Dzogchen Thogal: a Buddhist creative adaptation of a Daoist technique?

[Wells]

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Edited July 1, 2016 by Wells

[Apech]

Once you have achieved rainbow body, you won't reincarnate and "forget" again.

All claims of such cases by individuals of organizations are just baseless claims to justify positions of power,

which are in fact simply without reasonable justification!

 

And the role of most individuals is not to become enlightened, it is to reproduce to keep the pool of human population in existence.

They are like the soil of mud whose reason for existence is that on its base from time to time a lotus flower might bloom.

 

 

Are you talking about me?

 

[TheDustAutumn]

I seemingly overestimated your intelligence. When I found it funny that you are suggesting the same book from Tenzin Wangyal as Jax does, it was funny for me because you and your kind try put him down in every instance possible. This is ridicolous anyways because he is an official dzogchen teacher, someone who got permission and transmission from Namkhai Norbu to teach. How deluded and brainwashed must be the group of people (shall we call them "Malcolmists"?) who ignore or deny these facts every time confronted with them again and again? Malcolmists are brainwashed mindless drones imo.

And for me, I see Jax as critical as I see everyone else. For me he is a valuable source of informations and with the informations from him I provided in this thread, he confirmed my own suspicions with great evidence and I am of course grateful for that. I certainly don't agree with all of his conclusions on diverse other subjects, but that applies also to my opinion of the conclusions of Namkhai Norbu, Tenzin Namdak etc. I guess that's strange for someone who feels compelled to believe every word of every dzogchen guru (besides Jax) immedeately without critically thinking about it, isn't it?

I actually agree with this. I really have no idea about what goes on behind the scenes in the Dzogchen community, but regardless of how qualified the guy is to teach or what lineage he has, etc, the hypothesis and conclusions that can be drawn from the text he presented is worth investigating, both from a Taoist and a Buddhist standpoint, as it may help the understanding and progress in both systems.

The fact that the guy that found the text and posted it is a bad teacher, or has just transmission but is not qualified to teach are not really what is being discussed here

Edited June 16, 2016 by TheDustAutumn

[Wells]

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Edited July 1, 2016 by Wells

[doc benway]

When I found it funny that you are suggesting the same book from Tenzin Wangyal as Jax does, it was funny for me because you and your kind try put him down in every instance possible.

I don't believe I've ever said a critical word about Jax. 

I've never read or followed his teachings and only know about him through seeing others, including yourself, criticize him.

 

The first step towards the goal you seek is to look at yourself clearly, critically, and deeply.

Until you do that, all the thodgal practice in the world will be a waste of time.

[C T]

You "doubt somehow" and without being able to pinpoint exact reasons because you are brainwashed into believing so.

Seemingly many people who want to overcome all delusion are on the way exactly contrary to their goal...

ya, ya... we are all brainwashed except you. 

[thelerner]

What are you talking about?

Advice from authorities on how to live your life "better" or "be better"?

If you don't find your way on your own and need an authority to tell you how to live, what to do and who to be,

you can also go to a psychologist or life coach.

I am talking about achieving complete enlightenment.

And "buddhist things" won't help you to achieve that if Jax is right.

Thogal will.

I was talking about advice from the wise on how to live better, the long tradition of dharma talks.  Disregard wisdom and odds are the trajectory of your life will go in the wrong direction.

 

You study from the wise inorder to become a little wiser.  You study from Jax to get what Jax has.  And I believe he doesn't have a rainbow body or complete enlightenment.  I suspect unless he's an ascetic holy man like those very few who've achieved it in the past, he and you are spinning your wheels.  Unless the practice itself is giving you enough benefits to be happy without such an extremely rare accomplishment.

 

Your approach and mindset seem overly intellectual.  You want to tread the path of holy mystics while disdaining the deeper wisdom in the traditions, continually entangling yourself in petty arguments and pissing contests on the internet.   Big mistake in my opinion.   Without attaining the wisdom and discipline in there system through learning, listening and applying you're on a stool missing a leg.   Energetics and meditation are great, but at some point you're just polishing rocks. 

[RigdzinTrinley]

this is very amusing

[rex]

Are there currently any Daoist lineages that are continuing these togal type practices?

