Dzogchen Thogal: a Buddhist creative adaptation of a Daoist technique?

[Apech]

Welcome back Jax.

 

What you are saying about the Daoist influence on Dzogchen practices rings a lot of intuitive bells with me.  I have long thought that while there is considerable emphasis on the Buddhist influence in China (from both India and later Tibet) - not much is said about the Chinese (particularly Daoist) influence on Buddhism and its practices.  I have always seen this in a positive light - and I am sure 'rip-off' is not quite right.  As I see the dialogue between practitioners of different systems as more of a source of renewal and cross-fertilisation than theft.

[ralis]

Welcome back Jax.

 

What you are saying about the Daoist influence on Dzogchen practices rings a lot of intuitive bells with me.  I have long thought that while there is considerable emphasis on the Buddhist influence in China (from both India and later Tibet) - not much is said about the Chinese (particularly Daoist) influence on Buddhism and its practices.  I have always seen this in a positive light - and I am sure 'rip-off' is not quite right.  As I see the dialogue between practitioners of different systems as more of a source of renewal and cross-fertilisation than theft.

 

For anyone wanting to conduct research, Eliade's classic work on Shamanism is an excellent reference. Also, Idries Shah's book 'Oriental Magic' has a historical flow chart chart which shows the influence of Siberian Shamanism on all spiritual belief systems. I will copy and post that chart first chance.

 

https://www.amazon.com/Shamanism-Archaic-Techniques-Ecstasy-Bollingen/dp/0691119422?ie=UTF8&qid=1466170023&ref_=la_B000AP85TS_1_2&s=books&sr=1-2

 

https://www.amazon.com/Oriental-Magic-Idries-Shah/dp/1784790451/ref=sr_1_12?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1466170544&sr=1-12&keywords=Idries+Shah

[RigdzinTrinley]

Welcome back Jax.

 

What you are saying about the Daoist influence on Dzogchen practices rings a lot of intuitive bells with me. I have long thought that while there is considerable emphasis on the Buddhist influence in China (from both India and later Tibet) - not much is said about the Chinese (particularly Daoist) influence on Buddhism and its practices. I have always seen this in a positive light - and I am sure 'rip-off' is not quite right. As I see the dialogue between practitioners of different systems as more of a source of renewal and cross-fertilisation than theft.

I agree with that obervation, but have zero clue about daoism, so I don't dare make any statements here. As you know I am currently still investigating the tantric lineages here in India and Nepal, for sure the tantric phenomenon is not limited to one stream or one lineage transmission

 

looks like a lot of the tsa lung thigle teachigns comes from the Nath-Siddhas (many of them are part of famous list of 84 "buddhist" mahasiddhas)

 

I met Bettine Bäumer once and she told me her research showed that tantra was at the beginning neither hindu nor buddhist (she is a student of kashmiri shivaism btw). the more I look into it and the more a talk with fellow practicioners of tantra in different lineages, the more it makes sense what she said.

 

Also recently I could finally meet Ramgiri, a direct disciple of Neem Karoli Baba, and we had some very enlightening discussion - he said that Maharaji was made a hindu saint because that was the social strata in which he choose to manifest, being a siddha these kinds of labels don't stick

 

He also said that Ramana Maharshi thought the way he did because the first books that he read after his awakening experiience (and years of subsequent practice) was text on advaita vedanta.

 

I myself was at the ashram for some weeks doing practice, and visiting annamalai temple (the fire linga - navel/fire chackra of south india) I can't help but say there is tantric juju happening there as well

 

might be my "sunglasses" that I am wearing but that's another story

 

looking foreward to get some more imput

Edited June 17, 2016 by RigdzinTrinley

[ralis]

I agree with that obervation, but have zero clue about daoism, so I don't dare make any statements here. As you know I am currently still investigating the tantric lineages here in India and Nepal, for sure the tantric phenomenon is not limited to one stream or one lineage transmission

 

looks like a lot of the tsa lung thigle teachigns comes from the Nath-Siddhas (many of them are part of famous list of 84 "buddhist" mahasiddhas)

 

I met Bettine Bäumer once and she told me her research showed that tantra was at the beginning neither hindu nor buddhist (she is a student of kashmiri shivaism btw). the more I look into it and the more a talk with fellow practicioners of tantra in different lineages, the more it makes sense what she said.

