Fire versus Water methods - Action over Stillness, West vs. East

[CrunchyChocolate555]

It sucks to say but I have to be brutally honest- every time I made a conceited effort to become the "natural man", my life has always fallen appart horrifically. Likewise, each time I made a conscious effort to become the person I wanted to be, that's the only place I have ever been able to make an "improvement" in the quality of my life, to actually enjoy my life and have some level of success.

 

For instance, I have suffered from bouts of clinical depression for the past near-decade, and have at times tried to understand what the pain and suffering was all about through this "radical acceptance", trying to reach some kind of resolution or transformation through patient acceptance, but not only has it never worked, but that's when I had always been the closest to taking my own life. Without fail, it's always driven me to yet more horrific places, even when I thought there was no going lower, without fail, there was always something worse beneath.

 

The thread is about this, you see, it's said that there are two basic paths to transformation: through water, through acceptance, through non-resistance, and through fire, through action and transformation.

 

There is a much stronger fire current in the West, especially now with quantum mechanics and emerging findings in neuroscience where people are applying the idea that we are able to program our mind to live out almost any experience and likewise effect miraculous healings through the power of belief (also known as placebo). No, we can't be anything and not -everything- is possible, but a whole heck of a lot more is possible than we think it is!

 

I'm being a bit unfair in my judgement of "water" practices, because I know it's a HIGH ART to apply them effectively in today's world, but what I am saying is that when water is missapplied it can be highly destructive, if not leave to a life of misery and mediocrity. Likewise, I definitely think that radical surrender is not something that is good for everyone.

 

Can someone correct me here but- if our brains are products of practice and conditioning and we become experts at non-change, then wouldn't it be very easy to let things simply get out of hand, and let suffering and negativity become our dominant experience in lives, for those who grew up with that as the dominant force in their lives?

 

Think about it; if for instance we have a chronic illness that diminishes the quality of our lives and we had the choice to either accept it (with no change in the condition), or to change our minds and beliefs and get rid of that condition, wouldn't the second option be the most life-affirming one?

 

I think we've been extremely brainwashed in embracing punishment, guilt, shame and unworthiness as an excuse for "paying off karma", or whatever it may be.

 

I know I'm ranting a bit, but thinking back now, as much as I adore Taoism I think it's a very tricky thing for us Westerners.. very tricky indeed.

 

My frustration stems from nearly a decade of intermittent clinical depression, and all the bullshit that goes along with that. I did not mean to offend or diminish the value of ancient traditions, I just wanted to spark a conversation on this topic and see what you guys thought.

 

Last year, I got out of my depression by making radical changes in my beliefs and actions (fire), and after a period of great joy and success, I fell back into the deepest pits of despair by embracing water- what actually happened was by trying to "just be natural" at the height of my success, I let my strongest and most ingrained subconscious tendencies devour me, because that negativity was the most "natural" thing for me... well, I guess you live and you learn. For now, for me anyway, I say screw the natural state- there is no natural man in today's modern world- you will get destroyed. Today, I choose to re-invent myself once again.

 

In a way, I think this is one of the most ignorant posts I have made but I cannot help but feel this way right now. I'm sure I will be more embracing of a balanced perspective in due time, but for now I had to let it out!

 

 

[Silent Answers]

That there must be ups and downs is THE thing to accept.

 

Placing our feet back down on the ground, it then becomes the platform that provides force to take another step. That's progress. Looking ahead instead of down at the drop makes life easier to balance.

 

As for your post, be both fire and water. There's no need to limit yourself to one mode of living. Different situations call for different actions.

[Stosh]

Ignorant? No . Look, if you know what works for you, do it. If finding a sense of wellbeing requires you to , you need to work for it.. You just matched most of the human race. Generally , we need challenges achievements even change. Other folks may need to chill out but ..dont try to apply their medicine to your condition. IMO the big lesson is to find the happy middle by gaining control . Knowing what you do ,on an intuitive level , puts you ahead, not behind.

[CrunchyChocolate555]

I completely disagree with what I wrote. I was just in a frustrated state of material failure at the time. A sense of inner worthlessness and need to become "more".

 

two viewpoints

 

1) Healing occurs through visualizing an intended outcome and applying sustained effort and intention to manifest that inner and outer condition. This implies that you don't like something about the present moment and you would like to change it. Could it then, the heat of fire be produced by the friction of resistance? (Fire)

 

2) Healing occurs through feeling unconditionally. Nonjudgement of any mental or emotional state, producing a state of peaceful acceptance and flow of energy. (Water)

 

The trouble is that in a world where survival is based on performance, the fire method is the quick fix to achieving outer security.

 

For instance, water may not satisfy your ego's craving, but can produce something deeper if you have faith in it.

 

Trouble is, I had lost my faith in it. I just wanted to get rid of the pain and discomfort of being alive, of being a failure in the eyes of conventional social and material success.

