Vasectomy

[Nikolai1]

I'm nearly 40 with three children and my partner and I are certain we don't want any more. I've noticed that friends in the same situation are starting to have the vasectomy.

 

For me there seems something unnatural about this solution. Be really interested in hearing your opinions?

[Kubba]

I'm not a specialist in it but I've heard from 2 different spiritual teachers that balls are needed. One of them said that any manipulation with you genitals causes problems in further developement (I can even find it and quote it for you). Other one said something simmilar - that you can't reach the highest states when being castrated but since I know vasectomia is not equal as castration.

[Nikolai1]

Thanks! Any quotes would be appreciated

[Kar3n]

My husband had a vasectomy years ago. It has had no adverse effects on him spiritually.

 

If you do have it done, I suggest you follow the doctor's orders to the letter afterward.

[Michael Sternbach]

Hi Nikolai,

 

I would advise against the procedure. For a number of reasons:

 

1. I'm distrustful of many invasive medical procedures, even though I don't deny that they have their place under certain more dire circumstances. Whenever there is a choice, I recommend not to hamper with nature's wonderful designs. The intervention you are contemplating may be said to be quite safe, even though there are some studies suggesting an increase of prostate cancer in the patients. The results were somewhat inconclusive, and I would imagine that many doctors would tend to err on the unsafe side. But beyond that, orthodox medicine doesn't consider symptoms occurring in bodily systems that are "widely separated" from one that has been treated as having anything to do with the latter. In holistic and energetic kinds of medicine (TCM, homeopathy etc) such connections are evident,  however.
2. In extension of the foregoing, the supposed disruption in your subtle energy system could have unpredictable effects on your spiritual cultivation. Don't expect to see scientific studies on this anytime soon.
3. It may be psychologically detrimental to a human being (man and woman alike) to have their power of procreation destroyed. Even if the head says that all is well - your psyche includes parts that are looking at things in more archaic ways, and it's best to respect those when you can.
4. For the same subconscious reason, your attractiveness to your (fertile) partner may be diminished.
5. By the same token, the loss of the ability to conceive a child reduces your attrativeness to potential other partners (read: competitors), and that might have negative effects for you in your existing relationship as well. I would expect a subtle shift of power towards your partner, at least. - I guess my boldness will be shocking to some; especially, to those who are not aware or in denial of  the influence that archaic and subconscious impulses have on our sophistic behaviour. I think I'm just being realistic.
6. Your idea rests on the assumption that you are going to stay with your current partner (which you have had plenty of children with) for the rest of your life. This may well be so, but fact is, you never know what is going to happen in the future. Here, I could tell you about a case that I have personally witnessed... For that reason alone, it would seem wise for you to keep your body's full functionality.
7. I'm simply amazed that, in some rare cases, the body will reverse a vasectomy all by itself, just as it sometimes regrows a removed appendix or another "unnecessary" part. Such is its great wisdom.

For all these reasons, my friend, I positively recommend to you:

 

[silent thunder]

I had one four years ago.  It was a good decision for us.  My wife came to me after and revealed that she had no concrete idea just how worried she was about another possible pregnancy and how that was affecting her ability to let go and be truly intimate until we got the all clear.  We were planning on having a child when she got pregnant, but we hadn't yet gone off birth control, we were waiting another six months to start trying after a trip to Europe.  Well, she came to me one afternoon and said "I think Europe will have to wait honey... your Viking sperm stormed my defenses and I'm pregnant!"

 

How blissfully awesome of my son to come into my life in such a manner.

Her birth however, was an emergency c-section and both my son and wife nearly died during the procedure.  (this was a major reason I had resisted having a child my entire life with her as I had been having precognitive experiences of this my entire life).  So the fear she experienced in the face of love making was very deep and quite debilitating.  Not only at our age were we not prepared for another child, but it could have been exceedingly dangerous given the past and our age.

