Dzogchen Thogal: a Buddhist creative adaptation of a Daoist technique?

[TheDustAutumn]

As I have said before on this site is the following; Any attempt to use one's own energy via cultivation is futile and anthropocentric.The ability/will to acquire the universal life force is the real work and once attuned, there needs no replenishing. Thogal when practiced correctly does just that. The thogal/longde postures with sky gazing or other means will absolutely destroy your concepts in short order.

That might as well be true, I'm no expert in Buddhism. I only said this from a Taoism perspective. In Taoism the body's energy is used as a cathalist for enlightenment and without it through Taoist practices enlightenment is basically impossible. if thogal comes from taoism than it might shares the same principles. If not, than it may work totally different and might be a more advanced practice.

[ralis]

That might as well be true, I'm no expert in Buddhism. I only said this from a Taoism perspective. In Taoism the body's energy is used as a cathalist for enlightenment and without it through Taoist practices enlightenment is basically impossible. if thogal comes from taoism than it might shares the same principles. If not, than it may work totally different and might be a more advanced practice.

 

The problem is one of anthropocentric views which are limiting. I can go into detail if anyone wants, but I will not waste my time with baseless arguing.

[Wells]

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Edited July 1, 2016 by Wells

[TheDustAutumn]

Sunlight surrounds his body and he rises up to the Palace of Universal Yang."

In the Yü-i chieh-lin ching, this experience is described in the following way:

[The adept] sees in the sun five colors flowing into a halo which reaches his whole body and descends

down to his feet. Through concentration, he then makes the five breaths rise up to the top of his skull.

Thereupon all of the five colors of the floating halo formed from sunlight penetrate into his mouth. Then

a Purple Breath as large as the pupil of the eye spontaneously appears inside this floating cloud made from sunlight. This breath is made up of ten layers and blazes in the middle of the five-colored light. ...

Taoists in particular and Chinese in general have the habit of speaking in metaphors. In my opinion the passage refers to the qi of the 5 elements (the internal organs) which in internal alchemy are constituents of the Immortal fetus along the other 3 ingredients to make the 8 trigrams.

About the "deities" let's not forget that classical texts also speak of the "gods" that "live" inside the organs and we all know they actually refer to the energy inherent in those organs. Grain of salt is all I'm saying

Edited June 15, 2016 by TheDustAutumn

[ralis]

That might as well be true, I'm no expert in Buddhism. I only said this from a Taoism perspective. In Taoism the body's energy is used as a cathalist for enlightenment and without it through Taoist practices enlightenment is basically impossible. if thogal comes from taoism than it might shares the same principles. If not, than it may work totally different and might be a more advanced practice.

 

One must cease all identity with any ism or belief system which is a limiting trap. "I am a Buddhist" or I am a Taoist" are just limiting memes.

[ralis]

Taoists in particular and Chinese in general have the habit of speaking in metaphors. In my opinion the passage refers to the qi of the 5 elements (the internal organs) which in internal alchemy are constituents of the Immortal fetus along the other 3 ingredients to make the 8 trigrams.

About the "deities" let's not forget that classical texts also speak of the "gods" that "live" inside the organs and we all know they actually refer to the energy inherent in those organs. Grain of salt is all I'm saying

 

This is the trap I am referring to in that the work is only internal and denies an external reality. This view is fraught with contracted identity/limitation with very little if any creative force.

[ralis]

According to this quote from Jax' taoist source, you seemingly absorb sunlight as the fuel to achieve rainbow body,

which might be the universal life force ralis was talking about:

 

"Advanced practice" might even be an understatement.

According to this quote from Jax' taoist source, with thogal you actually create deities out of light and from nothingness inside your vision and system:

 

Somewhere in the book 'Qigong Empowerment' the author claims it takes around seven years of absorbing sunlight to have enough fuel to achieve the 'rainbow body'.

[TheDustAutumn]

One must cease all identity with any ism or belief system which is a limiting trap. "I am a Buddhist" or I am a Taoist" are just limiting memes.

I believe that people confuse results with practice methods. There is no need to cease anything,Ceasing is a byproduct of correct practice, not something that I can artificially do to fit into the pattern of what some say an enlightenment person should act like.Until I become enlightened distinctions, -isms and logical patterns are necessary to me. If i don't act like an enlightened person is because my practice hasn't got me there, there is no need to fake it through mental contortionism and behavioral training.

Lets drop this type of pointless conceptual nihilism, shall we? The thread is about TAOISM and BUDDHISM, ok?