[ralis]

Are there currently any Daoist lineages that are continuing these togal type practices?

Yes.

[Zhongyongdaoist]

this is very amusing

Like all such discussions it is funny and sad at the same time, about which I may have more to say at some point.

 

In the meantime I thought I would take the liberty of quoting this informative post here, where it may do some good:

 

Greetings everyone,

 

In honor of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu's upcoming retreat on the pranayamas of Yantra Yoga, I want to say something about this marvelous system, which has benefited me a great deal.

 

In contrast to Indian Yoga, where there is an abundance of information on postures and pranayama exercises available, Tibetan pranayama exercises are not given out to the general public, and to a large extent even the systems of systems of yoga postures are secret. One of the exceptions to this secrecy is Yantra Yoga taught by Chogyal Namkhai Norbu.

 

Yantra Yoga is a Sanskritization of Trul Khor, a "yantra" being a series of movements linked with breathing. In the practice, movement is done on inhales and exhales, and breath retention is done holding a posture. Those who have researched Tibetan breathing practices such as tummo have probably seen that they use a type of breath retention called vase breath. But what exactly is vase breath - how does one do it? Getting clarity on this is not easy. This is where Yantra Yoga comes in: in Yantra a proper vase breath is divided into four steps: open hold, directed hold, closed hold, and contracted hold, which in turn are done on the basis of correct inhalation and exhalation. The mechanics of the movements and poses make your body do these elements correctly (provided you are doing practice with awareness). So you get a very precise felt sensation of what a proper quick inhale, slow inhale, quick exhale, slow exhale, open hold, directed hold, closed hold, contracted hold, and empty hold feel like. You then take this knowledge and apply it to your pranayama practice, so there is no doubt that you are doing it correctly. Brilliant!

 

Different holds are trained by different yoga postures. Backbends such as cobra, locust and bow train open hold; twists train directed hold; inversions such as sholderstand and headstand are poses that train closed hold; and downward dog, fish, and frog are poses that train contracted hold (I am using the standard Hatha Yoga names for the poses here, although they are often similar or the same in the Tibetan system).

 

There is more to the system than that such as various preliminary and closing exercises, but training the different holds using postures is the gist of it.

 

There are many books and DVDs available to learn the system. In my case, I went to yoga classes in my area with good lineage (Iyengar and Ashtanga) in order to learn the poses correctly, and then learned the Yantra Yoga way of linking the poses together with breath from the books and DVDs.

 

So that is the physical aspect of the system. It is very good even if you are just interested in Hatha Yoga because you understand what correct breathing is like, rather than just correct physical alignment, and this plus the dynamics of the different holds opens up a deeper understanding of subtle inner alignments. A lot of things about yoga postures make a lot more sense to me having studied this.

 

Now, about pranayama. There are two preliminary pranayamas which are forms of alternate nostril breathing, and then five main pranayamas of which use vase breath in a major way. The first two of these are more physical and the last three incorporate visualizations of channels and chakras.

 

Chogyal Namkhai Norbu is going to be teaching these pranayamas in his next retreat which will be webcasted (!) for free (!!). He typically spends one or two session of every retreat teaching about Dzogchen generally, and then teaches the practices specific to that retreat, with one session at some point explaining and then giving direct introduction (!!!).

 

These pranayamas are not associated with the cycle of a deity like other Tibetan tsa lung systems, but are directly related with Dzogchen. So if you get the direct introduction and oral explanation, you have permission to practice. And he doesn't teach these particular practices very often. What's more, the books that serve as references for the practices he teaches are only available to members of his organization, the one exception being the book on the complete system of Yantra Yoga, which is publicly available.

http://www.amazon.com/Yantra-Yoga-Tibetan-Movement/dp/1559393084/

 

In other words, this retreat, in addition to the publicly available book, is giving unprecedented access to authentic Tibetan pranayamas connected with Dzogchen.

 

The retreat will be June 3-7, from Tenerife, Spain. The official schedule is not up yet, but typically the session are two hours each, with a 10 am morning session and an afternoon session starting a 3 or 4 pm.

