Iaido ?

[Nungali]

Is any  one here familiar with Iaido ? Specifically the Sagao  - its  usage mostly .

 

( And when it is tied from sword scabbard to belt, )

 

 

 

[Jim D.]

I am a practioner of Mugai ryu. I Youtube to be very helpful regarding your question. I just throw the sageo back and over my saya and bring it forward and loop it under my Himo starp. I don't tie it, it is just there to pull out when I bow out. The sageo was used to tie back the sleeves of the gi/kimono. I think that the sageo was also used to tie up the other guys sword so he couldn't use it to cut you.

 

JD

[Michael Sternbach]

I am no practitioner of iai-do myself. From what little I know, the sagao is not usually tied to the belt, and I'm not sure why you would want to do that. Have you seen this somewhere?

[Jim D.]

Our sageo is not tied to the Himo but put under it so that the saya can easily be removed when bowing out. Can you imagine the sageo actually being tied to the Himo with a square knott, and there you/they are taking all day to get the saya out so you/we could bow out. Or can you imagine testing for a Kyu and needing to use a square knott to affix the sageo to something. Sometimes I have to look down to find a good spot to tuck the sageo under my Himo it's so tight. I want it tight so that my hakama does not slip down and I accidently step on the hakama when practicing the sitting katas. The shoe horn looking thing (dome) attached to the Koshiita is suppose to keep it from sagging. But if I do not have it securely behind my obi knott this can happen. Just recently I got it by bending over to create a bigger opening to allow the dome to be placed farther down behind the knott. This seemed to work.

 

I am working on Hashiri Gakari Katas. Where are you in the learning curve? How is it that you got into Iaido? What do you like about it?

 

JD

[Jim D.]

I just noticed that said that you are not a practioner of Iaido. In the Japanese language "no" means of. Or it could be by glasses. I am due for a check up soon.

 

JD

[Nungali]

[ Sorry for lapse, I have been unable to get on this site ( Daobums offline notice ...) I cleared the cache as I used to have to, but that doesnt work ......  got in through the back door today. ]

 

Michael, yes I have seen it before .... there are also instructional videos that show how to attach, drape and ,yes, tuck it up under the Hakama tie string ( and the one I saw tucked a loop under and a loop through that to make a quick release  knot ) .

 

 

Thanks for response JD.  You suggest the only sensible usage so far - to tie back the sleaves,  (in a loo around each shoulder and crossed at the back ... like a figure 8 at the back ? ) .  This makes sense.  Holding in the right hand with equal 1/3 of the cord held in the fingers ( when being 'polite' ) ..... put through the belts on the right side, ready for a draw, with the cord handy ... handy to tie the sleeves back when accepting a challenge .

 

But what did one do about the sleeves for an ' impolite '  or surprise attack ?   And why attach it to the sword and not the outfit ? I suppose some ceremonial or ritual reason.

 

Sometimes its tied on a complex knot on the sword.   In any case I will go for the sleeve answer.

 

And since we don't train in hakama, I consider it defunct for us.   I am having 'trouble' with the instructor, suggesting crazy stuff "All you guys need to have .... one of those cords tied to your swords ... you  < ie. me > look it up and find out about it.

 

Right ..... last Saturday I told him 'No we don't need to use that . '      he is good at what he does know about ... but the rest <rolls eyes> .

 

The background is Kobudo not Iaido ,  one weapon we train with is bokken .  We do a formal draw and bow and bow and re sheath at the end of an exercise 'kata' or a bout.  Instructor has tried to make this 'iaido like' ....  I want nothing to do with that, we are training in a park in t-shirts and track pants for goodness sake !    The other week he had people bring in metal swords ( I would not call them ' real swords ' )   and were practising a type of unco-ordinated wild pack thing  . 

 

Its hard to assess my learning curve.  Teacher claims various sword info , but I know he was taught it by an aikikai aikidoist.  I was too years back. Any 'style' I have is based on what I learnt from Shorin Ryu and kobudo being inserted into the sword work. I seem to be good at 'breaking out the box', teacher seems stuck in it ..... actually, I hacked apart a box for him last week that he was stuck in ..... 