Edited June 15, 2016 by TheDustAutumn

[ralis]

I believe that people confuse results with practice methods. There is no need to cease anything,Ceasing is a byproduct of correct practice, not something that I can artificially do to fit into the pattern of what some say an enlightenment person should act like.Until I become enlightened distinctions and logical patterns are necessary to me. If i don't act like an enlightened person is because my practice hasn't got me there, there is no need to fake it through mental contortionism and behavioral training.

 

You misunderstand me as so many do. Just give up the identity of isness and the belief in an identity as I stated before. This is a choice and not a practice that takes lifetimes. To put it simply, language does not directly correspond to objects.

 

I never believe or state that I am a Buddhist or belong to any other spiritual club. That gives me much freedom.

 

Your answer indicates a static belief system and is a hindrance to any evolution.

Edited June 15, 2016 by ralis

[TheDustAutumn]

I  am a practicing Taoism and I accept being identified and identifying myself to a certain degree with it. I say this not only because the philosophy is very close to my own opinions but also because I have respect for my teachers who are Taoists and my teachers teachers whose practices ii follow who are also Taoists. Having respect for cultures and the origins of your practice just like having respect for your parents is not something to be ashamed of and i see no reason to let go of it. You are quite free to do as you please though, and so will i.

[ralis]

I  am a practicing Taoism and I accept being identified and identifying myself to a certain degree with it. I say this not only because the philosophy is very close to my own opinions but also because I have respect for my teachers who are Taoists and my teachers teachers whose practices ii follow who are also Taoists. Having respect for cultures and the origins of your practice just like having respect for your parents is not something to be ashamed of and i see no reason to let go of it. You are quite free to do as you please though, and so will i.

 

FYI if you wish to participate in this thread please review the OP.

 

 

forum rule #1: Don't comment in a thread if you haven't read the initial post!

 

http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/41273-dzogchen-thogal-a-buddhist-rip-off-of-a-taoist-practice/#entry693030

Edited June 15, 2016 by ralis

[ralis]

I believe that people confuse results with practice methods. There is no need to cease anything,Ceasing is a byproduct of correct practice, not something that I can artificially do to fit into the pattern of what some say an enlightenment person should act like.Until I become enlightened distinctions, -isms and logical patterns are necessary to me. If i don't act like an enlightened person is because my practice hasn't got me there, there is no need to fake it through mental contortionism and behavioral training.

Lets drop this type of pointless conceptual nihilism, shall we? The thread is about TAOISM and BUDDHISM, ok?

 

The thread is not about Daoism or Buddhism, whatsoever. What I wrote is not in regards to nihilism, but freedom from encumbrances of rigid identity which a practice such as thogal will accomplish. A Daoist or Buddhist or any other contracted identity will never attain the body of light or evolve except to the limits of such identity. The thogal practices are cross cultural and as I said earlier, are not copyright and belong to no one or group and therefor are not Daoist or Buddhist.

 

By the way, all caps is shouting.

Edited June 15, 2016 by ralis

[Tibetan_Ice]

Jax wrote the following text below on facebook.

He claims that he found evidence that thogal is a buddhist rip-off of taoist source practices!

What do you think?

Jax is full of shit again.

 

First off, since when have you seen any thogal instructions that say to play with the light as in his Taoist quote:

 

Sunlight surrounds his body and he rises up to the Palace of Universal Yang."

In the Yü-i chieh-lin ching, this experience is described in the following way:

[The adept] sees in the sun five colors flowing into a halo which reaches his whole body and descends

down to his feet. Through concentration, he then makes the five breaths rise up to the top of his skull.

Thereupon all of the five colors of the floating halo formed from sunlight penetrate into his mouth. Then

a Purple Breath as large as the pupil of the eye spontaneously appears inside this floating cloud made from sunlight. This breath is made up of ten layers and blazes in the middle of the five-colored light. ...

 

"This exercise concludes with the general inflammation of the whole person of the visionary carried to the point of incandescence. As the text says: "[The adept] must make sure that the sun's light sets his whole self ablaze so that, inside, it [the light] spreads up to his intestines and stomach and that, both inside and outside, he feels as if

everything is illuminated."

 

 

It is mentioned so many times in the various thogal instructions to place very little emphasis on the visions. One does not play with the light, direct it with breath etc. there is no reifying or grasping, and those Daoist exercises are a severe form of grasping.

 

Also, thogal is not about sun gazing, it is about creating the right conditions to activate the Kati channel and reveal that all perceptions (pure and impure) arise from the heart. If anything, part of thogal is using the luminous sky to reveal the preliminary visions. But I remind you, there is also the dark retreat where there is no light needed . What does that say?

