently came across this book by Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche about using the 5 seed syllables as a way to clear our 5 chakras. I took a read through the book, as well as the practices at the end which has pranayama-like exercises with visualization to further clear obstructions to the chakra. 

 

I thought the practice looked like something that could really benefit me, but I am discouraged because it appears to have a steep learning curve. I would have to visualize images and lights in addition to singing the syllables in addition to fixing my attention to a chakra. And that is not counting the pranayama exercises where I have to visualize the 3 main channels as I inhale and exhale air into them! That is the part that kind of scared me off a bit.

 

I thought back about how I used to practice AYP and how it was great because it has such simple methods that build upon each other. But I also got a bit scared off after reading through all the posts on this forum about how awful AYP apparently is. 

 

What I am looking for is just a supplementary chakra practice to supplement my mindfulness and concentration meditation. I am just wondering which techniques you guys would pick or recommend? 

 

I tried qigong too but, again, learning the movements felt too complicated. So for the reason that I place a greater value on a practice that has an easier learning curve in addition to being powerful, I am really leaning towards AYP.

 

I guess I just want to ask, then, is AYP really that bad?

 

No worse than any other mysticism. The problem is the practitioner and not the practice. A spade is just a tool as is a dental pick. It is the application of the tool by the practitioner, in other words the mindset of the person choosing the practice. Mysticism is mysticism, there isn't a more or less powerful kind, the idea of 'power' resides in the person using it. A spade is no more powerful than a dental pick if your aim is to clean your teeth, but if you are fixing on digging a hole larger than a pin prick then the spade seems better.

 

With any kind of mysticism the true aim lies shrouded (obviously) in mystery. You might choose the heft of a spade, over the the lighter weight of the pick, but that's arbitrary. Someone might tell you the pick is better because it is lighter or has a sharper edge and then you take to that practice.

 

AYP advises that you dig one well and not to dig many. This again is arbitrary advice. AYP is suggesting that the practitioner is on a specific metaphysical quest to find water. One could equally advise that one should not try and clean the teeth with a spade. No mystic has a clue if it's well they are digging, teeth they are cleaning or any other such thing. The entire purpose of mysticism is to remain mysterious, to be a floating abstract unconnected with reality and having meaning only in the mind of the practitioner but without reference except for the outward metaphysical action of practice.

 

From that point, AYP is very much the same as Daoism, only the practices vary.

[dust]

Oh Karl you do like to stir the pot.

 

I can't speak to AYP but Daoism is not -- necessarily -- about being "a floating abstract unconnected with reality and having meaning only in the mind of the practitioner".

 

Unless you have already, and I missed it, I think you should create a topic in which you describe your understanding of Daoism -- specifically 'Dao' because that is the primary designation of the forum -- and so we can all understand where you're coming from in that regard, and so threads like this have less likelihood of pot-stirring..

[Karl]

Oh Karl you do like to stir the pot.

 

I can't speak to AYP but Daoism is not -- necessarily -- about being "a floating abstract unconnected with reality and having meaning only in the mind of the practitioner".

 

Unless you have already, and I missed it, I think you should create a topic in which you describe your understanding of Daoism -- specifically 'Dao' because that is the primary designation of the forum -- and so we can all understand where you're coming from in that regard, and so threads like this have less likelihood of pot-stirring..

The OP specifically asked if AYP was really that bad. I say it isn't any better or worse.

 

It's pointless starting a thread about what I think Daoism is, when the very foundation on which it is based specifically states that it cannot be known. I might as well start a thread on my understanding of a ghost.

Edited May 25, 2016 by Karl

[liminal_luke]

...

Edited May 25, 2016 by liminal_luke

[Karl]

The Tao cannot be known by Karl's rational mind.

 

Or anyone else's rational mind.

[Jonesboy]

AYP has a lot of positives and some negatives.

 

As a place to start to learn the importance of a system and to get some nice knowledge on a lot of issues AYP is great.

