Dzogchen Thogal: a Buddhist creative adaptation of a Daoist technique?

[Jax]

Khenpo Tsultrim Gyatso:

 

There can be a nihilistic view only if there is someone to hold it, but since there is no one to have any view, then there can be no nihilism. Furthermore, since the thought of nihilism neither arises nor abides nor ceases, there can be no nihilism in genuine reality. Genuine reality transcends the conceptual fabrications of realism and nihilism. It transcends karmic actions and results, and the absence of karmic actions and results as well. If karmic actions and their results do not exist in the abiding nature of reality, then what is the quality of their appearance?

 

Nagarjuna describes this in the chapter’s thirty-third verse:

 

'Mental afflictions, actions, and bodies, As well as actors and results, Are like cities of gandharvas, Like mirages, and like dreams.'

[Jax]

Contented Mind: The Life of Gen Lamrimpa

 

The Venerable Jampal Tenzin, Gen Lamrimpa, teaches that a contented mind is within our grasp, no matter how difficult the conditions of our lives. Genla, as he is affectionately called by his students, is one of the small number of Tibetan monks who spend most of their time in solitary meditation. He makes his home in a forest hut in Sikkim, where he lives simply and engages in spiritual practices.

 

Quotes from Gen Lamrimpa:

 

"The entire universe and everything in it is conceptually designated."

 

"We say that phenomena are established by the power of conceptual designation."

 

"Since phenomena do not exist inherently, they must exist conventionally. And since phenomena are established by the power of convention, they exist in a dependent fashion. Phenomena are dependent upon something else; in particular, they are dependent upon conceptual designation."

 

"There are a number of Buddhist scriptures that make this point. For example, there are sutras that say phenomena are established by conception. Also, Nagarjuna’s writings say that phenomena are established by thought, and Aryadeva makes the same point. All these Buddhist writings say that phenomena are established by convention, and what they mean here is that they are conceptually designated."

 

"This is an assertion unique to the Prasangika Madhyamaka view. All four Buddhist philosophical systems affirm that phenomena are dependent upon the collection of their preceding causes and conditions. But apart from the Prasangika system, the other Buddhist philosophical systems do not assert that phenomena are established by conception. Advocates of those other systems are not able to comprehend this point."

 

"Nagarjuna comments that total emptiness, or universal emptiness, remains upon the complete cessation of all appearances of conventional reality. In the absence of all conventional appearances, that emptiness can be called “the clear light of the fourth occasion.” The Buddhist scholar Sangye Yeshe states that this mind of clear light pervades all of space. This indicates the essential nature, or the mode of being, of the awareness (rigpa)."

 

"We can ask this question in relation to the “I.” How does the “I” exist? First of all, the “I” does not exist except as a conceptual or verbal designation. Apart from that, the “I” has no other mode of existence."

 

(Translated from Tibetan by B. Allan Wallace)

[Apech]

This thread is turning into another quotathon.

[Tibetan_Ice]

This thread is turning into another quotathon.

Nothing wrong with quotes so long as they are properly delineated and referenced. Quoting is not against the rules is it?

[Zhongyongdaoist]

And many of the past few quotes have been charming examples of Buddhist and especially Tibetan Buddhist belief, but as was said earlier:
 

What he is saying is that thogal is cross cultural and no one or group owns it. That is to say there is no copyright.

 

Yes, this is exactly the reason why I have followed Wells posts on "Rainbow/Light" body for sometime.

The question is, how much does Buddhist belief and practice contribute to achieving a "Light Body"? And further does one achieve such a "Light Body" because of or in spite of Buddhist belief and practices?

. . .

So if a "Light Body" is cultivated by Daoist practices such as outlined in this book, then how much is its success or failure dependent on either Buddhist belief or practice? Or are aspects of Buddhist belief and practice actually harmful to the process, which is at least implied by Wells continually noting, as he has, how many Buddhists there are and how few attain "Light Bodies".

These are the types of questions that concern Wells.

Wells, the OP, has not dissented from this summary, and from the beginning of his posts on Thogal has instead emphasized his interest in technique rather than dogma.

