Dzogchen Thogal: a Buddhist creative adaptation of a Daoist technique?

[Wells]

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Edited July 1, 2016 by Wells

[Zhongyongdaoist]

Actually I have thought something like this for a while, which is why I posted this:
 

 

Whatever one may want to think about this and Zen, according to Taoist Yoga; Alchemy and Immortality, it is sound Daoist internal alchemy:

 

Chapter 16 Appearing in Space, p.174 - 176

My master Liao K'ung said: 'The return to nothingness is achieved in the final stage of training in which the practiser, while maintaining serenity of heart, lets the all-embracing positive spirit leave his bodily form to appear in the world and to perform its work of salvation such as alleviating human sufferings, curing the sick, etc. and then re-enter its original cavity (tsu ch'iao, between and behind the eyes) in order to be preserved in the ocean of (essential) nature. It should not be allowed again to leave the body, which now should be closed and further sublimated in order to enter the spiritual body which comprises (essential) nature and (eternal) life in their prenatal condition. The physical body is then further sublimated so that it is neither existing nor nonexistent, neither form nor void, neither within nor without, neither coming nor going, and neither beginning nor ending. This is done with the same care that a dragon nurtures its pearl while remaining hidden and motionless, and because of which a sitting hen refuses to leave her eggs; this condition of quiet and stillness should be held until it reaches its highest degree.'

All previous achievements such as appearing in countless transformation bodies riding on dragons and storks¹, walking on the sun and playing with the moon, as well as

Footnote: 1 Dragon and stork are emblems of longevity.

thousands of transmutations should now be gathered in the original cavity of spirit (between and behind the eyes) in order to be reduced to the state of complete stillness and extinction. This is called the condition of a hibernating dragon. It leads to the complete extinction (of all phenomena) which should be carefully maintained in order to prevent positive spirit from going out (leaving the body), so that it can be further sublimated to reach its highest degree. This continual sublimation will result in deeper concealment of the spiritual fire in the light of vitality so that the positive spirit will be kept in its original cavity (tsu ch'iao). As time passes while dwelling in utter serenity, the true fire of positive spirit will develop fully and radiate inside and outside its cavity to become all-embracing, shining on heaven, earth and myriad things which will appear within its light.

The training should continue no matter how long it takes until the four elements' (that make the body) scatter, and space pulverises leaving no traces behind; this is the golden immortal stage of the indestructible diamond-body. This is the ultimate achievement of the training which now comes to an end.
(Taoist Yoga; Alchemy and Immortality, Lu K'uan Yü, Samuel Weiser 1970, Emphasis mine, ZYD)

Also as a note the Ur-text from which this comes, Xingming guizhi (性命圭旨) is, as Daniel Burton-Rose makes clear in his Master's thesis, a sycretic work written by Confucians and intended to be a guide to cultivation that crossed sectarian divisions to unify Confucian, Daoist and Buddhist cultivation in a single work. Burton's Rose's thesis can be read here:

Integrating Inner Alchemy into Late Ming Cultural History etc.

Chapter Two is most important for the discussion of the Ruist, i.e. Confucian aspects of its background and authorship.

but I really didn't want to get into a lot of polemics, sot I left it at that. I am only to happy to leave polemics to Wells, but comparing what Jax wrote to details of the Taoist Yoga text is, shall we say, enlightening?  The root ideas of the Taoist Yoga text date back to the Waring States period work the Guanzi.

[thelerner]

Rip-off has such negative connotations.  Cross-pollination is probably a better word.  Its nice to have lineage and history but often its more legendary (& hype) then fact.  P.R. is not recent invention and every one needs to claim there system is old and the best.  It doesn't help when texts pop up in hidden/secret books " Vimalamitra reportedly concealed four Nyingtik texts in the caves of Samye Chimpu" filled with words reportedly and supposedly etc.,

 

Not that it matters if the practice works.   Beyond my teacher's teacher, veracity gets a thread worn.  We can still learn from it, but separating true history from legend and myth gets harder.  Particularly when the stories get more fantastic and further from everyday experience. 

