Going to China to learn inner alchemy

[Christopher]

Dear all,

 

Good to be a part of the forum, thanks for welcoming me in.

 

I am planning to go to China in August to learn Daoist meditation. I'm pretty fluent in Mandarin having lived in China already for nearly 4 years (in Kunming) where I was mainly studying Chinese but latterly also teaching English. 

 

I've been practicing meditation for about 15 years and have done quite a few retreats. Now nearing my mid-thirties it has got to the point where it is the most important thing in my life and I'm lucky at this point in time in that I have the freedom and resources to focus on it intensively. I just came back from Sri Lanka where I stayed in a monastery practicing 8-10 hours a day of seated meditation in a small hut in the jungle. In all honesty, although I've had some interesting experiences in meditation I don't feel like I have any significant accomplishment. The intense states of mind I sometimes experience while sitting always disappear as soon as I finish. 90% of the time I feel more or less completely normal, and have not experienced the deep psychological change which I think is hoped for by everyone who seriously undertakes a program of intensive meditation. 

 

Since I like to do things independently, I've never sought a teacher (at least not successfully). Also I'm very aware of the cliche of going to China to "find my master", kind of like Luke Skywalker going to Dagobah to find Yoda. I always cringe when I hear westerners talk about "my master" with that smug look in their eye. But when I think about how much effort I've put into meditation over such a long time and how little I've really achieved I think there are only two options left to me - either go find a real master to learn from or cut my losses and just give up the whole thing.

 

So before I leave for Dagobah, I mean China, I'm here asking for advice from anyone who knows of anyone who knows of anyone who might be able to help me. I know that real authentic "enlightened" teachers don't usually advertise and that the only way to find one willing to accept me as a student is through relationship and introduction. I will be starting in Hong Kong, where I'll have to stay for a few days at least to get my visa. After that I'm thinking about heading to Wudang Mountain to study at one of the schools there. However my impression is that Wudang is kind of like another Shaolin Disneyland where kids who've seen too many kung fu movies go to dress up as Daoists and learn to fly over rooftops. So I'm a bit wary. Also I'm not looking to take part in a daily schedule filled with all kinds of kung fu acrobatics. I just want to train in meditation and the associated nei gong practices of Daoist internal alchemy (actually I do also train martial arts but just for a bit of fun now, it's not my focus anymore). 

 

Anyway, enough of my rambling. If anyone has any useful info please do share. Maybe you know of someone in Hong Kong who, while not exactly an "enlightened teacher", would at least be a good person to know. Also, if anyone is currently in China, or planning on going, and feels maybe we could help each other, by all means stay in touch - in China I use Wechat (i.d: 416360). Happy to post updates of my adventure here if people are interested.

[Miffymog]

Sorry I can't offer you any advice, but I wish you all the best in what sounds like a fantastic and exciting adventure!

[C T]

When i lived in HK back in the late 80s there used to be a Taoist wizard recluse (but he had taken a handful of students too) who lived and taught at a place called Stanley which was/is where the HK prison is located - its just by the seaside. Lovely place with quaint stalls selling touristy stuff and local delicacies. I used to go watch the classes whenever i had the time - it was very authentic-looking, and he seemed to possess extra-normal powers which was evident from observing his gait, power, etc. 

 

If he is still alive he'd probably be in his mid-80s now, cant be certain though. These masters usually hard to tell their age. 

 

Might be worth going to Stanley to ask/scout around and see what pops up. Maybe one of his students might still be there teaching. In the East, the master's abode is usually retained where possible due to feng shui reasons. 

[Aetherous]

90% of the time I feel more or less completely normal

 

That's a blessing.

 

Best of luck in the journey!

[vonkrankenhaus]

Look me up after all that isn't it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[Kubba]

"Since I like to do things independently, I've never sought a teacher (at least not successfully)."

 

Maybe lack of teacher causes lack of experiences? It is rare to achieve anything withouth a teacher. But people tend to believe in DIY and so they practice enormous amount of time for nothing - it is very ironic. There are good teachers in States (or wherever you are from) and first of all they operate in your inborn coulture which is also important. Don't you think that your idea is a bit crazy and romantic? I'd check first what is there in the US or at least I would ask for an advise a realised teacher instead of random people on the internet. But offcourse you will do as you want.