Also ralis has objected to certain aspects of the this quote:
 

No one has ever been liberated or born or reincarnated:

Diamond Sutra:

SECTION XXV. THE ILLUSION OF EGO

"Subhuti, what do you think? Let no one say the Tathagata cherishes the idea: I must liberate all living beings. Allow no such thought, Subhuti. Wherefore? Because in reality there are no living beings to be liberated by the Tathagata. If there were living beings for the Tathagata to liberate, He would partake in the idea of selfhood, personality entity, and separate individuality."

 
I take exception with this idea of non existence. Your narrative appears as an absolute rigidly defined ideology. A far more elegant way of defining this is that the phenomenal world as quantified by various languages, appears as an abstraction. Why? Primitive language skills that humans possess does not in any way describe the phenomenal world. E.g. the computer screen that I am watching at this time appears a process as well as all phenomena are and the term LED screen is a useful convention so that communication can take place.

To deny that no one has been liberated etc. misses the point entirely. Especially, the underlying dynamic process.

Given the density of this problem, I can write more clearly later when I can more clearly gather my thoughts. (Emphasis mine, ZYD)

I had not originally intended to return to Plato and Plotinus, but it now seems relevant to show that there are models of “spiritual reality” that in point of fact do justice to “. . . the underlying dynamic process.”

Let's go back to the beginning of the section from Plotinus' Enneads that I quoted earlier:
 

6. What, then, is the achieved Sage?
One whose Act is determined by the higher phase of the Soul. (Plotinus, Enneads, Trans. Stephen Mackenna and B. S. Page, Ennead 3, Book 4, Section 6; Our Tutelary Spirit, Internet Sacred Text Archive)

 
As I have noted before the usage of Soul, Mind and other such terms in Plotinus is technical and also well defined, and should not be confused with common usage.  The Soul in Plotinus, in so far as it relates to a particular person, is the totality of the human being, it is "eternal" and coterminous with all space and time, and includes both the incarnating ego and the manifestations of both "the One" and "Mind" in the Soul, these aspects of the Soul do not incarnate and specifically this “higher phase of the Soul" is what is referred to as the “Undescended Soul”, which the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy explains this way:
 

In fact, the highest part of the person, one's own intellect, the faculty in virtue of which persons can engage in non-discursive thinking, is eternally ‘undescended’. It is eternally doing what Intellect is doing. And the reason for holding this is, based on Plotinus' interpretation of Plato's Recollection Argument in Phaedo (72e-78b), that our ability to engage successfully in embodied cognition depends on our having access to Forms. But the only access to Forms is eternal access by cognitive identification with them. Otherwise, we would have only images or representations of the Forms. So, we must now be cognitively identical with them if we are going also to use these Forms as a way of classifying and judging things in the sensible world. 3. Human Psychology and Ethics, Emphasis mine, ZYD

 
As can be seen in the above the "undescended Soul" is identified with Mind which I have previously identified with "Buddha Nature.  This if further developed in this section:
 
4. Beauty

Which is extremely important bearing in mind the importance of Beauty, both in the theoretical aspects of Plato and Plotinus and in the techniques of harnessing Eros to the goal of freedom from rebirth.
 
An interesting overview of Plotinus' model of this Total Human Being is found in a review of Plotinus on Self by Pauliina Remes, a rising star in the field of late Platonic scholarship.  Her analysis appears generally sound and I can't help, but quote from this rather bold interpretation of the "embodied self" as a four dimensional whole:
 

Remes characterizes the embodied self as being 'one in continuity,' which is to say that it is a unity that consists of parts. More specifically, she argues that this embodied self is best understood as a kind of four-dimensional whole consisting of temporal parts. (Review of Plotinus on Self at Notre Dame Philosophical Reviews, Emphasis mine, ZYD)

 
A position which I have espoused for some time.
 
The above is a very condensed introduction to a very large subject.  I am providing it for information purposes and to point those interested to an alternate view.  I don't wish to engage in back and forth polemics on relative merits.

 

 

 

 

 

Edit: Corrected spelling.

Edited June 22, 2016 by Zhongyongdaoist

[Jax]

I take exception with this idea of non existence. Your narrative appears as an absolute rigidly defined ideology. A far more elegant way of defining this is that the phenomenal world as quantified by various languages, appears as an abstraction. Why? Primitive language skills that humans possess does not in any way describe the phenomenal world. E.g. the computer screen that I am watching at this time appears a process as well as all phenomena are and the term LED screen is a useful convention so that communication can take place.