Edited June 14, 2016 by thelerner

[joeblast]

Thunder and Lake are not East and West;

Water and Fire are not North and South.

The handle of the dipper circles the heavens,

Requiring people to understand how to aggregate.

 

The firing process does not call for set times;

The winter solstice is not in December.

As for the rules of bathing, spring, and autumn

are also metaphors without reality

 

 

 

 

 

For the firing times, the classics speak of the yijing hexagrams

But it is wrong to ponder the lines and cling to the images

It is all a matter of needing to understand the principles on yin and yang,

Advance or withdraw according to the time, as indicated.

[Wells]

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Edited July 1, 2016 by Wells

[thelerner]

Well, what matters is that if Jax' claims are true, then thogal seemingly works no matter the background before or system in which it is practiced.

So it has to be seen as a simple technique and stand-alone practice that universally works for everybody.

In other words, all the holy cows of systemized buddhism as buddhist guru yoga, the dzogchen preliminaries, the dzogchen mindset, membership in a buddhist lineage etc. are revealed as being completely unnecessary, because thogal works without them to achieve rainbow body and complete enlightenment!

sounds good.  Yet.. I can go into a Buddhist temple right here in Chicago and see Buddhists doing buddhist things.  Learn such holy cows as meditation, equanimity, dharma stuff- how to live and think better. 

 

I can't go to a Thogal place and see or speak to anyone completely enlightened or with rainbow body.  Is there anyplace on Earth one can go to see such?  If not.. then it may not be the 'simple technique and stand-alone practice that universally works for everybody'. 

 

I wish it was.

Edited June 14, 2016 by thelerner

[Wells]

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Edited July 1, 2016 by Wells

[Apech]

What are you talking about?

Advice from authorities on how to live your life "better" or "be better"?

If you don't find your way on your own and need an authority to tell you how to live, what to do and who to be,

you can also go to a psychologist or life coach.

I am talking about achieving complete enlightenment.

And "buddhist things" won't help you to achieve that if Jax is right.

Thogal will.

 

 

Please do it and then appear before us in your light body.

 

But first change your avatar it's very distracting.

[Wells]

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Edited July 1, 2016 by Wells

[Kar3n]

What are you talking about?

Advice from authorities on how to live your life "better" or "be better"?

If you don't find your way on your own and need an authority to tell you how to live, what to do and who to be,

you can also go to a psychologist or life coach.

I am talking about achieving complete enlightenment.

And "buddhist things" won't help you to achieve that if Jax is right.

Thogal will.

 

Isn't Thogal a Buddhist thing, a Dzogchen practice?

[Wells]

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Edited July 1, 2016 by Wells

[Kar3n]

forum rule #1: Don't comment in a thread if you haven't read the initial post!

 

I did read it

[ralis]

I did read it

What he is saying is that thogal is cross cultural and no one or group owns it. That is to say there is no copyright. Edited June 14, 2016 by ralis

[Bud Jetsun]

Religion means to re-link (to the Dao/Logos/Reality etc)

 

The label choice is not the link.

The expressed labeled aspects of the linking process are not the link.

The categorization of various linking processes are not the link.

A book or vast collection of books or memorizing and repeating the vast collection of books is not the link.

 

It is possible for a being to spend this one moment of life seeking out and highlighting infinite fallacy infinite aspects of and shared or unshared choices in optional belief sets.

 

It is also possible to instead appreciate the inseparable inexpressible Dao/Logos/reality etc.

 

This is why enlightened beings while alive opposed people even writing down there words, because this leads to worship of the words and labels and people eventually kill in the name of it or get killed in the name of it.

 

At the moment one thinks their choice in religion/book/texts/practice is something which justifys defensive/offensive actions to be taken, this is the instant it's usefulness to aid in link/linking to the Dao/Logos/reality has been replaced by some human constructed delusion of preference and attachments to hinder the being from achieving liberation.

