what we long for most is what we're avoiding

[roger]

I've realized that what we really desire is our divine nature.

 

The utter irony is that our divine nature is the main thing we're avoiding.

 

It's like we keep it "at bay," we keep it at a safe distance.

 

It's very possible to WANT something and to simultaneously FEAR it. That's how it is with one's divine reality in my opinion.

 

It's the basic object of both our fear and our desire.

[C T]

How do you know that the true nature is divine? Maybe its just the most ordinary thing? 

 

By calling it divine is self-seduction - which might explain why people clamour for that state. 

 

Would the fear and desire cease if the label was changed to 'dry', for example? Or 'pus-like'? 

 

Divinity is an alluring term. So is buddha-nature for that matter, but the approach to this from the pov of Buddhism has never been one which defines that nature as divine. 

[liminal_luke]

I've realized that what we really desire is our divine nature.

 

Would the fear and desire cease if the label was changed to 'dry', for example? Or 'pus-like'? 

 

The thing I want the most, and am also avoiding, is my divine pus-like nature.

[C T]

The thing I want the most, and am also avoiding, is my divine pus-like nature.

....which is dry 

[Karl]

I'm avoiding unpleasantness, it's definitely not what I most want.

[roger]

How do you know that the true nature is divine?

 

It's just what I believe.

 

I base that belief largely on reason.

 

My reasoning consists of analyzing data from personal experience, the experiences of others, intuition, and the teachings of entities I trust, both human and non-physical.

[C T]

It's just what I believe.

 

I base that belief largely on reason.

 

My reasoning consists of analyzing data from personal experience, the experiences of others, intuition, and the teachings of entities I trust, both human and non-physical.

Well thats good reasoning, but it still does not explain why it should be feared unless the core issue is something else other than one's fundamental nature. Analyzing data is good. Personal experience is good. Reflecting on the experiences of others is good. Intuitive insight gained from physical and non-physical teachers is good, which should add up to positive result - so how does the fear part enter into the equation? 

[roger]

Well thats good reasoning, but it still does not explain why it should be feared unless the core issue is something else other than one's fundamental nature. Analyzing data is good. Personal experience is good. Reflecting on the experiences of others is good. Intuitive insight gained from physical and non-physical teachers is good, which should add up to positive result - so how does the fear part enter into the equation? 

 

Ego-identification creates fear of one's divine nature. The acceptance of one's divine nature is the demise of ego.

[liminal_luke]

At the risk of going all rainbows and butterflys, I´ll share this quote from Marianne Williamson...

 

“Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourselves, Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be? You are a child of God. Your playing small does not serve the world. There is nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other people won't feel insecure around you. We are all meant to shine, as children do. We were born to make manifest the glory of God that is within us. It's not just in some of us; it's in everyone. And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others.”

 

.......................................................................................................................................................................................

 

I don´t make any claims to absolute knowledge, but I like the idea of a divine nature that permeates all things.  It´s easy to imagine such a thing standing spellbound on the beach as the sun sinks into the ocean, harder when confronted with the dry pus-filled sores of suffering slum children.  But I don´t think we can pick and choose.  If God is anywhere at all, she´s everywhere.

Edited June 5, 2016 by liminal_luke

[blue eyed snake]

she is indeed everywhere, but why should she be ' divine' in the sense we mostly use the word?

 

The slumchildren are as divine as the sun. My illness should be as ' good' as my lost healthy body

 

She is both in the suffering and in the beauty, one seems to be ' needed' for the other. There seems to be a sort of balance between the two. Sometimes it seems to me that being really aware of the ' divineness' of suffering, of the totality of it all makes one aware of being  one with the rest of it

 

Of not making  a difference between the two, that it's all  'good'  

 

But where i've had glimpses of being at one while i was still healthy, I've now lost it, being dregged down in what I know should not be that relevant.

 

[blue eyed snake]

At the risk of going all rainbows and butterflys, I´ll share this quote from Marianne Williamson...

 

“Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourselves, 

 

and the strange thing is, I do recognize that very much, I've lived in fear of the light within for all my life, and at the moment I was embracing it, my body and mind fell ill beyond measure. I'm not a tenth of the woman i was, totally incapable of anything...so what does that mean?

 

So, at the momentn I became aware that i was ' adequate, all right etc. I ( the body-mind) became inadequate, but the knowledge that that's just the outside, is in me.