 

 

What Jax is doing is he is trying to discredit Dzogchen and remove or belittle the trappings because he has pissed off many authentic teachers like Tenzin Namdak, Tony Duff and Jean Luc Archard that he is trying to find some kind of safe haven, one in which he can retain some kind of authenticity.

Read this thread, all the way through.

 

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=20281

 

Other points:

- Dzogchen probably came from Bon over 28,000 years ago.

- Where exactly in the Daoist practices do they mention anything about the required thogal postures?

- and sure, there is some rigpa in the eyes, but there is the biggest pool in the heart.

- there is no mention of the three types of gazes, the nirmanakaya gaze (up) the sambogakaya gaze (straight ahead) nor the downward nirmanakaya gaze.

 

Although some of the recognition of some of the pathways are similar and some terminology is similar, there are enough differences in the practices (and his sourceless quotes) that I do not believe that Thogal came from Daoism, or even comes close.

 

 

My opinion.

[Wells]

.

Edited July 1, 2016 by Wells

[RigdzinTrinley]

Thogal is way cool duuuude

[ralis]

Jax is full of shit again.

 

First off, since when have you seen any thogal instructions that say to play with the light as in his Taoist quote:

 

It is mentioned so many times in the various thogal instructions to place very little emphasis on the visions. One does not play with the light, direct it with breath etc. there is no reifying or grasping, and those Daoist exercises are a severe form of grasping.

 

Also, thogal is not about sun gazing, it is about creating the right conditions to activate the Kati channel and reveal that all perceptions (pure and impure) arise from the heart. If anything, part of thogal is using the luminous sky to reveal the preliminary visions. But I remind you, there is also the dark retreat where there is no light needed . What does that say?

 

 

What Jax is doing is he is trying to discredit Dzogchen and remove or belittle the trappings because he has pissed off many authentic teachers like Tenzin Namdak, Tony Duff and Jean Luc Archard that he is trying to find some kind of safe haven, one in which he can retain some kind of authenticity.

Read this thread, all the way through.

 

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=20281

 

Other points:

- Dzogchen probably came from Bon over 28,000 years ago.

- Where exactly in the Daoist practices do they mention anything about the required thogal postures?

- and sure, there is some rigpa in the eyes, but there is the biggest pool in the heart.

- there is no mention of the three types of gazes, the nirmanakaya gaze (up) the sambogakaya gaze (straight ahead) nor the downward nirmanakaya gaze.

 

Although some of the recognition of some of the pathways are similar and some terminology is similar, there are enough differences in the practices (and his sourceless quotes) that I do not believe that Thogal came from Daoism, or even comes close.

 

 

My opinion.

 

That quote from the Dharma Wheel contains much hearsay with no evidence to substantiate such accusations against Jax.. Jax has stated on his FB page that he has been authorized by Norbu to teach and yet people are accusing him of lies and deceit.

 

Why is bringing Malcolm into the discussion again helpful to this discussion? There seems to be a cabal of Malcolm worshipers that cling to every word he writes. All I see from him are endless streams of quotes from texts which are legalistic arguments at best.

[ralis]

I  am a practicing Taoism and I accept being identified and identifying myself to a certain degree with it. I say this not only because the philosophy is very close to my own opinions but also because I have respect for my teachers who are Taoists and my teachers teachers whose practices ii follow who are also Taoists. Having respect for cultures and the origins of your practice just like having respect for your parents is not something to be ashamed of and i see no reason to let go of it. You are quite free to do as you please though, and so will i.

 

From what I read, your teachers are replacement parents? If so, that is a very common projection.

[rex]

....  said that I was guaranteed full enlightenment in seven lifetimes. Really? It didn't take long for me to realize what a joke that was and I would be never given the internal most secret tantras in anyway whatsoever, unless I conducted a 3 year retreat. That was not going to happen.

 

Seven lifetimes is certainly not as efficacious as this current life, but it is preferable to infinite lifetimes in samsara, with phowa and bardo practice providing further accleration opportunities between each subsequent life.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[thelerner]

Ramalinga attained rainbow body by gazing at the light of a butter lamp while worshipping its light as god.

What does that say?

Don't know.   He did alot more then just gaze at light though.  He was a holy man; far as I can see selfless, vegetarian, very progressive, mystic, radical folk Hindu..  Being a holy man means an immense amount of internal and external cleansing, something beyond intellectual and not easily replicated without treading the path of the mystic oneself.  In truth, often to our eyes the holy man is a little or a lotta crazy.  It goes with the territory. 