 

Also recently I could finally meet Ramgiri, a direct disciple of Neem Karoli Baba, and we had some very enlightening discussion - he said that Maharaji was made a hindu saint because that was the social strata in which he choose to manifest, being a siddha these kinds of labels don't stick

 

He also said that Ramana Maharshi thought the way he did because the first books that he read after his awakening experiience (and years of subsequent practice) was text on advaita vedanta. Being at the ashram for some weeks doing practice, and visiting annamalai temple (the fire linga - navel/fire chackra of south india) I can't help but say there is tantric juju happening there as well

 

might be my "sunglasses" that I am wearing but that's another story

 

looking foreward to get some more imput

 

Terms such as Taoism, Buddhism are just cultural reference points and if one can get beyond the terms to a broader cross cultural view, I believe that can solve many problems/confusion. The two books in my last post are an excellent place to start.

[Jax]

I am drilling down on this with Prof. David Germano. Today he told me he is also looking at Mao Shan origins for Nying Thig and thogal also! Interesting coincidence!

 

I wrote him back today:

Hi David!

 

I always sensed that the Semde and Nyingthig came from different traditions. Semde may be rooted in non-gradual "sudden" Ati-Marga of the early Pashupata Shaivists that ended up in Kashmir and may be the origin for both Semde and Trika.

 

The Nyingthig has so many unique elements that have no exact counter-parts in Vajrayana or Tantra or Kashmiri Shaivism. I think we are on the right track with the Mao Shan traditions.

 

I shared this also with John Reynolds and Erik Pema Kusang. I can't find an email for Sam Van Shaik, but I have discussed some related thogal topics in the past. I think he originally suggested I contact you regarding Nying Thig origins. What do you know so far regarding Nyingthig origins and development? Kawa Paltseg perhaps? Or?

 

"By the eleventh century, both Bonpos and Buddhists were presenting texts they claimed to have unearthed from the place where those texts had been hidden in the past. Among the earliest Buddhist materials so characterized were the esoteric Nyingtig, or "Heart Sphere", teachings, including the seventeen Atiyoga tantras, which were associated with Vimalamitra, an Indian Great Perfection master invited to Tibet, according to some accounts, by Trisong Detsen in the eighth century. Vimalamitra's Tibetan student, Nyangban Tingzin Zangpo, was said to have concealed these teachings after the master went to China. The discoverer was Neten Dangma Lhungyal (eleventh century), who proceeded to transmit these teachings to Chetsun Senge Wangchuk, one of the first accomplished Tibetan Buddhist yogins, and to others."

 

What do we know about Neten Dangma Lhungyal?

 

Some have said the 17 Tantras etc. appear to be in their original language, Tibetan and are not translations. (?)

 

I have been looking at several early Mao Shan and related translations, but most of the quotes come from Isabelle Robinet:

Taoist Meditation: The Mao-Shan Tradition of Great Purity (Suny Series, Toward a Comparative Philosophy of Religions)

 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0791413608/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?qid=1466169337&sr=8-1π=AC_SX236_SY340_QL65&keywords=taoism+mao+shan

 

I look forward to hearing your thoughts!

 

Many Tashi Delegs!

Jackson

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone

 

On 17 Jun 2016, at 06:18, Germano, David F. wrote:

 

Dear Jackson hi! Yes I have been reading the mao-shan materials s well what books are you drawing these from? david

 

From: Jackson Peterson <[email protected]>

Date: Wednesday, June 15, 2016 at 8:19 AM

To: David Germano >

Subject: Origins of Thogal

 

Hi David!