 

I consulted my cousin, who had the procedure over a decade ago, prior to my decision.  He has a long standing Qigong practice and is an acupuncturist.   He is an energetic powerhouse and when we were discussing it his experience mirrored his teacher's reaction when he brought it up before his procedure, 'the energy finds a way'.   He then lifted up his feet, one after another and showed me the holes burned through his practice shoes directly under his Yongquan.

 

He said he had noticed no debilitation in his practice at all.

 

Four years now after that procedure, I can say my practice is thriving, I have noticed no detrimental effects at all and the intimacy between my wife and I is one of the great treasures of my life and has been reawakened due to a lack of fear.  Unlike many of the retention crowd... I have never suffered from any debilitating effects after making love to my wife.  Although, my approach to sex is not very typical of a Western male anyway.  Only two partners in my life, both of them women of extreme wisdom and open, loving, spiritual hearts.  So the energetic connection and synthesis of energy in the union has always surpassed any energetic loss, but I digress.

 

Let me reiterate, that my experience has resulted in no debilitating effects, my cousin, now some 16 years after his procedure mirrors the same and on a wonderful benefit side, it seems to me that one of the greatest possible aphrodisiacs for a woman over 40 is the word 'vasectomy'.  Our life is rich, full and deeply connected. 

 

I wish you well.  Oh and the recovery, was very mellow.  I was slow moving the first day, but felt fine day two... don't believe the hype of the pain.

 

edit:  cursed spelling and grammar goblins... someday I might really proofread.

Edited June 15, 2016 by silent thunder

[ralis]

I fail to see that there is an appearance of a spiritual structure unless one is deferring back to an old Theosophical belief system which is inaccurate. The human energy field appears far too complex for beliefs in energy bodies that have human shape.

Edited June 15, 2016 by ralis

[Dharmakaya]

 

 

I consulted my cousin, who had the procedure over a decade ago, prior to my decision.  He has a long standing Qigong practice and is an acupuncturist.   He is an energetic powerhouse and when we were discussing it his experience mirrored his teacher's reaction when he brought it up before his procedure, 'the energy finds a way'.   He then lifted up his feet, one after another and showed me the holes burned through his practice shoes directly under his Yongquan.
 

 

 

 

Woah!  Does your cousin have a website or something? 

[silent thunder]

Woah!  Does your cousin have a website or something? 

Not presently.   He has been studying full time the last couple years.

[Aetherous]

Opinions vary...some saying the extreme, that there is no possibility for certain types of spiritual development if the procedure is done. It's possible that these ideas were from a time where they didn't fully understand science. Or it's possible that we're incapable of judging from our position what those types of spiritual development look like, and if they're no longer happening within the snipped person.

[Nikolai1]

Thank you all for the viewpoints.  I suppose I should say more about my own thoughts.

 

I think first of all, I've decided that I won't consider a vasectomy.  For me the strong Conviction that you won't father any more children is a kind of milestone in our development.  And silent thunder is absolutely right - once that Conviction has struck you, then sex can't be enjoyed with the same abandon.  There is a kind of fear surrounding the subject - like you are playing with fire.  With three young children in the house we are tired and financially stretched and another child would make this situation a great deal worse.

 

But still, to fix this situation with medical surgery seems false - seems to go against the Way. It seems a solution that is not holistic. To me it shows a stubborn attachment to sexual intercourse, and an unwillingness to imagine how life can be lived without it.  I guess for me, if you are happy to have sex then you should be happy to deal with the consequences of sex - this is a holistic situation.  The Conviction reveals to us that we are no longer willing to deal with the consequences of sex.

 

So, for me, the thing to try out with resolve and conviction is to try and live without more children and without more sex. I wonder if this might start a new phase in our pasychosexual development - the post-sexual phase.  All the traditions have pointed out the role of celibacy, but I think that it is less often talked about as a natural response to the circumstances of life.  For a 40 year old man with three children to go celibate is quite different to a 21 year old doing it out of a strong willed desire to boost his energetics.  For me it is arising from a specific threshold that has been crossed, and I think this makes celibacy seems rational, natural, appealing and perhaps easier.