 

To deny that no one has been liberated etc. misses the point entirely. Especially, the underlying dynamic process.

 

Given the density of this problem, I can write more clearly later when I can more clearly gather my thoughts.

[Jax]

It's not non-existence because weather is happening. There is "external" weather as experienced as the five senses. There is "internal" weather as mental and emotional weather events. Neither are caused by a "weatherman". Weather occurs without an individual causing any aspect of the weather, even the sense of being a causitive agent is just more impersonal weather.

[ralis]

It's not non-existence because weather is happening. There is "external" weather as experienced as the five senses. There is "internal" weather as mental and emotional weather events. Neither are caused by a "weatherman". Weather occurs without an individual causing any aspect of the weather, even the sense of being a causitive agent is just more impersonal weather.

 

That makes no sense whatsoever.

[ralis]

It's not non-existence because weather is happening. There is "external" weather as experienced as the five senses. There is "internal" weather as mental and emotional weather events. Neither are caused by a "weatherman". Weather occurs without an individual causing any aspect of the weather, even the sense of being a causitive agent is just more impersonal weather.

 

What I am pointing out is that using ancient language models does not describe a direct relationship with the underlying process of reality. Perhaps some day there may be a mathematical language which more accurately describes the underlying process.

[CelibacySeeker]

Jax is fake dzogchen teacher who have been exposed in dharmawheel and many other sites. He may have insight here and there which is natural for everybody who genuine seeker, but till you do not realize enlightenment, wisdom and light body you will be just parrot. 

Edited June 23, 2016 by CelibacySeeker

[ralis]

I have posted this before and the caption is not as it seems. I bet most miss the point entirely.

 

 

Edited June 24, 2016 by ralis

[Wells]

.

Edited July 1, 2016 by Wells

[CelibacySeeker]

Exposed by who? Non-fake Dzogchen teachers who still fail to produce rainbow body achievement in their students?

 

Jax is only intellectual which was exposed by other intellectuals. You can sit all day on facebook talking that there is no self, or nothing to do etc. but this is ignorance. It will not produce any fruit. Longchenpa clearly said that dzogchen is gradual for most of the people. Do you think reading about dzogchen will bring any results of achieving rainbow body? People still think that rushen is "practice" not a stage etc. If you want to achieve rainbow body or have a dzogchen master go to the real master who sacrificed everything in the caves and mountains, giving it all to the practice. Do not follow hoax like jax who sucks money off the spiritual-hobbyist who have only interested to masturbate with slogans and quotes on facebook all day. It's only acquiring concepts, ideas and another filters. 

[Jax]

The descriptions written by people about me are from people that don't know me, haven't read my books, haven't attended my retreats and are in the cult of conservative traditional lineages and who don't understand

Dzogchen. Not one word of criticism posted on Dharma Wheel against me is true. The one's who wrote those criticisms lied blatantly and knowingly. I first began studying Dzogchen in 1968, long before many of the critics were born!

 

Lineages:

 

Karma Kagyu empowerment with Sabchyu Rinpoche at Swayambhu, Nepal, 1978. Received all the Semde, Longde and most Mengagde transmissions including Yang Ti from Namkhai Norbu in the middle 80's. Thogal from the Yeshe Lama with a Nyingma Lama in 1986 who trained under Dudjum Rinpoche. Bon trekchod and thogal from the Menri Lopon. Nyingma and Kagyu traditions of gTumo from Kyabchab Rinpoche. Transmissions from Lama Wangdor and Dr. Trungawa, and Kalu Rinpoche. I also trained in Mahamudra in the Dalai Lama's lineage. I am a lineage holder in the Chinese Chan lineage of Hsu Yun, from when I was in China. There is much more also in the Japanese Zen Soto and Rinzai lineages. Namkhai Norbu gave me permission to teach Dzogchen Semde.

[Jax]

Actually my view is "anti-intellectual" and "anti-conceptual" in view. Only true Yogis understand Dzogchen, Ati yogis. The "direct pointings" are not unlike Patrul's sudden "phet" teaching. A powerful pointer can collapse the dualistic

mind and thereby open a glimpse of naked rigpa.

 

But also rigpa arose here during tantric tsa lung practice

of Anuyoga.