 

Jackson Peterson here. I managed to figure out where Vimalamitra (or whoever) got the ideas and practices for thogal. Please have a read and let me know your thoughts!

 

 

Thogal and Nying Thig

 

I am now convinced that Vimilamitra learned thogal in China from Taoist masters related to the "Mao-Shan" Taoist lineage. The quotes below from their ancient texts should prove this, besides we know Vimalamitra studied with Shri Singha for twenty years near Wutai Shan in Eastern China, the exact location of many "Mao-Shan" practitioners. This tradition traces itself back to 100 b.c., but became prominent around 300 a.d.

 

Here are a few absolutely amazing quotes regarding thogal thigles that they contemplate:

 

"The precious cauldron (yu ting) is a cavity in the center of the brain... It's left and right sides are linked with the pupils of the eyes by two channels; and it is also connected with the heart. Hence it is said that essential nature is in the heart which manifests through the two eyes."

 

"These deities are not born from embryos like human beings, but are "born from emptiness through

transformation" in the celestial spheres. By means of transformation they become breaths, little children, or

fully dressed ladies accompanied by maid-servants. The colored breaths condense and metamorphose. Forming

and reforming, these fluctuating visions generate themselves in interconnected chains. In this regard, the terms

hun-hua or he-hua ("transform by uniting") constantly appear. These deities change and also move about. They constantly frolic, spinning around and moving, throughout the

heavens. ....Made from light..."

 

"These expressions, randomly chosen from the texts, are often only a few words in length but imply the presence of specific preliminary exercises. The Chen-kao mentions several of these for example, the exercise of crossing one's hands over the eyebrows to see the sun..."

 

Sunlight surrounds his body and he rises up to the Palace of Universal Yang."

In the Yü-i chieh-lin ching, this experience is described in the following way:

[The adept] sees in the sun five colors flowing into a halo which reaches his whole body and descends

down to his feet. Through concentration, he then makes the five breaths rise up to the top of his skull.

Thereupon all of the five colors of the floating halo formed from sunlight penetrate into his mouth. Then

a Purple Breath as large as the pupil of the eye spontaneously appears inside this floating cloud made from sunlight. This breath is made up of ten layers and blazes in the middle of the five-colored light. ...

 

"This exercise concludes with the general inflammation of the whole person of the visionary carried to the point of incandescence. As the text says: "[The adept] must make sure that the sun's light sets his whole self ablaze so that, inside, it [the light] spreads up to his intestines and stomach and that, both inside and outside, he feels as if

everything is illuminated."

Whoever regularly devotes himself to these practices will acquire a "vermillion face," his whole body will be

"luminous and shining" or will "radiate an extraordinary light," "the nape of his neck will manifest a rounded

brilliance," and he will "illuminate the eight directions.'' Living as long as the sun and moon, he is transported

to the stars.In a word, the visionary becomes "light" ...

 

"As the text cited above confirms, Lao-tzu is in this way able "to make himself bright or dark, either to disappear or to be present." According to a hallowed saying, one of the powers commonly promised to the assiduous adept is the ability "when seated, to be present and when standing, to disappear." Thus the faculty of becoming invisible is constantly associated with the power of appearing at will, of extending one's sight, and of "releasing the bridle."

 

"The Shen-chou ching's"Method for Exiting from Being and Entering into Non-Being,Liberating the Body and Escaping by Transformation into Fluid Light" gives the adept, after he has practiced for seven years, the power "to transform his body into seventy-two lights (which alludes to Lao-tzu's seventy-two supernatural marks)'' and "to disappear and appear, to be visible or hidden."

 

From Vimalamitra's biography:

 

"Vimalamitra took heed of Vajrasattva’s advice, hastily returned home to grab his alms bowl and began the journey to China, where he met Śrī Siṃha and subsequently studied the Nyingtik for twenty years.

 

"Vimalamitra reportedly concealed four Nyingtik texts in the caves of Samye Chimpu (bsam yas 'chim phu). After thirteen years in Tibet, he returned to Wutai Shan (ri bo rtse lnga) in China and achieved the rainbow body."