 

( a bit of back ground ; he has instructed ne to write a book / manual, naming and numbering all our techniques for all the weapons, and empty hand  ! .gnorw tsuj dna dab yllaer era yeht sa ni tup ot tnaw tnod I emos .... ​

 

Great !   Here we go again ....  been having heaps of probs with this site lately !

 

... some (techiques) I don't want put in as they are really bad and just wrong  ( we work by actually trying things in applications and eliminating and adapting them if they are not really practical .  But, like many martial arts - its full of impractical stuff. Classic example was the 'box I cut him out of '  - a technique where the attacker does a slash across your belly as you are standing 45 % on, you supposedly turn hip back so you are square on, allowing the others sword tip to pass and as it passes to the right of your stomach turn hips back . 

 

He even stands there, gets the other to stand there and places their sword tip on his stomach to make them have the right distance ... WTF ?   typical 'instructor trick'.  Anyway, he goes "You left out  this one" and demonstrates. I go "I know, I left ot out on purpose."  Him  "Oh you forgot that one? Its like this."  and goes to demonstrate it for the umpteenth time with me.  So I ripped the sword across his stomach (just by leaning forward 1/2 an inch.  He shuffles, resets his stance and places the bokkan 'blade' back in front of his stomach  ​... "Now try again."   So I smashed him across his ribs !

 

......    "okay ... we will stop doing that one "   

 

So, its not Iaiado , its more like sword play /  brawling ......   that is ,  what ever keeps you 'alive' and developed by trial and error with a kobudo background. So we will go bokkan against jo, eku, sai, empty hand etc.  Also I am able to be unrestricted like I would in an aikido class ....  do it this way, or that way, 'accept the technique' this way or that way .... man, if you try to take my sword and do it wrong, I will not 'allow' I will 1/2 step back mid attack * and slice their hands off !  

 

*something I learnt from Rohi kata , that instructor taught me , yet he never thought to apply it to sword work ...  

​

 

Not at all like Iaido practice eh ?  Also in a bout I am liable to stick my sword in the ground and flick dirt up into your eyes, kick my sandal off and launch it at your face while attacking, force onto uneven ground and obstacles, get the sun in their eyes etc.  I finished off Aikido instructor like that. Of course, during training I would have to behave. But sometimes he would keep me back when the others had left ; "See if you can really kill me with one of your techniques" and rushes me, I casually step aside and do a one hand lunge gaining distance, he manages to stop in time, sword half way down, with my swords tip sideways between his ribs over the heart " Ohhh   ...  that would have done it ."  he said .  he had lever seen a one handed lunge before !  They ' don't do that' in aikido . 

 

Anyway ... here are the  bokken 'kata'  I have developed or collated that we practice;  

Edited June 19, 2016 by Nungali

[Nungali]

Nope ... cant paste and post here

[Nungali]

Anyway, there are 20 bow draw, attack counter, bow, sheath techniques.

 

5 'impolite attack; defences  ( no bowing, surprise attacks, defending with the sword sheathed in scabbard and in right hand, counters against 'stopping the draw' , etc )  and a range of empty hand defences against sword attacks Like aikido ones but not as 'nice' .

[Jim D.]

Japanese martial arts are very proper and etiquette oriented. The katas we are learning are done with grace and sometimes slower than real time. It think it is for the reason of muscle memory. The form you speak about often in your last posting sounds like our Mune Zukushi...draw sword while stepping back, right foot and twisting body sideways. Blade should be horizontl with back of blade against body at waist. Tsuki while twisting blade vertical step forward right foot with Kiri Otoshi. Step back right foot - Zanshin as you are stepping back. Chiburi and Noto.

 

Is there a Youtube that I can go to see what you are doing?

 

Your trainings sound chaotic and disorganized. But I don't know for sure. I found Iaido to provide me with a sense of empowerment after being told by my Chiropractor that if I continued Modern Arnis I would end up in a wheelchair eventually. L3,4,5 have been compromised and cannot take twisting from small circle jujistu or take downs.