Edited June 12, 2016 by Kubba

[Gerard]

Hi Christopher,

 

Find a method that works for you, a real teacher and once you understand the method well and have become quite proficient, move on and become your own master, I mean time to be on your own and keep going because when it comes to dealing with the mind the sky is the limit.

 

Method that worked for me: Baguaquan.

 

Method that worked for people I know: Buddhist Vipassana in the Thai Forest Tradition. It didn't do that well for me. But I fully acknowledge that for other practitioners is a real gem of a practice due to the inclusion of mindful walking meditation. Pure seating meditation in our modern world is not effective tool of progress and development. Many reasons behind.

 

Best place to learn Bagua in China is Beijing since it's where most teachers are, alternatively Taipei-Taiwan, with outstanding teacher and person He Jinghan. If you work hard with him and are serious in your practice, the results are beyond belief. You'll find out with Bagua how blocked our modern minds have become and how much how we deviated from our original nature and Nature itself. Horrifying!

 

You can always come to Australia and learn this life changing art from my teacher, Geoff Sweeting (Brisbane). Here's a

of his showing two major post-heaven palms.

 

I wish you the very best of luck in your quest of finding what you are really after.

 

Edited June 12, 2016 by Gerard

[roger]

Dear all,

 

Good to be a part of the forum, thanks for welcoming me in.

 

I am planning to go to China in August to learn Daoist meditation. I'm pretty fluent in Mandarin having lived in China already for nearly 4 years (in Kunming) where I was mainly studying Chinese but latterly also teaching English. 

 

I've been practicing meditation for about 15 years and have done quite a few retreats. Now nearing my mid-thirties it has got to the point where it is the most important thing in my life and I'm lucky at this point in time in that I have the freedom and resources to focus on it intensively. I just came back from Sri Lanka where I stayed in a monastery practicing 8-10 hours a day of seated meditation in a small hut in the jungle. In all honesty, although I've had some interesting experiences in meditation I don't feel like I have any significant accomplishment. The intense states of mind I sometimes experience while sitting always disappear as soon as I finish. 90% of the time I feel more or less completely normal, and have not experienced the deep psychological change which I think is hoped for by everyone who seriously undertakes a program of intensive meditation. 

 

Since I like to do things independently, I've never sought a teacher (at least not successfully). Also I'm very aware of the cliche of going to China to "find my master", kind of like Luke Skywalker going to Dagobah to find Yoda. I always cringe when I hear westerners talk about "my master" with that smug look in their eye. But when I think about how much effort I've put into meditation over such a long time and how little I've really achieved I think there are only two options left to me - either go find a real master to learn from or cut my losses and just give up the whole thing.

 

So before I leave for Dagobah, I mean China, I'm here asking for advice from anyone who knows of anyone who knows of anyone who might be able to help me. I know that real authentic "enlightened" teachers don't usually advertise and that the only way to find one willing to accept me as a student is through relationship and introduction. I will be starting in Hong Kong, where I'll have to stay for a few days at least to get my visa. After that I'm thinking about heading to Wudang Mountain to study at one of the schools there. However my impression is that Wudang is kind of like another Shaolin Disneyland where kids who've seen too many kung fu movies go to dress up as Daoists and learn to fly over rooftops. So I'm a bit wary. Also I'm not looking to take part in a daily schedule filled with all kinds of kung fu acrobatics. I just want to train in meditation and the associated nei gong practices of Daoist internal alchemy (actually I do also train martial arts but just for a bit of fun now, it's not my focus anymore). 

 

Anyway, enough of my rambling. If anyone has any useful info please do share. Maybe you know of someone in Hong Kong who, while not exactly an "enlightened teacher", would at least be a good person to know. Also, if anyone is currently in China, or planning on going, and feels maybe we could help each other, by all means stay in touch - in China I use Wechat (i.d: 416360). Happy to post updates of my adventure here if people are interested.

 

You said, "I think there are only two options left to me- either go find a real master to learn from or cut my losses and just give up the whole thing."

 

The thing is that not having profound experiences definitely doesn't mean that your meditation practice isn't successful. That's a huge misunderstanding.