 

 

Tulku Urgyen explains what one does after this authentic glimpse:

 

Tulku Urgyen:

 

"The bottom line of being introduced to mind essence is to recognize that it is empty, cognizant, self-existing, suffused with knowing. That is the true training in recognizing the nature of mind.

 

The key point, after being introduced and recognizing, is to not do anything to the natural state. We do not have to try to improve upon this empty cognizance, or try to correct it in any particular way that requires effort on our part. In fact, we do not need to do anything to make our mind empty and cognizant. It does not require any job whatsoever. This nondoing itself is the training, and it is the opposite of our usual habit. Simply train in not correcting this empty cognizance, which is our natural state."

[C T]

Most Dzogchen enthusiasts are not interested in the training aspect of the path. This is the undoing of most who have been given a glimpse of the View. They dont realize that even gifted tulkus have to undergo years of study and familiarization, accumulating and growing the strength of both 'wings' of the path so to say. 

[CelibacySeeker]

Jax, I got nothing against you ad hominem, I always want the best for people who cultivate, but I hope people who you work with have results, but messing with people spiritual life which you touching the core of their being is very responsible job. 

[Jax]

First, realization of twofold emptiness is required. That is my first teaching step. It requires using shamatha as a basis for exposing this vipassana insight. I teach exactly that. Otherwise "rigpa" becomes reified into a super-self. Likewise the notions of cause and effect practices have to be seen as empty fiction. Otherwise methods will be reified as a means for a fictional self to attain something better for itself. I always teach Prasangika Madhyamaka as the first step before Dzogchen. Then we verify it through shamatha and vipassana exercises. Only then is the mind prepared for Dzogchen.

 

Mipham Rinpoche composed a brief text called The Beacon of Certainty, in which he states:

 

"In order to have perfect certainty in Dzogchen kadag, one must have perfect understanding of the view of the Madhyamaka Prasangika. Kadag, or original, primordial purity, is the view of Dzogchen, and in order to perfect that view, one must perfect one’s understanding of the Middle Way Prasangika view. What this implies is that the view of Dzogchen kadag and the view of the Prasangika school are the same."

[C T]

Jax, I got nothing against you ad hominem, I always want the best for people who cultivate, but I hope people who you work with have results, but messing with people spiritual life which you touching the core of their being is very responsible job. 

Perhaps its best for all concerned if we just concentrate on our own practice. I think Jax is capable of taking responsibility for his own actions, however they manifest. Same goes for us all. 

 

Not sure what ad hominem you are referring to. The only semblance of this seems to be from you. 

[Jax]

Two-fold Reification: the solidifying of the self belief and the solidifying of our impermanent world.

 

These are the instructions for entering the state of samsara and suffering:

 

First, even though your nature is like all-pervading, transparent, changeless, Aware Space; imagine yourself to be an object in space and time. Imagine you are the body. Feel the solidity of your new identity. Isn't it nice to have something you can really grasp?

 

Next imagine a story about who you are as an imaginary personal self that owns that body. Aren't you proud of your self and your new solid body? How grand to "exist"! You now can even start to collect memories to prove you really existed!

 

Its important at this early stage to make lots of labels and judgments about your new self so you don't lose track of all your unique and special characteristics that help you differentiate your self from all the others "out there". To know that you completed this stage with adequate proficiency, notice if you feel somewhat separate, independent, isolated and alone. If so, that's a good start! Suffering should start occurring anytime soon; sooner rather than later.

 

Now to add some icing to the cake: think of your self as the "captain of the ship"; the controller of the universe! You are the boss! You pull all the strings! You are in total control of all aspects of your life! You know better than anyone else what's real and what's not, and what's best for everyone else too! It's your completely free will that rules the day! Now you know who "you" are!

 

Next, take a look through the body's five senses. What do you see? The eyes only see colors. The ears notice vibrations. The tongue notices flavor sensations and temperature. The nose notices scents in the air. Through contact with your skin you also sense temperature, pressure, texture and pain. This is how a new born baby experiences the world of experience. To make sense of this sensory input, you need to start sorting out the different colored shapes, sounds, tastes, odors and tactile sensations. A good way to do this is to imagine names along with concepts that encapsulate what these stimulations mean to you. What's nice is that people will share their ready-made labels and meanings with you for free! Just accept their labels as-is like everyone else does. That's how to be a respectful citizen of samsara!