 

I think mantra meditation is very good starting off and speeding someone along but over time I do think it is limited.

 

Spinal Breathing Pranayama, I think something is wrong with it. Many people have mentioned how it is not a properly grounded technique. I would agree with them. Others have mentioned how one should not even do pranayama like is taught at AYP unless under supervision.

 

Samyama I think is very good technique for teaching someone how to let go of a thought.

 

With all that being said. I did it for about 1.5 yrs. I had some great results, overloaded a lot and have since moved on.

[doc benway]

I recently came across this book by Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche about using the 5 seed syllables as a way to clear our 5 chakras. I took a read through the book, as well as the practices at the end which has pranayama-like exercises with visualization to further clear obstructions to the chakra. 

 

I thought the practice looked like something that could really benefit me, but I am discouraged because it appears to have a steep learning curve. I would have to visualize images and lights in addition to singing the syllables in addition to fixing my attention to a chakra. And that is not counting the pranayama exercises where I have to visualize the 3 main channels as I inhale and exhale air into them! That is the part that kind of scared me off a bit.

 

I thought back about how I used to practice AYP and how it was great because it has such simple methods that build upon each other. But I also got a bit scared off after reading through all the posts on this forum about how awful AYP apparently is. 

 

What I am looking for is just a supplementary chakra practice to supplement my mindfulness and concentration meditation. I am just wondering which techniques you guys would pick or recommend? 

 

I tried qigong too but, again, learning the movements felt too complicated. So for the reason that I place a greater value on a practice that has an easier learning curve in addition to being powerful, I am really leaning towards AYP.

 

I guess I just want to ask, then, is AYP really that bad?

 

I can't speak to AYP as I know nothing about it. I don't know how the Bön practices compare to AYP.

 

I think the most important thing is to think of what your objectives are and focus on tools that will help you achieve them. Also think about how important this is to you. I'd urge you to not give up on something easily because it seems complicated at first. That is just an indication of unfamiliarity. Don't short change yourself. If the practice looks promising, invest a little time and effort and see what comes of it. It's just like any skill - driving, riding a bicycle, addition... it take a little practice, then it's easy.

 

I'll share that when I first looked at this dream yoga methods I was similarly put off. I read the book but didn't begin the practice right away as it seems terribly complicated. Later, I decided to push myself to try it and am very glad I did. It took a few weeks to get the hang of it but the payoff is a practice that you can make your own and can potentially enhance your life in important ways. 

 

Making changes that enhance our quality of life generally requires quite a bit of persistence and fortitude over time. These very qualities are cultivated by challenging ourselves to take the difficult road instead of the easy road. 

 

A few words about Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoches's practices. They are all traditional Tibetan practices that, for the most part, have been simplified for Western, non-monastic consumption. In general, they are easy to learn and integrate well with one another. The core elements are there so any of his practices can serve as a foundation for major transformation. 

 

The warrior seed syllable practices take a little time to learn but are actually quite simple once you get the hang of it. You simply start with one, get comfortable with the basic sound, posture, and so on. Then you can add complexity like chakra and color and so forth. Same thing with the supportive practices like the 9 breathings of purification and tsa lung exercises. Take it slow and enjoy the process, at the end of the day that's really all that matters. 

 

Good luck with whatever you choose. 

[dust]

It's pointless starting a thread about what I think Daoism is, when the very foundation on which it is based specifically states that it cannot be known. I might as well start a thread on my understanding of a ghost.

 

It is said that 'dao' cannot be known; no such thing is said about practice/religion/philosophy concerning 'dao', is it?

Edited May 25, 2016 by dustybeijing

[dc9]

Thank you for all the responses. 

 

I feel like I have this constant urge to bounce between practices. The grass is always greener syndrome. No doubt this is a symptom that I need to address through meditation and daily conduct.