 

You might not be consciously aware of the benefit that meditating has given you. Intuitively, I sense that it has benefited you in many ways. I think you've developed a sense of pure BEING, which is one of the goals of meditation. I also sense that you've gained a great self-awareness and mental clarity. I'm getting these ideas psychically.

 

The idea that a fruitful meditation practice must involve supernatural or otherwise "spiritual" experiences is really just completely and totally false. I feel very strongly about that.

 

Look deeply at yourself and you might be able to see what you've gained from meditating so much. And DON'T QUIT! Often people quit doing their spiritual practices because their EGOS feel threatened because the person is on the verge of transcending. So ego, to protect itself, wants them to stop practicing. They're close to transcending ego.

 

I hope you find my words helpful.

 

And yes, please post updates of your experiences.

 

Peace.

Edited June 12, 2016 by roger

[RiverSnake]

I've experienced deep and profound changes from my neigong practices and i never had to leave the country. You may want to take a different direction and seek Knowledge and Conversation with your HGA, this will cause deep changes for sure. Just reach out with prayer and love. There are plenty of neigong instructors in the West as well, not sure why your going to China...what methods have you tried already? If you have just done emptiness meditation then i can understand why you haven't gotten the deep changes your seeking. 

Edited June 12, 2016 by OldChi

[Christopher]

I know there are good teachers in the west, but the reason I'm going to China is the same reason I've spent a lot of time in temples in south-east Asia: money! China is cheap, Europe/America/Japan are expensive. And in China even if I run low on cash I can easily pick up a few hours of teaching work a week which is plenty to live on. Also I studied Chinese and I like China. So I hope that will dispel some of the doubts of the naysayers who think my plan is "crazy and romantic".

 

Gerard - thank you for the practical suggestions. Yes actually I have studied samatha and vipassana meditation in Thailand and Burma, but I have always gravitated towards Daoist internal alchemy. When I said I have never sought instruction I specifically mean that I have never become a student/disciple within this particular meditation tradition, but would like to do so. Maybe I should have been clearer. I've checked the videos of He Jinghan - thank you for that. I think Beijing would be a good place to go as a starting point at least.

[RiverSnake]

Many blessings on your trip. My neigong teacher studied with a Master named Wang Juemin in China. Not sure if he still teaches, but he is well known in China and may be of interest to check out. Best of luck on your path.

Edited June 12, 2016 by OldChi

[silent thunder]

Very cool Christopher.  I hope you find what you seek and I would love to follow any updates you'd like to share.

Sounds like it will be amazing.

[Christopher]

Thanks for the kind words. Will definitely write up any interesting experiences

[sillybearhappyhoneyeater]

If you go to Taiwan, look up a group on facebook called Xian Dao (in Chinese obviously).  The teacher is based on Taizhong and knows how to teach Danfa.

 

Mainland China is a piece of shit when it comes to learning spiritual disciplines.   There are so few genuine teachers that are willing to talk to foreigners, and so many false teachers who would love to take your money and lead you astray.

 

If you read Chinese, don't wait, start reading the classics right now.  Start with Chen Yingning's Xian Xue and Jiang Weiqiao's various works (shi yinzi jing zuo yang sheng pian is the best one).   you can study driectly from Jiang's document, and Chen Yingning's work is not too hard to understand.   Finding a teacher might be really difficult, although you could do that standard thing and go to Wudang and hope someone who knows what they are doing takes pity on you.

[grassmountiansage]

Have Fun!

[silent thunder]

If I had the resources to relocate to China, I'd rent a place nearby and knock on Wang Li Ping's door.

[Gerard]

Christopher,

 

Just in case you didnt come across this excellent introductory video:

 

 

It's just an example of how the right teacher, the right location for you (Yin people benefit from Yang locations and vice versa) and the right timing in your life, which Phra Frank kindly discusses above are major factors for success.

 

China is not "shit" as mentioned above if you go to the right place and find the right teacher that suits you:

 

http://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=592 (Bagua in Beijing).

 

My teacher learnt Bagua from master Wang Tong (Liang Zhenpu's lineage) and what he learnt (deeper aspects of Xingyi and Bagua) was invaluable. A real treasure of Chinese civilisation.