 

Now let's make clear what's yours and what's not. Label what's yours as "mine". Even though nothing is really yours, it's all just the unowned universe; its fun to pretend!

 

Now let's label yourself as a separate "me" and label outside of your skin "others" and other things. Now you have the labels "inner" and "outer" with no effort at all.

 

If we look carefully, we will see only processes occurring all around and within us, but no fixed things. That won't do at all! So let's make up nouns to describe these impermanent changes that make up our world.

 

Now "things" seem more solid and predictable, and therefore controllable. That just feels better, doesn't it? But we have to forget that these labels don't really represent the changing flux of experience, so dumbing-down is a great way to do this! Just ignore the temporary nature of everything! Pretend its all forever going to be just like you would love it to be.

 

Noticing that changing things, people and circumstances don't live up to their static labels, gives an overall sense of existential angst. The more we resist the intrinsic tendency of the labels to not hold true, the more frustration we feel.

 

Now we are really beginning to "feel" the effects of our hard won efforts at artificial labeling; as suffering is now authentically arising.

 

See? It's not so hard to develop suffering and delusion when we simply believe in our made-up labels and concepts.

 

Now when you are tired of the suffering produced through the two-fold reification of names, labels and concepts: just remember that you made them all from 100% imagination! If you really notice that fact clearly, all suffering will instantly cease. That reversal is called realizing "two-fold emptiness"; the clear seeing that ALL of our suffering is caused by our beliefs and convictions that we so tirelessly developed with great alacrity in our effort to reify our self and our world.

[Jax]

Two-fold Reification: the solidifying of the self belief and the solidifying of our impermanent world.

 

These are the instructions for entering the state of samsara and suffering:

 

First, even though your nature is like all-pervading, transparent, changeless, Aware Space; imagine yourself to be an object in space and time. Imagine you are the body. Feel the solidity of your new identity. Isn't it nice to have something you can really grasp?

 

Next imagine a story about who you are as an imaginary personal self that owns that body. Aren't you proud of your self and your new solid body? How grand to "exist"! You now can even start to collect memories to prove you really existed!

 

Its important at this early stage to make lots of labels and judgments about your new self so you don't lose track of all your unique and special characteristics that help you differentiate your self from all the others "out there". To know that you completed this stage with adequate proficiency, notice if you feel somewhat separate, independent, isolated and alone. If so, that's a good start! Suffering should start occurring anytime soon; sooner rather than later.

 

Now to add some icing to the cake: think of your self as the "captain of the ship"; the controller of the universe! You are the boss! You pull all the strings! You are in total control of all aspects of your life! You know better than anyone else what's real and what's not, and what's best for everyone else too! It's your completely free will that rules the day! Now you know who "you" are!

 

Next, take a look through the body's five senses. What do you see? The eyes only see colors. The ears notice vibrations. The tongue notices flavor sensations and temperature. The nose notices scents in the air. Through contact with your skin you also sense temperature, pressure, texture and pain. This is how a new born baby experiences the world of experience. To make sense of this sensory input, you need to start sorting out the different colored shapes, sounds, tastes, odors and tactile sensations. A good way to do this is to imagine names along with concepts that encapsulate what these stimulations mean to you. What's nice is that people will share their ready-made labels and meanings with you for free! Just accept their labels as-is like everyone else does. That's how to be a respectful citizen of samsara!

 

Now let's make clear what's yours and what's not. Label what's yours as "mine". Even though nothing is really yours, it's all just the unowned universe; its fun to pretend!

 

Now let's label yourself as a separate "me" and label outside of your skin "others" and other things. Now you have the labels "inner" and "outer" with no effort at all.

 

If we look carefully, we will see only processes occurring all around and within us, but no fixed things. That won't do at all! So let's make up nouns to describe these impermanent changes that make up our world.

 

Now "things" seem more solid and predictable, and therefore controllable. That just feels better, doesn't it? But we have to forget that these labels don't really represent the changing flux of experience, so dumbing-down is a great way to do this! Just ignore the temporary nature of everything! Pretend its all forever going to be just like you would love it to be.

 

Noticing that changing things, people and circumstances don't live up to their static labels, gives an overall sense of existential angst. The more we resist the intrinsic tendency of the labels to not hold true, the more frustration we feel.