 

But... when I think about this logically, perhaps these paths are not for me. Perhaps, because of my skeptical mind, the only meditation I can do is breath meditation. The only issue with that is ... well, chakras and lights and gurus and internal channels and shamanistic goddesses sounds so much funner. But due to how I have been raised, my faith is lacking.

 

Steve: I have also taken a skim of Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoches's dream yoga book, if that is the dream yoga book you are referring to. I found the explanation of the relation of dreams to waking life to be quite fascinating, but I did not do the exercises because I decided to do the western approach of lucid dreaming instead. Right now I am just keeping a dream journal and doing reality checks throughout the day, but still no luck with lucid dreaming. I'd love if you could describe how your process with the dream yoga techniques went.

 

The warrior seed syllables are enticing to me, but I am constantly wondering how they really work. I have still felt no concrete evidence that I have chakras, so there is constant doubt about the practice. Obviously this will hinder the practice, and I don't do this intentionally, but in my subconscious there is doubt. I am wondering if you have a more secular explanation for the benefit of this practice that might ease my mind a bit?

[Karl]

It is said that 'dao' cannot be known; no such thing is said about practice/religion/philosophy concerning 'dao', is it?

 

Same with AYP or indeed any religion. That's my point.

[roger]

I recently came across this book by Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche about using the 5 seed syllables as a way to clear our 5 chakras. I took a read through the book, as well as the practices at the end which has pranayama-like exercises with visualization to further clear obstructions to the chakra. 

 

I thought the practice looked like something that could really benefit me, but I am discouraged because it appears to have a steep learning curve. I would have to visualize images and lights in addition to singing the syllables in addition to fixing my attention to a chakra. And that is not counting the pranayama exercises where I have to visualize the 3 main channels as I inhale and exhale air into them! That is the part that kind of scared me off a bit.

 

I thought back about how I used to practice AYP and how it was great because it has such simple methods that build upon each other. But I also got a bit scared off after reading through all the posts on this forum about how awful AYP apparently is. 

 

What I am looking for is just a supplementary chakra practice to supplement my mindfulness and concentration meditation. I am just wondering which techniques you guys would pick or recommend? 

 

I tried qigong too but, again, learning the movements felt too complicated. So for the reason that I place a greater value on a practice that has an easier learning curve in addition to being powerful, I am really leaning towards AYP.

 

I guess I just want to ask, then, is AYP really that bad?

 

It's awesome in my opinion.

 

You probably already know that the technique Yogani gives that he calls "deep meditation" is very similar to TM (Transcendental Meditation).

 

I learned TM 21 years ago, and practiced it regularly for about 2 years. The benefits I experienced were amazing.

 

I EASILY made the following changes about nine months after beginning to practice it: I quit smoking, I quit drinking, I gave up all forms of sexual pleasure (I wouldn't even look at women sexually), I quit THINKING, I became a vegetarian, I stopped pacing (I used to pace around the house because I had so much stress), I stopped cussing, I changed my sleeping habits, I quit drinking caffeine, I gave up my addiction to going out to eat and started eating at home, and I quit listening to the radio except for the classical station.

 

When I stopped doing TM, I went back to my old ways (except for eating meat).

 

So, WHY the hell did I stop practicing TM??

 

I now know the answer, and it's probably the same reason many TM teachers have given up practicing and teaching TM.

 

MY EGO FELT THREATENED BY TM.

 

You see, I was on the verge of transcending ego, and it reacted by having me stop TM.

 

Recently I've been practicing TM again, and with amazing results.

 

I now know not to quit TM when my ego suggests that I do, because that's when I'm on the verge of transcendence.

 

So, DON'T STOP "deep meditation" when your ego wants you to!

 

I feel very confident that "deep meditation," as taught by Yogani, can give you the same benefits as TM.

 

I also recommend that anyone reading this who feels inclined to, to learn and practice "deep meditation," found at aypsite.org.

 

Follow your heart. It might not be right for you.