 

Broadly speaking, it is one of my major insights that the pleasures of life are often preparations for deeper, more enduring pleasures.  I wonder if celibacy can bring a more deep, stable sense of well-being than the orgasm can provide - though both types of well-being are of the same fundamental nature?

[Nikolai1]

BTW I agree that a vasectomy wouldn't interfere with our senergetic / spiritual development.  For me the main problem woud be the unwillingness to consider life without sex - even though there are strong messages from life that sex is no longer suitable for you.  So the person who has a vasectomy would be limited not by the medical procedure, but by the attitude that made them seek out the procedure.

[Michael Sternbach]

First off, in light of the views I shared above, I'm glad to hear that you have decided not to do this.

 

However, I feel that now you are throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

 

The way I see it, sex is not only meant for procreation, but also a spiritual activity that deepens the energetic connection with your partner.

 

You may be "receiving messages that sex is no longer appropriate for you", but what about your partner? Are you sure she is okay with that?

 

Are you considering an alternative to "normal" sex?

[Nikolai1]

First off, in light of the views I shared above, I'm glad to hear that you have decided not to do this.

 

However, I feel that now you are throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

 

The way I see it, sex is not only meant for procreation, but also a spiritual activity that deepens the energetic connection with your partner.

 

You may be "receiving messages that sex is no longer appropriate for you", but what about your partner? Are you sure she is okay with that?

 

Are you considering an alternative to "normal" sex?

I'm not saying that its the end of intimacy, but maybe the end of the specific act that is intercourse.  For me, I can't see a way around this.  If you have intercourse, then babies may come.  And this seems especially true for us, who have always conceived very easily.  But let me know what you think?

[Songtsan]

I've never had kids, so I am more and more interested (though not attached) in having one....however, I have considered it in the past, and I believe that it is give and take....having a child can certainly impact your ability to undertake cultivation, but only in a certain mindset...24/7 meditation (which involves the most intense non-attachment) should have no problem with having children.

[Nikolai1]

I've never had kids, so I am more and more interested (though not attached) in having one....however, I have considered it in the past, and I believe that it is give and take....having a child can certainly impact your ability to undertake cultivation, but only in a certain mindset...24/7 meditation (which involves the most intense non-attachment) should have no problem with having children.

Yes, those with children must follow a certain type of practice and their path will be more bhakti in nature.  From the moment the child is born the parent must quickly learn to put their own needs and desires second.  The parent must yield to the needs of their child and very often the needs of their partner.  

 

You have to learn that deep sense of OKness, even when things aren't going exactly how you want. In the early days, the lesson is very strident and direct.  Your whole being is wanting sleep, but when the baby cries, you must put the baby first.  Doing this, you learn to access the deep resources which others learn to access through meditation.  Yes, meditation is made much harder with children in the house - mostly because of time constraints - but parenthood is also spiritual practice.

[joeblast]

I had one 3 or 4 years ago, it has not affected cultivation one iota.  People theorizing about potential adverse spiritual effects are mostly theorizing out their rear end.

[Michael Sternbach]

I'm not saying that its the end of intimacy, but maybe the end of the specific act that is intercourse.  For me, I can't see a way around this.  If you have intercourse, then babies may come.  And this seems especially true for us, who have always conceived very easily.  But let me know what you think?

So intimacy without intercourse? Back in high-school? Well, better have a few condoms in stock, just in case that one of you would be overcome...

 

There are in fact various quite natural methods of pregnancy prevention known. Some aboriginal people practise them too, to my knowledge. It's incorrect that having sex without wishing children is inconsequential, unless you agree with the Catholic Church that this is its sole purpose. If this were valid (as far as humans are concerned), how come (no pun intended here) females are particularly sexually attractive and sensitive during their menstruation? - As certain studies showed.

 

Regarding the question of sex and spirituality in general, I would like to share a Zen koan that I once read and that I will try to reproduce from memory:

 

A wandering monk once asked an older lady for accommodation. She allowed him to stay in a hut on her property. While the monk was meditating, the lady sent her niece to him. The young woman laid her head in his lap (which is obviously an euphemism) and asked him: "Does this please you, sir?" Well, to cut this short, it didn't please him, and he pushed her away. When the older lady heard this, she got very angry, chased the monk away and burned down his hat in a big fire. - Fire obviously being a symbol for passionate sex.