Edited May 29, 2016 by CrunchyChocolate555

[CrunchyChocolate555]

This brings me to another interesting topic: if the ancients knew everything there is about the fire methods, why do none of the great religions or mystical traditions advocate it?

 

Surely, if you could become or manifest anything or heal yourself completely of any pain or ailment, there would be mention of it throughout history. Why has this only been a more recent fad? Is it a siddhi which actually hinders spiritual development?

 

What about the shamans? If they could manifest anything wouldn't they be driving Mercedes. Then again, they are smart enough to know that material wealth does not bring one happiness.

 

I realize there were fire traditions in the old sense, but I'm talking about the newer do/be anything fad that started with the law of attraction and is now more legitimately and practically epitomized by books such as "you are the placebo" by dr. Joe Dispenza

Edited May 29, 2016 by CrunchyChocolate555

[Forwards]

I'd say all worthwhile paths contain fire and water. You need the strength and drive to be tempered by the softness and emptiness. If your path lacks power or stillness then I'd say that's where the problems start to come in.

 

And also, healing can just happen. No need to limit it to two methods. When yin and yang are incorporated and in balance then things can, will and do occur that benefit everyone.

[Fate]

Alan Watts spoke on this topic, and I appreciate the comparison he makes.

He was a bit disillusioned as you seem to be when he first traveled to the East and met these Water masters. Where were there siddhis? Why didn't they manifest whatever they wanted etc.?

Its because they've thought it through all the way to the end, whereas Western Fire methods don't take that into account. "You can manifest your own reality!" the underlying assumption here is that is power we even truly want.

 

Hell I'll let the man speak for himself:

 

 

This isn't to say Fire isn't in Eastern or Daoist path. I mean they are called Taoist Hermit Wizards for a reason!

I'm of the personal opinion that these things aren't to be shared publicly, so how would you know? For what purpose would they display them?

But suppose they come across a situation where being able to float down the mountain would enable them to "get where they need to be" in the Wu Wei. Also I don't see any of them ending up in hospital beds clinging to life, so who is to say they don't manifest their own death? That's Laozi's legend, that he realized it was the time to go and went off into the mountains.

[sillybearhappyhoneyeater]

The fire and water dichotomy is silly and you should gradually learn not to think in extremes.

I'm aware that a couple of the used car salesmen of the new age Daoist world have used it to sell their products, but it is just wrong.

The only good path of self cultivation is the centre, one where you learn to strike a balance between effort and rest.

 

If I hit the gym five days a week, but at the weekend I rest for two days in order to reset my body.   Is that a fire method or a water method?

If I sit for two hours every morning and every night, I put my attention on my lower dantian and my mind becomes empty and quiet, but energy moves through all the meridians of my body, is that a water or fire method?

 

People often think in terms of being lazy and then trying to  make up for it by rushing around putting out fires.

That is the worst way to live.

It is much better to look at your situation, make a plan, know how to proceed, and then simply follow the steps to success.

 

I also went through a psychological crisis, and although I know it isn't easy and the entire medical community wants to help you victimize yourself with never ending prescriptions and so on, it is also important to recognize that in your current state, you are not perfect, and you have a lot of work to do to get better.   There is not better time to continue that work than now  :)

 

Also, when people talk about how high pressure the west is, it makes me laugh, since the west is pretty much the least pressure, and least shame based culture on earth.  Anyone who has every lived in Asia will understand that western people are very privileged to be allowed to be as lazy as they are.   :) :)

[Bud Jetsun]

Fate- Thank you for sharing that Alan Watts video. Never heard him speak before, that man has some Wisdom.

 

 

[Walker]

The fire and water dichotomy is silly

Amen. I am all but convinced that this widespread idea is the product of Bruce Frantzis' imagination/marketing, and nothing else. I've never seen or heard even a single mention of fire and water to classify philosophies and techniques in nearly a decade in China.

 

An easy way to see why this dichotomy is false is by looking at the use of"heating" and "cooling" methods in Chinese medicine: one uses "fire" when it is appropriate to use fire, one uses "water" when it is appropriate to use water. One is not better than the other. Daoism is interested in appropriateness.

 

To the OP--if what you have come up with is creating improved mental and physical health for you, then in my experience an old Daoist would be much more likely to say "good for you," than, "hrmmm, doesn't seem watery enough."

 

Then again, if you want to know more about water, there are plenty of lovely books on the topic for sale...

[Orion]

My understanding is that it's about balance. Sometimes fire is called for, sometimes water. If you become too far flung in either direction then it can be a problem. We also have natural tendencies, it's true.

 

But my understanding of depression is that it's neither fire nor water, but stagnation. Water isn't about not changing or laziness, it's about flowing into change through the path of least resistance. Fire is about creating the path, through directed action. Both can be passive or active, depending on what is called for. Both have power.

[Master of no significance]

On 29.5.2016 at 4:53 AM, CrunchyChocolate555 said:

I completely disagree with what I wrote

now that's daoist :-)