 

Now we are really beginning to "feel" the effects of our hard won efforts at artificial labeling; as suffering is now authentically arising.

 

See? It's not so hard to develop suffering and delusion when we simply believe in our made-up labels and concepts.

 

Now when you are tired of the suffering produced through the two-fold reification of names, labels and concepts: just remember that you made them all from 100% imagination! If you really notice that fact clearly, all suffering will instantly cease. That reversal is called realizing "two-fold emptiness"; the clear seeing that ALL of our suffering is caused by our beliefs and convictions that we so tirelessly developed with great alacrity in our effort to reify our self and our world.

[Jax]

From Sri Lankan Master Niyananda:

 

"If, for instance, a vortex in the ocean comes to cease, can one ask where the vortex has gone? It will be like asking where the extinguished fire has gone. One might say that the vortex has 'joined' the ocean. But that, too, would not be a proper statement to make. From the very outset what in fact was there was the great ocean, so one cannot say that the vortex has gone somewhere, nor can one say that it is not gone. It is also incorrect to say that it has joined the ocean. A cessation of a vortex gives rise to such a problematic situation. So is this state called kevalī. What, in short, does it amount to? The vortex has now become the great ocean itself. That is the significance of the comparison of the emancipated one to the great ocean.

The commentators do not seem to have paid sufficient attention to the implications of this simile. But when one thinks of the relation between the vortex and the ocean, it is as if the arahant has become one with the ocean. But this is only a turn of speech.

In reality, the vortex is merely a certain pervert state of the ocean itself. That perversion is now no more. It has ceased. It is because of that perversion that there was a manifestation of suffering. The cessation of suffering could therefore be compared to the cessation of the vortex, leaving only the great ocean as it is.

Only so long as there is a whirling vortex can we point out a 'here' and a 'there'. In the vast ocean, boundless as it is, where there is a vortex, or an eddy, we can point it out with a 'here' or a 'there'. Even so, in the case of the saṃsāric individual, as long as the whirling round is going on in the form of the vortex, there is a possibility of designation or appellation as 'so-and-so'. But once the vortex has ceased, there is actually nothing to identify with, for purposes of designation. The most one can say about it, is to refer to it as the place where a vortex has ceased.

Such is the case with the Tathāgata too. Freedom from the duality is for him release from the vortex itself. We have explained on a previous occasion how a vortex comes to be.[710] A current of water, trying to go against the mainstream, when its attempt is foiled, in clashing with the mainstream, gets thrown off and pushed back, but turns round to go whirling and whirling as a whirlpool. This is not the norm. This is something abnormal. Here is a perversion resulting from an attempt to do the impossible. This is how a thing called 'a vortex' comes to be."

 

"Yā c' eva kho pana ajjhattikā paṭhavidhātu, yā ca bāhirā paṭhavidhātu, paṭhavidhātur ev' esā. Taṃ n' etaṃ mama, n' eso 'haṃ asmi, na meso attā 'ti evam etaṃ yathābhūtaṃ sammappaññāya daṭṭhabbaṃ.[716]

"Now whatever earth element that is internal, and whatever earth element that is external, both are simply earth element. That should be seen as it is with right wisdom thus: 'this is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.'"

The implication is that this so-called individual, or person, is in fact a vortex, formed out of the same kind of primary elements that obtain outside of it. So then, the whole idea of an individual or a person is a mere perversion. The notion of individuality in saṃsāric beings is comparable to the apparent individuality of a vortex. It is only a pretence. That is why it is called asmimāna, the "conceit 'am'". In truth and fact, it is only a conceit."

[Apech]

The descriptions written by people about me are from people that don't know me, haven't read my books, haven't attended my retreats and are in the cult of conservative traditional lineages and who don't understand

Dzogchen. Not one word of criticism posted on Dharma Wheel against me is true. The one's who wrote those criticisms lied blatantly and knowingly. I first began studying Dzogchen in 1968, long before many of the critics were born!