 

http://melong.com/events_listing/spain-tenerife-dzamling-gar-june-3-7-2016/

http://webcast.dzogchen.net/

 

by helping to shed some light on a person whose teachings are referenced in this discussion, but the nature of which have not been sufficiently clarified, for the benefit of those who may not be familiar with who Norbu is and what he teaches.

[ralis]

If anyone had attended a Norbu retreat, he gives hints that are obvious to anyone paying careful attention. For the most part such hints are nonverbal. E.g. guru yoga practice is realizing one's own guru/teacher. That he was extremely clear and I realized that in just a few months.

 

Dzogchen teachers such as Norbu make it absolutely clear from the beginning that they are not spiritual parents!

Edited June 16, 2016 by ralis

[ralis]

Like all such discussions it is funny and sad at the same time, about which I may have more to say at some point.

 

In the meantime I thought I would take the liberty of quoting this informative post here, where it may do some good:

 

 

 

by helping to shed some light on a person whose teachings are referenced in this discussion, but the nature of which have not been sufficiently clarified, for the benefit of those who may not be familiar with who Norbu is and what he teaches.

I was able to watch Fabio teach for about an hour on that Web cast but missed the rest due to time difference.

 

For anyone wanting to watch a replay of the retreat, membership is required which runs around 250.00 USD a year. I refused to become a member around 20 years ago for this very reason.

Edited June 16, 2016 by ralis

[rex]

Are there currently any Daoist lineages that are continuing these togal type practices?

  

Yes.

Now that is interesting, thanks. Do you or anyone else here know the lineage names, what they call the practice(s) and if the practice(s) are being taught openly to Westerners?

[Zhongyongdaoist]

  

Now that is interesting, thanks. Do you or anyone else here know the lineage names, what they call the practice(s) and if the practice(s) are being taught openly to Westerners?

 

To give a quick answer on which I will elaborate later, Jerry Alan Johnson, among others, represents Orthodox Ritual Daoist transmission, which includes these types of practices and Johnson certainly teaches Westerners.

[Wells]

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Edited July 1, 2016 by Wells

[doc benway]

So you also never said a critical word against Jax on dharmawheel

and don't have negative prejudices towards Jax?

 

No, I'm not an active member of dharmawheel. I once made an introductory post there about 2 years ago... that's it. 

I wasn't very enthusiastic about all the bickering. I've read a few things about Jax here but don't have an opinion one way or the other.

 

 

Because you seemingly outed yourself as a Malcomist recently here:

http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/41198-is-dzogchen-about-cultivation-or-should-the-teachings-just-not-exist/?p=692167

 

I do think he is well educated in the dharma.

i've read a few of his posts at vajrachakra and dharmawheel (mostly from links here) and he clearly knows his stuff and walks the walk.

That's about it.

I do think his upcoming book looks exciting and that's why I shared the link.

It's a translation of Vimalamitra's commentary on Dzogchen - anyone interested in Dzogchen would probably be excited about it.

 

 

 

Why do you assume that I don't "look at myself clearly, critically, and deeply"?

 

It's clear from your actions and words. You are way too focused on things outside of yourself, things that are exciting and extreme and promise a short cut to perfection. You demonstrate an aversion to practices that require looking inside and facing your own shortcomings, like ngondro. I could go on but that's more than enough. 

 

Why do you assume that thogal practice doesn't work without that?

 

Thodgal practice is nothing more than clearly seeing how the outside world is a projection of the inner - the heart/mind.

The foundation of having this realization is recognition of the nature of mind followed by developing a high level of stability in that nature. 

One cannot develop stability in the nature of mind without getting rid of the psycho-emotional baggage and energetic blockages that we all live with. One cannot recognize visions as pure vision without having cultivated a high degree of purity in oneself. Otherwise, the baggage just keeps coming up and bouncing around and drowns out the subtle and spontaneous visions. This is the case whether working with Daoist, Buddhist, or Bönpo practices. The Daoists and Dzogchenpas approach the issue a bit differently but all focus on achieving a high degree of inner purity, clarity, and stability first. There is no other way than working through one's own self with all of its garbage and dirty laundry. You need a very clear looking glass and that looking glass is your own psyche.

 

edited to be less critical...