[liminal_luke]

 My illness should be as ' good' as my lost healthy body

 

Yes! 

 

I´m reminded of that Rumi poem so many of us know...

 

“Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing 

and rightdoing there is a field.

I'll meet you there.

 

When the soul lies down in that grass

the world is too full to talk about."

 

He might as easily have said "out beyond ideas of sickness and health..."  There are many things we can´t do when we are sick.  Sometimes we can´t get out of bed.  And yet our sicknesses do not diminish our humanity one iota.  Contrary to oppressive cultural prejudices that make us believe we "should" be relentlessly healthy, wellness does not make us good nor sickness bad.

[C T]

Ego-identification creates fear of one's divine nature. The acceptance of one's divine nature is the demise of ego.

Its not that simple i think. 

[roger]

and the strange thing is, I do recognize that very much, I've lived in fear of the light within for all my life, and at the moment I was embracing it, my body and mind fell ill beyond measure. I'm not a tenth of the woman i was, totally incapable of anything...so what does that mean?

 

So, at the momentn I became aware that i was ' adequate, all right etc. I ( the body-mind) became inadequate, but the knowledge that that's just the outside, is in me.

 

It's possible that your negative reaction was ego's defense against the divine truth about you, a way to protect its existence.

 

I attended a retreat many years ago, and had an experience of my divine nature, and when I arrived home after the retreat, I was totally devastated. So much so that two months later I jumped off of a hotel balcony attempting suicide.

 

After my suicide attempt, I slowly became well again; it took about a year.

 

It seems to me that your situation is similar to mine. I've always been consciously aware that I was avoiding the light. I've always recognized that that's what I was doing.

 

It might not be necessary to know exactly WHY you've had such a negative reaction to your spiritual experience, other than the insight that the nature of your problem is fear- fear of your divine reality.

 

ACIM says that all illusions, including sickness, are forms of fear.

 

Probably what it is is that you happen to be very consciously aware of the threat to your ego that your divinity poses, and that makes the fear more extreme.

 

One of the lessons in ACIM is to simply repeat to yourself, "There is nothing to fear." Doing this can heal the fear.

 

Know that there's no REASON to be afraid of your divine nature. You can simply remind yourself of this frequently, and because you ALREADY know it's true in your heart, reminding yourself will likely be very beneficial.

 

Based on your posts, I think you're very spiritual aware, and sometimes unique problems can arise out of extreme awareness, but there's definitely a solution to those problems.

 

It might really help to try what I said about repeating, "There is nothing to fear," and also to simply keep that fact in mind.

 

Another thing is that fear can arise out of guilt and shame (ACIM says, "fear depends upon guilt"). So it could possibly help tremendously to know that you are INNOCENT, meaning NOT GUILTY. Even people who do great wrong are, ultimately, guilty of nothing.

 

And know that God loves you unconditionally and never gets angry, and never punishes anyone for any reason.

 

I hope all this helps.

 

Peace.

[liminal_luke]

 I'm not a tenth of the woman i was, totally incapable of anything...so what does that mean?

 

BES,

 

I can´t of course know what meaning you might find in your illness.  That´s an intensely personal area of inquiry, and only an internet fool --of which there are many -- would dare to speculate.

 

That said, I´d like to share a thought I have about suffering.  We all know about the suffering that is born of bad decisions.  People that smoke are more likely to get lung cancer, that kind of thing.  But there´s another lesser known kind of suffering that befalls us precisely when we are doing everything "right."  

 

Suppose we live in an ultimately benevolent universe designed to grow us up into the kind of enlightened beings capable of blazing love of self and others in the most difficult of circumstances.  We would start out in kindergarten.  Kindergarten is a sheltered place where we are taken care of and joy and acceptance come to us with relative ease.  But at a certain point, say when we finally step out of fear and into our glory, we are ready for graduation.  Some very advanced souls with great potential get kicked ahead a few grades into challenging territory.  They find themselves in a place where love of self and others is very challenging indeed.  A place of grave illness, terrible war, devastating poverty.  And it´s not because they´ve done anything wrong, but precisely because they´ve done everything right.

 

Or maybe not, but that´s how I see it.

 

My best to you,

Liminal

Edited June 5, 2016 by liminal_luke

[roger]

Its not that simple i think. 

 

You're probably right in my opinion.