 

I found another Chinese text that I first read 38 years ago. It's "The Secrets of Cultivation of Essential Nature and Eternal Life", written by the Taoist master Chao Pi Ch’en (born 1860).

 

It's an amazing text that describes the entire process for attaining the "body of light", where one's physical body completely dissolves during life, not at death. It's very similar to the "The Secret of the Golden Flower", but with much more detail and with emphasis on out of body travel and dissolution of the physical body:

 

"THE PRECIOUS CAULDRON (yu ting) is a cavity in the centre of the brain (between and behind the eyes) and is the seat of (essential) nature, that is the original cavity of spirit (yuan shen shih or the ancestral cavity, tsu ch’iao); its left and right sides are linked with the pupils of the eyes by two (psychic) channels; and it is also connected with the heart. Hence it is said that essential nature is (in) the heart which manifests through the two eyes."

 

 

"...this is the (tsu ch’iao) cavity in the centre of the brain which is linked with the two eyes and also with the heart. If in spite of this connection the precious light does not manifest at the early stage of practice, it is because the centre of (essential) nature (center of brain) is still closed."

 

"In order to open this centre of (essential) nature the practiser should place an oil lamp in front of him and concentrate his eyes on its flame..."

 

"When the golden light of this immortal seed manifests for the first time before his eyes, the practiser should immediately provide himself with the four necessities such as the required implements, provisions, companions and a quiet place for advanced training. If he is young and has parents and children to look after, he cannot retire to the mountain to train for the breakthrough and final leap over the worldly."

 

He calls the first stage "break through" and the second stage "leap over" with those words translated directly from the Chinese. He also says: "It leads to the complete extinction of all phenomena."

 

"The training should continue no matter how long it takes until the four elements (that make the body) scatter, and space pulverises leaving no traces behind; this is the golden immortal stage of the indestructible diamond-body. This is the ultimate achievement of the training which now comes to an end".

 

Keep in mind that this lineage of teaching is continuous from at least 100 b.c. As attested from dated Taoist texts. The major Mao-Shan texts were written and practiced between 300-400 a.d. It's definitely not a recent reworking of Dzogchen thogal texts. Thogal itself isn't mentioned until after 1000 a.d. in Dzogchen texts. It's completely absent as a technology in original earliest Dzogchen or Nubs Sangye Yeshe would have mentioned it at around 890 a.d. Even the term "break through" didn't exist in earliest Dzogchen texts.

 

Taoists teach at the center of the brain, at the pineal gland, the 'pure awareness' resides. It's called Shen or spirit. It is identical to rigpa as the "son-light" in Dzogchen and has the exact location as the Yangti lamp called the "thigle tongpa dronma". It is also the location in Nying Thig that Longchenpa calls the location of the "nature of mind" as Sem Nyid. As above, they mention the "nature" in the heart radiates up through a channel passing through the center of the brain there splitting into two branches that end at the pupils, through which the various inner "lights" shine out in front of the practitioner.

 

The text further mentions that the eyes are key and that the Shen (rigpa) resides in the eyes. It says the body is completely negative yin energy and only the eyes are the positive yang energy. It says by fully activating the yang of the eyes that the pure yang energy will transform the entire body into pure yang; at which point it dissolves into pure yang light as an immortal

Light body.

 

No doubt, Vimalamitra ripped off Taoist Light practices and made them part of Buddhist Dzogchen. The 17 Tantras of Mangagde showcase this new hybrid technology. We also know the 17 Tantras post-date Semde and Longde.

 

It also seems Longde is even closer to the Taoist practices as not all Taoist systems use sunlight, as Longde doesn't use thogal.

 

Wutai Shan was also the home of many Mao-Shan masters.

 

Isn't this exactly the Kati channel in Thogal?