 

Unlimited Love,

-Bud

Edited June 14, 2016 by Bud Jetsun

[Zhongyongdaoist]

What he is saying is that thogal is cross cultural and no one or group owns it. That is to say there is no copyright.

Yes, this is exactly the reason why I have followed Wells posts on "Rainbow/Light" body for sometime.

 

The question is, how much does Buddhist belief and practice contribute to achieving a "Light Body"? And further does one achieve such a "Light Body" because of or in spite of Buddhist belief and practices?

 

The Taoist Yoga book from which I have quoted is a "stand alone" practice, as written it is intended to be as complete a treatment of the process as can be put into print. Regarding its cross cultural nature, early on it has this to say:

 

It is (in the centre of the brain behind) the spot between the eyes. Lao Tsu called it 'the gateway to heaven and earth'; hence he urged people to concentrate on the centre in order to realise the oneness (of all things). In this centre is a pearl of the size of a grain of rice, which is the centre between heaven and earth in the human body (i.e. the microcosm); it is the cavity of prenatal vitality. To know where it lies is not enough, for it does not include the wondrous light of (essential) nature which is symbolised by a circle which Confucius called virtuous perfection (jen); the Book of Change calls it the ultimateless (wu chi), the Buddha perfect knowledge (yuan ming) and the Taoists the elixir of immortality or spiritual light; which all point to the prenatal One True Vitality. (Taoist Yoga; Alchemy and Immortality, Lu K'uan Yü, Samuel Weiser 1970, p. 4, Emphasis mine, ZYD)

 

It starts from simple "sitting and forgetting":

 

My masters Liao Jan and Liao K'ung once said: 'When beginning to cultivate (essential) nature and (eternal) life, it is necessary first to develop nature.' Before sitting in meditation, it is important to put an end to all rising thoughts and to loosen garments and belt to relax the body and avoid interfering with the free circulation of blood. After sitting the body should be (senseless) like a log and the heart (mind) unstirred like cold ashes. (Taoist Yoga; Alchemy and Immortality, Lu K'uan Yü, Samuel Weiser 1970, p. 1, Emphasis mine, ZYD)

 

So if a "Light Body" is cultivated by Daoist practices such as outlined in this book, then how much is its success or failure dependent on either Buddhist belief or practice?  Or are aspects of Buddhist belief and practice actually harmful to the process, which is at least implied by Wells continually noting, as he has, how many Buddhists there are and how few attain "Light Bodies".

 

These are the types of questions that concern Wells.

 

As a final note, I will have to say that I agree with the idea that the thread title is a little harsh, but also that the issues of the thread are important to investigate.

[ralis]

Yes, this is exactly the reason why I have followed Wells posts on "Rainbow/Light" body for sometime.

The question is, how much does Buddhist belief and practice contribute to achieving a "Light Body"? And further does one achieve such a "Light Body" because of or in spite of Buddhist belief and practices?

The Taoist Yoga book from which I have quoted is a "stand alone" practice, as written it is intended to be as complete a treatment of the process as can be put into print. Regarding its cross cultural nature, early on it has this to say:

 

 

 

 

It starts from simple "sitting and forgetting":

 

 

 

So if a "Light Body" is cultivated by Daoist practices such as outlined in this book, then how much is its success or failure dependent on either Buddhist belief or practice?  Or are aspects of Buddhist belief and practice actually harmful to the process, which is at least implied by Wells continually noting, as he has, how many Buddhists there are and how few attain "Light Bodies".

 

These are the types of questions that concern Wells.

 

As a final note, I will have to say that I agree with the idea that the thread title is a little harsh, but also that the issues of the thread are important to investigate.

I have a few comments which I will write later today. I appreciate the well thought out response.

[TheDustAutumn]

Thunder and Lake are not East and West;

Water and Fire are not North and South.

The handle of the dipper circles the heavens,

Requiring people to understand how to aggregate.