 

Tell me please what you think the creator of this koan was trying to express.

[Michael Sternbach]

I had one 3 or 4 years ago, it has not affected cultivation one iota.  People theorizing about potential adverse spiritual effects are mostly theorizing out their rear end.

No comment.

[Nikolai1]

See I don't think this koan is about sex. It's about living by the codes of the world when you are in need of the world. It is a reminder that we must be grateful to the gifts that are offered to us. The monk thought he could accept some gifts and not others - this was in skillful of him.

 

But anyway, Michael, you don't seem to like vasectomy but are you an advocate of other types of birth control?

[Wells]

.

Edited July 1, 2016 by Wells

[joeblast]

No comment.

precisely

[Michael Sternbach]

See I don't think this koan is about sex. It's about living by the codes of the world when you are in need of the world. It is a reminder that we must be grateful to the gifts that are offered to us. The monk thought he could accept some gifts and not others - this was in skillful of him.

 

But anyway, Michael, you don't seem to like vasectomy but are you an advocate of other types of birth control?

 

I am not opposed to birth control per se. I recommend non-invasive and non-abortive methods. We can talk about that more, if you are interested.

[WisteriaWinds]

I'm nearly 40 with three children and my partner and I are certain we don't want any more. I've noticed that friends in the same situation are starting to have the vasectomy.

 

For me there seems something unnatural about this solution. Be really interested in hearing your opinions?

I had similar concerns but knew I couldn't lose the realization I had attained so I went forward with it. Surprisingly my energy amplified. I've had no ill effects and only positive ones.

[Nikolai1]

I am not opposed to birth control per se. I recommend non-invasive and non-abortive methods. We can talk about that more, if you are interested.

 

 

The beauty of non permanent birth control is that people can enjoy a sexual relationship, even though the timing isn't right for them to be conceiving children.  But for a person of 40 who already has three children, such a person may feel like their days of conceiving children are behind them.  This is a distinctive emotion - and thus a person can feel a dread at the thought of conception that they never felt when they were younger.  And therefore a fear can start to spoil our sex life that wasn't there  - even in the days when we were less emotionally and financially stable in our relationship.

 

Obviously the vasectomy is a solution to this problem, but I think a lesser solution.  Surely the solution is celibacy?  That way our bodies and reproductive system are left as nature intended them AND we are free of the fear of conception.

 

Fundamentally it seems to rest on one question.  Is it natural and desirable that people continue to have sex when their desire for children is over? Some say yes, some say no.  I guess speaking personally, I wonder what else sex has to offer me - even if it is free of fear.  Sex is so much a part of human culture that it seems impossible to think of life without it.  And yet to me it still falls in the same category as drink, drugs, fame, wealth and all the other substitutions people use in place of the joy of pure being.

 

Anyone who has tried celibacy will report that there are compensations.  We feel more stable, confident and more content.  But it seems that the energy that is released by celibacy can't be contained by the body - we are set on edge by the energy - and it seems the only way back to balance is by sexual release.

 

For me spiritual practice is all about developing the capacity to contain energy. Celibacy becomes easier as we grow more used to dealing and channeling what is left over.  If we are sedentary or uninspired then that energy will become uncontainable and so celibacy is out of the question.  Put a monkey in a cage and masturbation becomes absolutely necessary for his well-being because his energy levels become unmanageble.

 

The question of sex and the importance of sex in a relationship reminds me of the question of meditation.  There comes a point where sitting meditation falls to deepen our insight.  We are called to integrate meditation into our daily life and develop the ability to stay centred even while outwardly active.  Sex is like deliberate meditation.  But if we are able to express the love and intimacy in each moment, then the concentrated session, becomes unnecessary.  This is why i think that the move towards celibacy is natural at some point in our path.

 

I don't yet know whether I am personally ready for celibacy, but one thing is sure : I certainy see it as being my future and it is the future I wish for myself.