 

"THE PRECIOUS CAULDRON (yu ting) is a cavity in the centre of the brain (between and behind the eyes) and is the seat of (essential) nature, that is the original cavity of spirit (yuan shen shih or the ancestral cavity, tsu ch’iao); its left and right sides are linked with the pupils of the eyes by two (psychic) channels; and it is also connected with the heart. Hence it is said that essential nature is (in) the heart which manifests through the two eyes."

 

I wondered where the thogal postures came from? Where did Vimilamitra learn them? Here is the final proof that thogal was 100% taken from Taoist practice. The Lion Posture and the Rishi Posture from Taoist yoga, exactly as taught in thogal! They even call it the "lion posture".

 

 

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Sent from my iPhone

[Wells]

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Edited July 1, 2016 by Wells

[Wells]

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Edited July 1, 2016 by Wells

[Wells]

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[Wells]

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Edited July 1, 2016 by Wells

[Jax]

Interesting!

 

[Jax]

Jax,

I don't know if you aware of the following book, it might be helpful for your research:

"Qi Gong for Total Wellness: Increase Your Energy, Vitality, and Longevity with the Ancient 9 Palaces System from the White Cloud Monastery" by Baolin Wu

https://www.amazon.com/Gong-Total-Wellness-Longevity-Monastery/dp/0312262337/

 

The taoist "9 palaces" system is about absorbing chi from the sun, the master of the author seemingly achieved rainbow body through applying its techniques:

http://www.drbaolinwu.com/9palaces.htm

Excellent! Thanks!

[Jax]

I'll look it up and change the quote in the initial post of the thread accordingly.

EDIT: DONE!

 

 

 

from Taoist Yoga - Alchemy and Immortality

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1264686140227808/permalink/1265202596842829/

 

Jax, do you think that "seeing the void as not empty" is equivalent with experiencing (seeing) clear light thogal visions while gazing at the sky?

No, I don't. It's different. But we need not concentrate on visions but the state of impersonal rigpa that arises.

[Wells]

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Edited July 1, 2016 by Wells

[Wells]

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Edited July 1, 2016 by Wells

[Wells]

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Edited July 1, 2016 by Wells

[Zhongyongdaoist]

Jax, do you think that "seeing the void as not empty" is equivalent with experiencing (seeing) clear light thogal visions while gazing at the sky?

No, I don't. It's different. But we need not concentrate on visions but the state of impersonal rigpa that arises.

From Taoist Yoga; Alchemy and Immortality, Lu K'uan Yü, Samuel Weiser 1970, (Emphasis mine, ZYD)

 

Voidness: Voidness that is relative and empty does not radiate whereas voidness that is absolute and is not empty is spiritual light which is spirit-vitality that springs from the middle tan t'ian in the solar plexus. (Glossary, p.168)

 

Answer   Seeing the void as not empty is right and seeing the void as empty is wrong, for failure to return to the (tsu ch'iao) centre (which is not empty) prevents the light of vitality from manifesting. Under the heart and above the genital organ is an empty space where spiritual vitality manifests to form a cavity. When spirit and vitality return to this cavity, spiritual vitality will soar up to form a circle (of light) which is not void. Voidness which does not radiate is relative but voidness which radiates is absolute. Absolute voidness is not empty like relative voidness. Voidness that is not empty is spiritual light which is spirit-vitality that springs from the yellow hail centre (huang ting or middle tan t'ien, in the solar plexus). (Chapter One, p.3)

 

Therefore, this original cavity of spirit should be concentrated on whether the practiser walks, stands, sits or reclines. And all of a sudden the heart becomes pure and the spirits high causing vitality to be overwhelming and the body robust. In this utter stillness devoid of thoughts and feelings the practiser will awaken fully to the void that is not empty and to his (essential) nature. When this stage is reached his vitality develops further, his knowledge increases and his spiritual disposition becomes all-pervading. Unexpectedly a spark of real positive (principle) appears revealing the mysterious gate (hsuan kuan). (Chapter One, p.6-7)

 

This seems to indicate that absolute void, which is not empty occurs "within" the body centers.  I put within in parenthesis because within and without are not exactly the same at this point as they are to ordinary consciousness, but it does not seem that they are the thogal visions seen while gazing at the sky.