[sketchbo0k]

I think what the original poster meant is a sub-conscious avoiding. You avoid something consciously because you want to or must avoid. But on a sub-conscious level you avoid what you really want because of something only your sub-conscious knows (e.g, you fear failing while you're on the road of achieving what you want.)

Edited June 6, 2016 by sketchbo0k

[blue eyed snake]

thank you Liminal, you're sensitive

 

Yes! 

 

I´m reminded of that Rumi poem so many of us know...

 

“Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing 
and rightdoing there is a field.
I'll meet you there.

When the soul lies down in that grass
the world is too full to talk about."

 

He might as easily have said "out beyond ideas of sickness and health..."  There are many things we can´t do when we are sick.  Sometimes we can´t get out of bed.  And yet our sicknesses do not diminish our humanity one iota.  Contrary to oppressive cultural prejudices that make us believe we "should" be relentlessly healthy, wellness does not make us good nor sickness bad.

 

yes, that is a very appropiate verse, and the knowledge that i'm allright even while being incapable of doing more that taking care of my body has shifted from an intellectual knowledge to a real knowing. And that includes other people.

 

BES,

 

I can´t of course know what meaning you might find in your illness.  That´s an intensely personal area of inquiry, and only an internet fool --of which there are many -- would dare to speculate.

 

well, I' ve some ideas about it, but in the end the only thing I want is to become healthy again. I'm fed up with it, and after 3 years struggling I seem to be further from health than I was when I started.

Th strange thing is, many people think my tiredness ( I have chronic fatigue syndrome) is psychological, they advised me to go to a psycho-therapist, which I didn't because I know that's not where the problem lies. That's the underlying reason I've lost most of my friends last year

Other people are sure it must be an energetic problem, and urge me to pick up my practice again. but i'm much to tired for that. But I'm sure the problem is not energetic in nature, My teacher even remarked on how quickly I have opened channels and removed blockages. That's very much out of character for him.

 

so the levels ' left'  are the purely physical, and facts are being found at the moment,

 

and the spiritual. There is a lesson to be learned here, probably several lessons

 

That said, I´d like to share a thought I have about suffering.  We all know about the suffering that is born of bad decisions.  People that smoke are more likely to get lung cancer, that kind of thing.  But there´s another lesser known kind of suffering that befalls us precisely when we are doing everything "right."  

 

I get what you mean there, but...eh...you know, when you look at peoples lives and the decisions they made. They may look like ' bad' decisions, but mostly people cannot but do what they do. 

Looking back on my own life, I see ' bad' decisions. There has been a time that I regretted these decisions. But I'v become aware of the fact that I made these with the knowledge and the insight I had at that moment, and probably would have done about the same had i been in that position again. So, happily I've not much regret or guilt left, it's becoming a story with its inevitable turns and plots.

 

Suppose we live in an ultimately benevolent universe designed to grow us up into the kind of enlightened beings capable of blazing love of self and others in the most difficult of circumstances.  We would start out in kindergarten.  Kindergarten is a sheltered place where we are taken care of and joy and acceptance come to us with relative ease.  But at a certain point, say when we finally step out of fear and into our glory, we are ready for graduation.  Some very advanced souls with great potential get kicked ahead a few grades into challenging territory.  They find themselves in a place where love of self and others is very challenging indeed.  A place of grave illness, terrible war, devastating poverty.  And it´s not because they´ve done anything wrong, but precisely because they´ve done everything right.

 

Or maybe not, but that´s how I see it.

 

you're not the first one who mentions that to me, and I do see that i've learned many things over the last years that i would not have learned when i had stayed healthy. But you mentioning this, sort of eh... I do not feel like a very advanced soul...or maybe i do and do not want it. It feels like arrogance to believe that, and also as dangerous business ...sometimes i think the only way to get out of this situation is to jump off that spiritual cliff...or some such.

 

My best to you,

Liminal

 

thank you, your posts having given me things to ponder

[liminal_luke]

Thanks Bes, for sharing your reaction to my posts.  After I wrote the second one, about how sometimes "advanced souls" are the ones who get sick in order to further some cosmic learning process...well, I had second thoughts.  