 

The firing process does not call for set times;

The winter solstice is not in December.

As for the rules of bathing, spring, and autumn

are also metaphors without reality

 

 

 

 

 

For the firing times, the classics speak of the yijing hexagrams

But it is wrong to ponder the lines and cling to the images

It is all a matter of needing to understand the principles on yin and yang,

Advance or withdraw according to the time, as indicated.

That just says that the timings for the refining are internal and dependent on ones own energy ebb and flow rather then the passing of the four seasons and natural lunar and solar cycles. How is this related to the discussion?

[TheDustAutumn]

Well, what matters is that if Jax' claims are true, then thogal seemingly works no matter the background before or system in which it is practiced.

So it has to be seen as a simple technique and stand-alone practice that universally works for everybody.

In other words, all the holy cows of systemized buddhism as buddhist guru yoga, the dzogchen preliminaries, the dzogchen mindset, membership in a buddhist lineage etc. are revealed as being completely unnecessary, because thogal works without them to achieve rainbow body and complete enlightenment!

Actually quite the opposite. If those claims are true than the practice of thogal (as Xing practice in essence) doesn't work without a foundation and without a Ming practice to fuel it. Which would explain why so few Buddhists who practice the system actually achieve jalu(and why also so few taoists achieve it  as they lack the foundation practices)

[Wells]

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Edited July 1, 2016 by Wells

[ralis]

Actually quite the opposite. If those claims are true than the practice of thogal (as Xing practice in essence) doesn't work without a foundation and without a Ming practice to fuel it. Which would explain why so few Buddhists who practice the system actually achieve jalu(and why also so few taoists achieve it  as they lack the foundation practices)

 

I don't agree. The vast majority of monks are not given these practices at all, let alone anyone outside the monastic system. Such persons are chained by vows and most likely only do one tantric practice for their entire life. If they are ever deemed worthy and that is a big if, they may be introduced to higher practices. It was Norbu who took the risk and introduced Dzogchen and associated practices to anyone that wants to learn and practice.

 

The problem is one of authoritarian power over others by the so called dharma kings sitting on their golden thrones. Such positions are acquired by a reincarnated tulku who is given the same monastic position as last lifetime.

[Wells]

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Edited July 1, 2016 by Wells

[ralis]

When I took my first so called initiation way back in 1987, Lama Rinchen said that I was guaranteed full enlightenment in seven lifetimes. Really? It didn't take long for me to realize what a joke that was and I would be never given the internal most secret tantras in anyway whatsoever, unless I conducted a 3 year retreat. That was not going to happen.

 

My point is that all the hype around associated practices as a way to earn one's way into thogal is bogus and delays one's realization of potential.

[Wells]

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Edited July 1, 2016 by Wells

[TheDustAutumn]

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Edited August 8, 2016 by TheDustAutumn

[ralis]

That's only partially true.

First of all any Xing practices(like The Secret of the golden flower) consume yuan qi. It's like bodybuilding without a strong diet that includes a good balance of carbohydrates and protein to support optimal muscle growth. Even if those practices lead to enlightenment on their own, without replenishing yuan qi, the more you advance the harder it would become as the body's storage would be converted into universal energy.

Second, in taoism jing is converted to qi, qi to shen, shen to emptiness(last two steps are Xing practices). If this is correct then thogal deals either with shen or with emptiness. That means that you first need to have qi to convert to shen and then to emptiness. Qi is electric, like the one Mo pai demonstrates. if you don't have qi than what exactly would you use to refine to shen and further to emptiness? How can Xing be achieved without having the foundation(formed and sealed dantian) and basic Ming practice(jing refined to qi)?

 

As I have said before on this site is the following; Any attempt to use one's own energy via cultivation is futile and anthropocentric.The ability/will to acquire the universal life force is the real work and once attuned, there needs no replenishing. Thogal when practiced correctly does just that. The thogal/longde postures with sky gazing or other means will absolutely destroy your concepts in short order.