 

But you can always experiment and see how it works. You could, for example, make a commitment to practice it for three months, and see how it worked for you.

Edited May 25, 2016 by roger

[doc benway]

Steve: I have also taken a skim of Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoches's dream yoga book, if that is the dream yoga book you are referring to. I found the explanation of the relation of dreams to waking life to be quite fascinating, but I did not do the exercises because I decided to do the western approach of lucid dreaming instead. Right now I am just keeping a dream journal and doing reality checks throughout the day, but still no luck with lucid dreaming. I'd love if you could describe how your process with the dream yoga techniques went.

 

Sure - the first important point is that my confidence in TWR and the Bön methods was already very strong before I started the dream yoga practices. I think that, in and of itself, is helpful. That confidence in the teacher and the method really helps drive the practice. It's easy for Tibetan children growing up in a monastery to have very powerful confidence, trust, and devotion in the teacher and the teachings, much more challenging for secular Westerners like me. But that is an important ingredient. I think it both fuels and maintains the degree of patience and persistence required to be successful but also somehow creates a bridge between our regular, waking mind and a deeper level of awareness. It is that deeper place where we begin to bridge the waking and sleeping dreams and also begin to connect with the archetypal figures that are difficult for Westerners to embrace - the deities, protectors, and so forth.

 

It took me many months (nine or so, I think) of practice before having any success in lucid dreaming. I'd had occasional lucid dreams since childhood but I'm referring to those arising since starting the practice. The first major breakthrough occurred while I was attending a retreat (on a different topic). I can't say what exactly did it for me but I think it was a combination of the months of practice and the environment. The environment was very special - there was a very strong vibe of love, respect, and sacredness present for me. It's hard to describe but it was palpable. I think the sleep environment is VERY important as is our frame of mind upon going to sleep. I had three powerful lucid dreams in one night. I won't go into detail but the first seemed to be testing me, the second and third gave me an opportunity to make an important change in my life that I'd been struggling with. 

 

Since then the practice has been less stable than I'd like to admit. There are periods of time when lucidity occurs regularly and other times when it is elusive. My non-lucid dreams are always much more clear and detailed as well as mostly enjoyable and somehow nourishing. There was a time when I would struggle with insomnia and periodic night terrors and nightmares, that is an extreme rarity now. My success with lucidity in dreams seems to be related to a number of variables - my mood, how consistent I'm being with my practices (especially during the day), my state of mind at bedtime, my level of exhaustion, how mindful I'm being throughout the day, my use of mind-altering substances (and by that I mean just about anything, including things like caffeine and alcohol), use of computer, TV, and other distractions. 

 

There is also a fine line between taking the practices too seriously or too lightly. Too much seriousness, too much focus on the goal, too much concern with whether or not I'll be lucid is bad for the process. Rinpoche says this is one of the biggest hurdles for many Westerners to overcome because we're so goal driven. On the other hand, treating the process or the dreams themselves with disrespect or in a careless manner is equally problematic. It is good to develop a deep respect for the teachings and for the deeper level of awareness that serves as a bridge between waking and sleeping dreams. Once we do become lucid, what we do with that precious opportunity is also very important (eg  do we squander it on pure entertainment or use it to cultivate skills that will serve our spiritual practice?). In the Tibetan tradition all of this is viewed as very sacred and precious and yet not too serious, meaning there is also a playfulness that is important - much like one feels they suddenly wake up and realize, this is a dream!

 

 

The warrior seed syllables are enticing to me, but I am constantly wondering how they really work. I have still felt no concrete evidence that I have chakras, so there is constant doubt about the practice. Obviously this will hinder the practice, and I don't do this intentionally, but in my subconscious there is doubt. I am wondering if you have a more secular explanation for the benefit of this practice that might ease my mind a bit?