Edited June 17, 2016 by steve

[ChiForce]

You can say the same thing about Chan Buddhism and Taoism...  The thing with Dzogchen is that unless you are being taught by another master, you are not really practicing Dzogchen.  You can read about it. 

[Jax]

Here are two thogal postures that are only found in Taoist yoga and thogal. The "lion posture" is unique to thogal practice.

 

But they won't upload...??

[Jax]

I recommend joining my "Tao and Dzogchen" group on Facebook. I have lots of details posted there also the photos of the thogal posture of the Rishi and Lion posture from a Taoist source. I modified my comments to say Vimalamitra probably retooled the Taoist thogal type teachings. "Rip-off" was too presumptive. But I think someone knowingly created a false Garab Dorje origin to thogal.

 

By the way, there are very many lies about me posted on Dharma Wheel. I am glad to clarify any of the negative criticisms here, in a neutral playing field. Malcolm's Tibetan Lama teacher told me personally he violated samaya with him as he told him not to post about Dzogchen on the internet. I have no such samaya issues. Statements that Lamas spoke negatively about me were 2nd hand lies. Here is my lineage bio:

 

Hi all!

 

From time to time l am asked if I have any actual training in the traditional Dzogchen lineages. I then each time put together a short "bio" regarding my Dzogchen background. For those curious to know:

 

I have all lineage teachings, lung and practice instructions for Dzogchen Semde, Longde and Mangagde including Yangti from Namkhai Norbu in 1985-1988. I was his private chef for a time and spent much personal time alone with him. He gave me permission to teach Dzogchen Semde. I also received the Dzogchen trekchod and thogal instructions of Shardza Rinpoche directly from the Bon Menri Lopon. I also received the thogal transmission for the Yeshe Lama through Dudjum Rinpoche's lineage. I also received the essential Mahamudra teachings in a practice retreat from the lineage of the Dalai Lama. In 1978 while in Nepal Sabchyu Rinpoche performed the initial empowerment for generation stage practice for the Karma Kagyu personally for me. I received many more transmissions both from Kagyu and Nyinma for gTumo yoga. I received and practiced the tantric sadhanas of Vajrayogini and the Siamukha tradition of Ayo Khandro as well as a Chod practice tradition of Machig Labdron. I received personal instruction from Trungpa Rinpoche in 1979 and others including Kalu Rinpoche and Lama Wangdor in 80's. I attended a retreat with Dr. Trogawa Rinpoche regarding Tibetan medicine in relation to Dzogchen. I have plenty of lineage transmissions!

 

I have been leading retreats all over Europe, North and Central America for almost ten years with hundreds of past attendees.

[C T]

... the Siamukha tradition of Ayo Khandro...

Just for those who might want to google stuff they read here, i think the above is a typo (we all make typos btw) that Jax may choose to verify, but im quite sure that's 'Simhamukha', or specifically Dakini Jnana Simhamukha. 

[Zhongyongdaoist]

Thanks for joining the discussion.

Images on the Dao Bums are easiest posted as links rather than uploaded. Here is an image of the lion posture:

 

 

That the link is:

 

http:_//fr.syvum.com/iosundry/fun/yoga/yoga_pose_roaring_lion_simhasana.jpg

 

anything in this format can easily be displayed by clicking on the little green frame just above the text editing box next to the <>.  In the above example I have put a "_" in it thus, "http:_//", to make sure that it stays visible as text rather then being turned into a link and is not part of what was pasted into the image display function that I mentioned.

 

You can probably do this for your Facebook images, just hold the mouse pointer over the image and hold down the right mouse button and from the "Context Menu" that shows up chose "copy image location".

 

As far as the title of this thread I might have used something like:

 

Dzogchen Thogal: a Buddhist creative adaptation of a Daoist technique?

 

This is neutral enough so as not to be insulting, but gets the point across.

 

I don't do Facebook, so as much as you can post here would be most welcome.

[Jax]

That is not lion posture in my picture. Mine is the thogal

posture exactly.

[Jax]

Let's try this:

 

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1275991685745160&set=pcb.1264949526868136&type=3&relevant_count=2

 

 

It works when I click on it...

Edited June 17, 2016 by Jax

[Jax]

That was not a typo... I just spelled it completely wrong!j

 

http://vajranatha.com/teaching/Simhamukha.htm