 

Your Sifu sounds young and experienced. His challenging you to prove a point shows me he has missed the point of martial art...the eventual abscense of self...spiritual development.

 

JD

[Nungali]

yes ... I did years of proper and ettiquette Japanese martial arts .....    I didnt mind that ... a bit like doing a tea ceremony. Now I have graduated to a more practical version ( original sensai was personal bodyguard to Okinawan king ,  so a very real form, but the passed down tradition is 'Matsamura Seito ' - Matsamura family tradition , another  fighting real form but for family defence , in the home etc, so not as 'sacrificial' as 'temple style' .  Unfortunately the last family member and teacher Kosei Nishihira had no heir, so the tradition is finished.

 

No, it isn't really like Mune Zakushi ...  you come in to attack with sword, cutting straight down, the other moves in ,aikido style, to intercept and redirect your descending hand ... mid step , you step the stepping foot quickly back, shifting your centre line back and cut down, you have retreated about  2 feet, and now instead of the other person being able to reach your hands , arms or sword handle, their reach is only to the blade, and you cut their hands arms sliding back a half shuffle step.

 

Sorry, there is no youtube .

 

No, training is very chaotic and disorganised ... that's the issue .  A visiting instructor from interstate roused him on it - nothing is collated, named or instructed properly (I offer instruction outside training hours to others to help them ) .  Teacher assumes all have a black belt level, students and beginners drop out in confusion like flies . Experienced people like it and find it new and illuminating (the stuff he does know ) ... he just aint good at teaching !   It happens .

 

I too cant do a lot of the empty hand - shorinryu grapples, locks, twists breaks throws .... I got artheritis now ... I cant fly through the air with a sword, roll and come up ready to fight, like I used to .... also on a hip replacement surgery waiting list.  I can still do a bit, and help with instruction , innovation and common sense .      The 'old fella' still got a trick up his sleeve ... the young are still wary    

 

I am not sure what you mean by missed the point of martial arts ?    The point in my tradition was / is  fighting ....  stop them before they kill or hurt you or family . There is no 'sport aspect' .

 

If I could post a vid here  (I don't even know if this will post )  I would post the origins of Judo movie.

 

The part where the Okinawans challenge the very proper, polite and clean Japanese Judoki  .... the Okinawans are unclean, dishevelled and quiet mad ... of course  . They shock everyone by declaring, before the challenge "We do not bow ! "

 

( all in dojo looked shocked and mutter to each other   " The do not bow ! ? ! ??? " )  

 

That's the thing I like about martial arts ,  one CAN prove an argumentative point !   ... or fail too .   I am quiet open to being asked to prove my point in a live demo       Doing that and achieving success or failure and learning from that, IMO is what it is about, on a real level (but I do appreciate the 'artistic side' ) .

[Jim D.]

My apology, I meant the comment for your Aikido insructor who wanted you to stay after class. Not you.

 

I now continue to practice Classical Wu Tai Chi from a third generation Master.  I have only visited with him at his home once since I started in 2003. The rest of the time I have been a long distant student.

 

JD

[Nungali]

That's fine Jim, no need for any apology  (and thanks for the sagao info )  , I was actually confused if you meant aikido instructor or 'karate' instructor.  (you should read what the others here say to me    )

 

Still , I feel fine about being 'challenged' ..... as long as its 'friendly' .   Same teacher hosted a sword workshop with Dave Brown (also akikai ) . Dave was a totally different kettle of fish, he cross trained all over the place and tested his sword and aikido skills in other clubs and styles , eliminted what was bad, and developed what worked (and borrowed and stole techniques) .   Like I did . and that other guy too ... what was his name ....   Bruce ... something  ?    .

 

Anyway, this instructor, it was his first adventure into 'cross training' - testing his skill outside his style .

 

That creates a  steep learning curve . 

[Marblehead]

 

 

Still , I feel fine about being 'challenged' .....

Yes, you are a "challenged" person.