 

You're much like me in that regard. I am a scientist by training and profession and often struggle with many of the concepts that are not easily and objectively observable. For my purposes, there simply are no satisfactory explanations that could pass scientific scrutiny to remove your doubt. At least, I've never heard any and I'm not able to present one. 

 

Certainly I have worked through these questions in my own mind with my own paradigm and can make a few general comments. A thorough discussion would take way too long. Thinking about channels and chakras - we are energetic beings by anyone's definition. We are beings full of motion and activity - from our blood flow, to our neural impulses, to our gut movement, to our muscles, the life and death of our individual cells, their inner activity. Even deeper, all matter is energetic. All of that's easy to understand.

 

Next look at the chakras and what they represent, I'll talk about the Bön perspective (of which I'm NOT an expert, just an interested novice). First I'll say that I do not look at them (or meridians and channels) as discrete, observable physical structures. I look at them more as general trends and pathways that are highly (perhaps infinitely) flexible. There is a chakra at the crown of the head - this is associated with the brain and its activity. This is where we are considered to be closest to connecting with truth. It is related to awareness. No doubt there is energy centered in the head and brain, no doubt this is somehow connected to awareness, consciousness, and so on. That's easy for me to accept. Then there is the throat chakra - it relates to our ability to form speech, not only audible speech but the internal narrator. Then the heart chakra, then the gut, then the sexual organs. Each of these 'centers of energy' correspond to an important physical organ system filled with energetic activity and also each corresponds to a complex of emotional and psychological processes that we relate to these physical systems. These relationships seem to be somewhat archetypal and cross many geographic and cultural boundaries.

 

When we practice, whether it is cleansing channels, guiding energy, clearing chakras, we are using our awareness and our intention to connect with areas that we normally ignore. That is to say we focus on things like emotional and psychological pain or repressed feelings, we focus on dysfunctional patterns of behavior that we generally aren't aware of, that sort of thing. For example, someone asks you a question and you react to them in very predictable ways based on prior experience, rank, station, perceived threat or influence, and all of that. And there are definite connections between certain types of processes and feelings and physical organ systems that are deeply embedded in our minds and in our language (eg  I've got a hard-on for something, my heart is broken, that makes me sick to my stomach,...). So somewhere deep in our mind and language we connect physical and energetic phenomena in ways that have a deep effect on us. So I see these systems of practice as using whatever tools it can to help free us from the ties the bind us - the dysfunctional patterns, the automated responses, the repressed and suppressed psycho-emotional baggage, physical pain which represents psycho-emotional trauma, and on and on... The tools are things like awareness, focus, movement of the body and breath, sound, the very things that connect us to our environment - our awareness and sensory perception.

 

I don't think of a chakra as some magical circle in my body. To me they are complex connections between my psycho-emotional "body" (for lack of a better word), my intellectual framework, my conditioned patterns, my cultural biases, my physical body and so on... This is what we are working on when we practice. We need to make these practices deeply personal for them to really be effective. It is not about believing in magic or in the drawings of an old Chinese or Tibetan for me. It is about actually living and personally experiencing the magic, like seeing a dysfunctional pattern of behavior that's resisted change for decades suddenly loosen and dissolve. 

 

The way I came to trust in the truth behind the practices was through spending time with the practices themselves and learning to let go of the intellect's demand for an explanation. I was lucky enough to have a teacher who explained absolutely nothing. He taught you what to do (Daoist cultivation) and you did it for a few weeks or months, came back, had a little chat, and got more to work on. Little or now theoretical framework or explanation. That was great for me as no theoretical explanation would have satisfied me. What did satisfy me was seeing the changes in my body and mind after a period of practice. The more I did the work, the more benefit I saw. 