 

I´m definitely with you about not wanting to identify as an "advanced soul"  -- dangerous territory, for sure.  Lately, I´ve been reading a book called Self-hate and Compassion by Theodore Rubin.  He says that anytime we identify with a distorted image of our self, whether the distortion is one that pushes us down or puffs us up, self-hate is at work. Speaking for myself, when I get too attached to an overly grand view of myself, the scene is set for a dramatic and disspiriting fall from grace.  I do better when I see myself in more modest terms: with my share of good points and bad just like everybody else.  So yes, maybe that "advanced soul" thing was a step in a dangerous direction.  

 

One of my faults is this: when I see someone I think is having a hard time I want to step in and fix things.  As faults go, it may not sound like the worst thing in the world, but often what people need is the dignity of their own difficulties.  So many times  fixing isn´t really for the other person anyways but more for my own sense of comfort and control.  How much harder it is to say I can see that you´re suffering and I have no idea why or what you might do. How much harder it is to say, maybe there´s a lesson in sickness but if so I haven´t the foggiest idea what it is.  Or maybe there´s no lesson at all and it just is.

[silent thunder]

The OP reminds me of a conundrum put forth in one of my favorite stories of all time.  Roadside Picnic.  It's a Russian novella that Tarkovsky masterfully adapted to the screen in the mid 70's as the film Stalker.  Brilliant.  Masterpiece.

 

 

In this film there is a Zone on the Earth where the laws of physics have been altered.  In this Zone there is an object.  A sphere.  This sphere, if you are able to find it, with the help of a Stalker, will without fail, give you your ultimate desire. 

 

It will unerringly bestow what you want more than anything else. 

 

But, do you even know what it is you want most?  The absolute core of your desire?  I think your OP asks this in a very open and powerful way. 

 

You see, there's a catch to this object.  To finding it and getting what you want...

 

Everyone who has found it so far, has committed suicide within days afterwards...

 

seems they couldn't live with the reality of what they wanted.  They couldn't handle their deepest core desire. 

 

So, the actual question in the conundrum is not do you want what you think you most want?  But do you really actually know what desire is at the very core of your essential nature? 

 

If you were forced, suddenly, with no room for error to perceive what your truest desire really is, could you abide its presence? 

[Karl]

In that film, desire was based on a hypothetical situation disconnected from reality. Our desires are not based on 'anything is possible' and the effect of believing that we can obtain anything we desire is mediated by existent reality.

[silent thunder]

and yet, the question remains...

 

Are you even aware of what you want most, of what is in your essential core? 

 

This question resonates within me in a way that instills a sense of hope and optimism, because when this deep stirring resonates within a potent question, vajra is at hand.  Insight is approaching, readily and when it arrives, it will crack my paradigm like lightning from a clear sky and the realization will be unshakable, hard as diamond, knowable as only truth may be experienced... balls to bones.

 

I wonder, when we have varying and different experiences of reality Karl... who is correct?  When someone has an experience of reality that is different from yours... who is getting the one objective reality absolutely right?

[Karl]

and yet, the question remains...

 

Are you even aware of what you want most, of what is in your essential core? 

 

This question resonates within me in a way that instills a sense of hope and optimism, because when this deep stirring resonates within a potent question, vajra is at hand.  Insight is approaching, readily and when it arrives, it will crack my paradigm like lightning from a clear sky and the realization will be unshakable, hard as diamond, knowable as only truth may be experienced... balls to bones.

 

I wonder, when we have varying and different experiences of reality Karl... who is correct?  When someone has an experience of reality that is different from yours... who is getting the one objective reality absolutely right?

 

All you are doing is wishing. You can do somethings and you can't do others. I know what my values are based in reality. My prime value is that of my own life. Perhaps I might wish to live forever, but maybe something might come along which would make me change my mind. Life is dynamic.

 

I already have the truth balls to bones. I already underwent that Damascene conversion.

 

Reality is reality, we don't experience it any differently. The difference lies in our conception of reality.

 

As I said in another thread, man has to answer 3 questions: where am I ? How do I know it ? What should I do ?

 

These questions are concurrent and not individually exclusive. When you are prepared to answer them, then you will discover the truth. The problem is that most people do not want to answer these questions for fear of the truth. Enlightenment is hardest to attain for those that fear enlightenment. It is a conundrum. You want to know, but you refuse to open your eyes for fear of what you will learn, so ignorance remains. I do not say that what you will find will delight you, but it will enlighten you.

[silent thunder]

You are a bird of interesting colors Karl. 

I'm glad you are singing in our forest.