 

spiritual vitality will soar up to form a circle (of light) which is not void: Just as a note, it was references to early Thogal visions involving a "circle of light" in Wells early posts on Thogal, as well as the dissolution of the body that first interested me in Thogal and its possible connection with Taoist Yoga.  Wells (under his previous name Zoom) has erased almost all of these posts, so I can't be sure exactly where I saw this in his early posts on Thogal.

 

 

 

 

[Wells]

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Edited July 1, 2016 by Wells

[doc benway]

For anyone wanting to conduct research, Eliade's classic work on Shamanism is an excellent reference. Also, Idries Shah's book 'Oriental Magic' has a historical flow chart chart which shows the influence of Siberian Shamanism on all spiritual belief systems. I will copy and post that chart first chance.

 

https://www.amazon.com/Shamanism-Archaic-Techniques-Ecstasy-Bollingen/dp/0691119422?ie=UTF8&qid=1466170023&ref_=la_B000AP85TS_1_2&s=books&sr=1-2

 

https://www.amazon.com/Oriental-Magic-Idries-Shah/dp/1784790451/ref=sr_1_12?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1466170544&sr=1-12&keywords=Idries+Shah

 

Here is another good work: https://www.amazon.com/Bo-Bon-Shamanic-Traditions-Teachings/dp/9937506115

[Tibetan_Ice]

According to dzogchen theory, the thogal visions actually take place in the heart and are projected over the kati channel from the heart through the eyes into the sky, which acts like a projection screen.

 

So possibly sunlight is absorbed through the eyes over the kati into the heart,

the resulting visions take then place in the heart,

but are projected outwards over the kati into the sky.

So the kati is possibly some kind of a two-way street

and has the ability to absorb external light inwards and to project internal visions outwards.

That is not quite right.

It has nothing to do with light activating anything. It has to do with rigpa and ultimate bodhicitta.

What is projected outwards are not only visions, but YOU, your channels, your body, the earth, this plane, other planes, all existences. All surrounded by white light...

[Creation]

Ah, excellent! I am very happy to see these connections being explored. 

 

OK, a couple of things. 

 

On the Buddhist side, I think it is important to remember is that all the original practitioners of Longde and Menngagde were working in the milieu of the early Nyingma trinity of Mahayoga, Anuyoga, and Semde.   If they brought in other practices from other traditions, they used them in the context of doing what the above trinity purports to do.  First of all, being Buddhist, they place primary importance on realizing the nature of mind.  Second, they are working in the Tantric paradigm of using yogas of drops and channels and working with intermediate states like dying and dreaming.  Even if Thogal methods turn out to be borrowed from Taoism, they were totally recontextualized by the Buddhist tantric milleu.  Just like if it turns out that Buddhists borrowed deity yoga and/or tummo from a non-Buddhist source, their particular way of using it and contextualizing it's use is still fundamentally Buddhist.  Some are inclined to say if they are doing the same technique, how they contextualize it is just dogmatic dross, but I think this a rash judgement. 

 

Also, let's not forget that many Mahasiddhas were said to to achieve rainbow body practicing Yogini Tantras, so it's not like within the world of Buddhism only Longde and Menngagde practitioners were attaining rainbow body. 

 

On the Taoist side, first of all I was going to mention Baolin Wu but Wells beat me to it.  In his Nine Palaces book he gives an eyewitness account of his (Taoist!) master attaining not just rainbow body, but rainbow body of great transference. 

 

Second, I want to suggest the possibility that there are fundamentally different paradigms of internal alchemy in the history of Taoism, that maybe even lead to different kinds of light body attainment.  The paradigm that is dominant from, say, the 12th century onward comes from the Zhong-Lu lineage of alchemy, and talks about converting jing to qi to shen to wu.  I do not get the impression that this type of alchemy is particularly similar to Dzogchen, which explains why not too many people have looked into the connection before.  But if indeed earlier methods, such as Mao Shan methods, are fundamentally different, not using this linear progression from jing to wu, that is a better place to look. 