 

Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche is similar as a teacher. He is not one to get bogged down in theory. He knows the Western mind well. He knows how unsatisfying most of the Eastern theories and explanations are to our ears (meaning skeptics like you and me). I think he also knows how distracting and counter-productive it can be to simply "believe" in something. If you simply believe, you don't have to do any work, and you also won't see any change. He emphasizes the practice itself and the very tangible effects they have on us. The proof is in the pudding as they say. That is the source of my "faith" - I put that in quotes because to a lot of people it's a dirty word. I use it more in the sense of trust and confidence based on direct experience, even in the absence of any scientific evidence or exploration. You put a certain amount of time into the practices, you see positive results, you dig deeper for longer, you grow even more. If they do not work for you, that is OK too - everyone needs something different at different times in their lives.

 

If the warrior seed syllable practices are calling to you, I would suggest you follow that call. It is little things like that which can literally change our lives. If they are not a good fit, let go and move on. Life's too short to hang on to things that aren't working for us. 

[dc9]

roger: Thank you for sharing your experience. It sounds like TM really connected for you. From my experience with the mantra, I definitely felt some effects. My only skepticism is that I would be feeling an effect from any type of concentration meditation, and there is nothing special about saying a mantra. There are varying opinions on this, and the only way I can really know is to experiment. 

 

And then an issue is there's so many other methods out there, and I only have a limited amount of time so I can't try them all since it takes time to settle into a practice to see if it really works for me or not. I feel very restless, constantly worrying if I have the method that suits me the best. What if I wasted all that time on one method, when I could have been spending time with another method that I would have resonated much more with?

 

I guess that's where faith comes in. At this rate I will be jumping between practices for the rest of my life, never spending enough time to get deep enough. And that's the worst possible outcome, the most illogical thing I could do.. 

 

Thank you for the detailed post, Steve. I see some logic in how you view the chakras. Of course, there is always doubt. Such as, why hasn't there been measurable evidence of the heart, or the stomach, or the sexual organ's roles in our emotions? But maybe there has been. I don't know. It doesn't matter, I don't fully trust scientific studies either after reading so many reports of all the flawed studies out there. Like you said, the experience is what matters. 

 

I like the 5 warrior syllables because honestly they sound kind of fun. I've never done a practice that is based around chanting or humming before. I'm not an articulate person so it's kind of nice to work out my vocal cords. I will take your advice to ease into it and see how it feels after a while. 

[roger]

roger: Thank you for sharing your experience. It sounds like TM really connected for you. From my experience with the mantra, I definitely felt some effects. My only skepticism is that I would be feeling an effect from any type of concentration meditation, and there is nothing special about saying a mantra. There are varying opinions on this, and the only way I can really know is to experiment. 

 

And then an issue is there's so many other methods out there, and I only have a limited amount of time so I can't try them all since it takes time to settle into a practice to see if it really works for me or not. I feel very restless, constantly worrying if I have the method that suits me the best. What if I wasted all that time on one method, when I could have been spending time with another method that I would have resonated much more with?

 

I guess that's where faith comes in. At this rate I will be jumping between practices for the rest of my life, never spending enough time to get deep enough. And that's the worst possible outcome, the most illogical thing I could do.. 

 

dc9,

 

You have a beautiful childlike innocence about you.

 

My third eye opened prematurely when I was four, when my older sister threw a rock at me and hit me in the forehead, and I've been able to easily perceive such things since then.

 

Are you being totally honest with yourself? Don't underestimate ego's capacity to make you believe what it wants you to believe. I'm not at all judging you, just saying what I think is best based on what I see.

 

Here's the solution in my opinion. Just follow your heart. Do what gives you peace and joy. Don't try to "figure it out" intellectually- THAT'S when ego can trick you.

 

Also, doubt can be a good thing, but in many cases it's just a game our egos play as a defense.

 

Just trying to help.

 

Peace.

[RiverSnake]

 

 

My third eye opened prematurely when I was four, when my older sister threw a rock at me and hit me in the forehead, and I've been able to easily perceive such things since then.

Funny, something similar happened to me recently that helped open up capacities. Amazing how growth can come through such crude and abrasive actions. Good fun.

Edited May 26, 2016 by OldChi