 

If you are looking for Qigong, be prepared to get conned and learn nothing because Qigong is a product to the Cultural Revolution aimed at the general population, so one must expect lower results. On the other hand, Bagua like the rest of the Traditional Internal Arts is a product of the Traditional China and initially taught to inner door disciples in order to maintain the quality of the art. Bagua requires hard work, Qigong does not. Many Bagua masters fled China during the Cultural Revolution, others went quiet and stopped teaching in public, some even were persecuted by the Red Army and even had grenades thrown at their places of residence because they feared to confront them directly

 

Same goes with the Thai Forest Vipassana tradition: hard work for 10+ hours a day. Many come to a retreat and quit because they can't handle it! This is not a 20 min easy Qigong workout session.

 

You might want to open a new thread on the topic or browse that forum for further info.

 

Best of luck.

Edited June 14, 2016 by Gerard

[Orion]

You can undertake the path anywhere. It's location independent.

 

However, if your spirit is calling you to travel somewhere else and it feels right, then listen to it.

[Jox]

"If I had resources to relocate to China, I would rent a place nearby and knock on Wang Li Pings door."

 

Thats is a good idea, but I wonder, if it would worked ... Who knows ... may be ... 

Edited June 14, 2016 by Jox

[Christopher]

Interesting that you mention Wang Liping, i'm reading his biography at the moment. You think it would be possible to just turn up? Might not be a bad idea, although i don't know where he lives.

 

Not so interested in learning BaGua. If i were going to study an internal martial art it would be Yiquan because i'm very interested in zhan zhuang. So i'm thinking about Yao Chengguang's school in Beijing.

 

Anyway looks like i'll have to stay in Hong Kong for a few weeks to wait for my 12 month tourist visa. If i can find someone there to start would be great.

 

Thanks all for suggestions

[idquest]

Interesting that you mention Wang Liping, i'm reading his biography at the moment. You think it would be possible to just turn up? Might not be a bad idea, although i don't know where he lives.

 

 

Why not attend one of his retreats? He is available, just do some search...

[silent thunder]

He holds one or two retreats a year.  I went last December.  Best decision ever.

[Christopher]

There is a retreat in December which i have emailed for some info about. Can i ask, from your experience attending last year why do you feel it was worthwhile?

[silent thunder]

I can share some, but the majority of it, I still haven't put into words.  It was all very personal.  A lot of heart work, which was the focus of my attendance.

 

Those ten days were imbued with deep and profound shift and my overriding reaction is still gratitude that this type of teaching is actually available to a simple Midwestern guy.  Master Wang and Richard Liao make the work accessible, but do not water anything down.  It was remarkable, I remember when working with the trees, how Richard would remark and make suggestions the instant I lost touch with the energy.  These guys both operate on a profound level of achievement.

 

Sittings were twice a day with a concise lecture on concepts and time for questions usually prior to the sit, walking meditations in the mornings, tree work at night, and sleep meditations before bed...  some of it, the sleep meditations in particular, were so intense it expanded my view of what's possible in life.

 

It's affected my stillness work in a deep and subtle manner... while it's still just me sitting there, the words I'd use to describe the changes would be... refined, tangible and potent. 

 

It's affected my Qi Gong in a similar manner.  I'm fortunate that my Qi Gong practice albeit from a different teacher, is also Wudang and is compatible.

 

I share a bit of detail in this two page thread started by Charles who attended the April retreat.  http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/40149-questions-for-wang-li-ping/?p=664876

 

I had no health issues going in and requested no particular healing in the advance questionnaire, but a few days in, I realized that I hadn't been using my reading glasses.  While sitting at the restaurant for my evening meal, I suddenly realized I could see crystal clear and just forgot I even brought them along.   I haven't needed them since.

 

Another student experienced healing in his hip.  He told me he hadn't been able to sit cross legged on the floor to meditate for four years, so he got clearance to use a chair in the sessions.  In one of the early sessions, he said he felt a pop in that hip and from that point on, he was able to sit on the floor again with the rest of us.

 

 

 

 

[Bearded Dragon]

Why ruin all the fun by planning it out? Just wing it. To make another Star Wars reference, "Concentrate on the moment. Feel, don't think".