 

Lineages:

 

Karma Kagyu empowerment with Sabchyu Rinpoche at Swayambhu, Nepal, 1978. Received all the Semde, Longde and most Mengagde transmissions including Yang Ti from Namkhai Norbu in the middle 80's. Thogal from the Yeshe Lama with a Nyingma Lama in 1986 who trained under Dudjum Rinpoche. Bon trekchod and thogal from the Menri Lopon. Nyingma and Kagyu traditions of gTumo from Kyabchab Rinpoche. Transmissions from Lama Wangdor and Dr. Trungawa, and Kalu Rinpoche. I also trained in Mahamudra in the Dalai Lama's lineage. I am a lineage holder in the Chinese Chan lineage of Hsu Yun, from when I was in China. There is much more also in the Japanese Zen Soto and Rinzai lineages. Namkhai Norbu gave me permission to teach Dzogchen Semde.

 

Do you teach within his organisation?  And could you explain a little more what Dzogchen Semde actually is, thanks.

Edited June 24, 2016 by Apech

[CelibacySeeker]

Jax, this is developing prajna, if you experience what you speak off you are buddha beyond life and death in your experience they should be no suffering, no life, no death etc. 

[Jax]

Some thoughts on personal identity:

 

Its interesting to compare our dream state subjective identity with our waking state subjective identity.

 

In our dreams at night we may have some task or goal we are trying accomplish. In the dream it feels and seems like our identity has some latitude of autonomy and free will to act. Yet we know that each thought, intention, sensation, perception and characteristic of identity, is programmed 100% by the subconscious. There is no pre-existing entity there at all. It's all creative fiction, including the characters and scenery.

 

Let's say we see a church bell swing and then hear the dong sound in our dream. We now know the "bell" never made the sound we heard. No sound entered our ears. The mind just created the dong sound from no mechanical cause that generated the sound. All the thoughts, intentions and sense of identity are created in the same way because there is no self-entity there besides the one the mind generated. This completely fictional nature of this dream self is recognized upon awakening. The strong feeling-sense of "me-ness" as an autonomous person or entity was part of the subconscious projection. It was just subjective scenery like the church and swinging bell were objective scenery. No church, no bell, no "me" ever actually existed outside of the mind's projection.

 

Sometimes we notice in the dream that we are "dreaming" and then we wake up. We sense our waking self suddenly appeared in the dream and realized "Oh, this is a dream!" and we then wake up. But instead consider the subconscious created a "me" self that "noticed it was dreaming" as its creative content. It's not that the "real" waking self appeared in the dream. But yet there seems to be a lingering sense of the continuity of this self when afterwards we reflect upon this dream in which the dream character realized it was dreaming.

 

It's like my "real self" was the real one in the dream all along and somehow managed to notice its dreaming situation and woke up.

 

What is not noticed is something really profound: the "waking real self" is also just another subconscious projection. All of its personality characteristics, sense of personal identity, thoughts and intentions are programmed into and as the "me" self-entity by the subconscious, and that there is no "real me" self there at all!

 

The self-identity as a "me" is simply a subconscious projection created out of previous conditioning, memories and imagination. Especially confusing is the particular subconscious element or content that gives the convincing certainty of being a valid and "real" me. That "self-certainty" is just part of the subconscious content. Its a necessary ingredient to making the self illusion so enduring. The sense of "autonomy" is also a projected mental characteristic.

 

So a "seeker" is not an autonomous identity or person that is choosing to seek, but is actually a projection of subconscious "seeking" characteristics.

 

Likewise there is not a real "me" or self that experiences suffering, but rather the subconscious is projecting a "suffering me" character. The "me" and the suffering are one piece. This is like when in our night dream when we experience fear. It's not that there is a "me" that has a separate emotion of fear occur to it, but rather at that moment the subconscious is projecting a "fearful me" as one piece.

 

The greatest and most important illusion is that there is an actual continuing "me" self that exists over time having various experiences occurring to "it". That "me" self is 100% subconscious fabrication with no real "me" self there at all.

 

When we were born there was no "me" sense at all. It takes almost two years before the subconscious really gets the "me" fabrication up and running in consciousness.

 

What's really interesting is that the subconscious can suddenly cease creating a "me" identity in consciousness. Then we have conscious awareness without a self-identity story being fabricated.

 

This moment is described as "liberation". Its a funny kind of liberation because in this liberation no one, no self and no "me" was liberated. It just ceased to occur.

 

Where did "I" go in such a case?"one might ask. I would suggest "To the same place a whirl pool goes when its ceases whirling... and that's not to say that the location and substance of the whirlpool; the ocean, ceased as well.

 

In this case the "ocean" is the unestablished, unfabricated awake state of nirvana.