 

I think things like seeing light in the upper dan tian are simply too universal to be indicative of a fundamental similarity, sort of like how I frown on the idea some people have that any time energy moving up the spine is mentioned it is "kundalini".  I don't even think that rainbow body is the same as the diamond body mentioned in Luk's "Taoist Yoga".  The more different accounts of practices and meditative experiences one is familiar with, one can say "practice x is more similar to practice y than practice z is", and get a sense of the geography of the terrain.

 

Another point is There is also a tradition of treasure revaluation in Taoism, with stories of magical scrolls things like alchemical instructions dropping from the sky, etc.  I read something on google books years ago showing similar Tibetan and Chinese accounts, but I can't find it now. 
 

It probably goes without saying, but I'll say it anyway, to remind myself if nothing else.  It's far more important that one actually practices and attains than knows the scholarly details.

Edited June 18, 2016 by Creation

[Jax]

If you want to know and "practice" original Dzogchen as it was meant to be presented, please purchase all of Chris's books as displayed on his Amazon page. These are all new first time translations of Dzogchen's most profound and earliest teachings.

 

What you will read is quite shocking and revelatory as the Dzogchen view is brought into clear focus. It cuts to shreds any notion of a "gradual path" or need for practice and effort.

 

Chris has captured the essence in his translations of what Dzogchen was intended to convey; immediate enlightenment and release!

 

May all beings prosper!

 

http://www.amazon.com/Christopher-Wilkinson/e/B00KINMI22

[gatito]

If you want to know and "practice" original Dzogchen as it was meant to be presented, please purchase all of Chris's books as displayed on his Amazon page. These are all new first time translations of Dzogchen's most profound and earliest teachings.

 

What you will read is quite shocking and revelatory as the Dzogchen view is brought into clear focus. It cuts to shreds any notion of a "gradual path" or need for practice and effort.

 

Chris has captured the essence in his translations of what Dzogchen was intended to convey; immediate enlightenment and release!

 

May all beings prosper!

 

http://www.amazon.com/Christopher-Wilkinson/e/B00KINMI22

 

Thanks for this and for starting the Non-Gradual Dzogchen thread Jax!

 

You'd probably find it find it useful to obtain Owner Permissions, so that you can moderate it yourself...

Edited June 18, 2016 by gatito

[ralis]

 

So the kati is possibly some kind of a two-way street

and has the ability to absorb external light inwards and to project internal visions outwards.

 

That appears to be my experience.

[ralis]

From Taoist Yoga; Alchemy and Immortality, Lu K'uan Yü, Samuel Weiser 1970, (Emphasis mine, ZYD)

 

 

This seems to indicate that absolute void, which is not empty occurs "within" the body centers.  I put within in parenthesis because within and without are not exactly the same at this point as they are to ordinary consciousness, but it does not seem that they are the thogal visions seen while gazing at the sky.

 

spiritual vitality will soar up to form a circle (of light) which is not void: Just as a note, it was references to early Thogal visions involving a "circle of light" in Wells early posts on Thogal, as well as the dissolution of the body that first interested me in Thogal and its possible connection with Taoist Yoga.  Wells (under his previous name Zoom) has erased almost all of these posts, so I can't be sure exactly where I saw this in his early posts on Thogal.

 

 

I rarely see mention of the solar plexus and would you expand on this? When Reshad Feild came to Santa Fe he had all of his students breath into the solar plexus and out the heart center with a 7-1-7-1 rhythm. Feild would bilocate to his students and have conversations in real time and I would assume that phenomenon is a form of the light body?

 

Feild teaches from a Sufi lineage and is influenced by Gurdjieff.

[Tibetan_Ice]

That appears to be my experience.

So which of the six lamps do you think you are using? (They aren't all Kati)