 

I'm not sure we can say it was the butter,  lamp, staring or time.  Since was over 120 years ago, we can't even leave out the possible that someone clubbed him, took his body away and his devoted followers assumed he's disappeared up to heaven.  Not that its more likely but its still in the realm of possibility unless you have other long term butter lamp witnesses attaining rainbow body. 

 

Unless we want to credit the purely ascetic rout, ie find yourself in a cave or something close for x amount of years, say 9, find an object of worthy sacred contemplation and maybe you'll get it.   Maybe that works, in a time period from 40 days to a decade.  Yet that's a lotta human life to be giving up, for something that may not happen.

[doc benway]

Jax wrote the following text below on facebook.

He claims that he found evidence that thogal is a buddhist rip-off of taoist source practices!

What do you think?

I think it's instructive how Jax went from the object of your derision to an authority on the relationship between Buddhism, Daoism, and thodgal in a matter of days...

 

edited to be constructive rather than critical

Edited June 16, 2016 by steve

[Apech]

I think it's hilarious how Jax went from the object of your derision to an authority on the relationship between Buddhism, Daoism, and thodgal in a matter of days...

 

 

Zero to hero.

[C T]

I think there is a universal soldier (or soldiers) of dzogtune out there near the Mogao Caves in Dunhuang, China.

 

It seems the cave was used as a repository, or as some scholars say, used as a dumping ground for 'sacred waste' - esoteric and exoteric manuscripts from various traditions, not least Daoism, Nestorian Christianity, and of course Buddhism, which forms the bulk of the 'waste'. 

 

So its really hard to pinpoint which tradition influenced who, and who, in turn, influenced what. 

 

For definitive answers, it would really take someone to go back in time with a hard finger to identify the rip-off artistes. Somehow i doubt Jax would be the one to go. Maybe Wells ought to volunteer in his rainbow suit. If you do, dont forget to bring your designer Thodgal goggles with you 

Edited June 15, 2016 by C T

[Zhongyongdaoist]

Taoists in particular and Chinese in general have the habit of speaking in metaphors. In my opinion the passage refers to the qi of the 5 elements (the internal organs) which in internal alchemy are constituents of the Immortal fetus along the other 3 ingredients to make the 8 trigrams.

About the "deities" let's not forget that classical texts also speak of the "gods" that "live" inside the organs and we all know they actually refer to the energy inherent in those organs. Grain of salt is all I'm saying (Emphasis mine, ZYD)

Based on my own experience Daoist teachings about the “Inner Gods” are not metaphorical, but are real and provided a level of integration in practice that goes beyond mere “energy” into the sphere of intelligent guidance of organic function.

 

Case in point, in a transmission ceremony of the “Three-Five Surveyors of Merit”, i.e., the Three Pure Ones and the Five Virtuous Emperors, during the transmission of the Green Emperor of the East and the Liver, among other things, a woman complained of feeling extreme heat, like being in an oven, which dissipated after a few minutes. It turned out that this woman, a licensed acupuncturist, had very difficult menses, but the menstrual period immediately afterward passed without her even noticing it. Her subsequent periods were hardly noticeable, lacking pain from cramping, emotional distress and the heavy bleeding that her skill in acupuncture had not alleviated. The woman had not mentioned her difficulties before the rite and it was not done as any type of healing, rather as a ritual transmission for initiatory purposes. In short the “healing” was a spontaneous effect of the ritual and not any intended result, and as such indicates agency on the part of the Virtuous Green Emperor of the Liver. This is just one example I could cite of what seems to be more than merely an energy transmission involved in such rites. I mention this for information sake only and will not discuss the matter beyond this.

 

Ritual Daoism, my preferred term for “Religious Daoism”, has its own equivalent of Deity Yoga and a wide variety of internal practices related to such “Internal Deities”. The origin of the teaching is in the Microcosm/Macrocosm relationship which is fundamental to both Daoism and Confucianism. While its origin in China is not completely clear it makes an early appearance in the work of Mencius in the Fourth Century BCE. It is also essential within the Western Traditions of Mysticism and Magic, where its origin is basically epistemology worked into a supporting ontology, metaphysics and cosmology. In other words it is not just new age woo woo, nor ancient Western or Chinese metaphorical jibber jabber.

[Wells]

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Edited July 1, 2016 by Wells

[Wells]

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Edited July 1, 2016 by Wells