Jax: Longchenpa says No Need For Direct Introduction

[Tibetan_Ice]

Hi Jax,

A few years ago you defended an erroneous position that Lonchenpa stated that there is no need for Direct Introduction on the Dharmawheel forum.

 

HERE IS THE LINK: http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=7810&sid=e81d21561e5ad2da1f6a756de4a9c56a

 

You said

"Because Awareness (Rigpa) has no finite essence, and because suchness and deliberate activity are mutually exclusive, and because Awareness is already timelessly and spontaneously present, nothing need be done concerning levels of realization on which to train, spiritual paths to traverse, mandalas to visualize, empowerments to be bestowed, paths to cultivate in meditation, samaya to uphold, enlightened activities to accomplish, and so forth. This is because there is no need to accomplish anew what is already timelessly and spontaneously accomplished. If there were such need, it would be inappropriate to use the conventional designation "spontaneously present and uncompounded." And it would follow that dharmakaya was subject to destruction, because it would be compounded, and this because it would be created by causes and conditions." (practices etc.) Longchenpa, Choying Dzod, A Treasure Trove of Scriptural Transmission, page 120, first paragraph. Padma Publications.

 

Isn't Longchenpa pointing to the fact that Awareness (rigpa) cannot be attained by training, practice or any efforts of any kind? He says that because Awareness is fully present right now. Its not hidden. He even says in the same text that no "direct introduction" or realization is necessary. Your cognitive presence that is experiencing, is the experience, of the five senses, as well as your thoughts and emotions...is this timelessly present Knowingness, that Norbu call pure "noticing". It's not more present after practice or study or transmission. Its the clear unchanging Awareness that appears as everything. Is it really so hard to notice that the Awareness he is speaking of is your present open and clear awareness just as it is.

 

When corrected by the members of the forum, you persisted with your line of defense by reverting to a form of nihilistic no-self defense.

 

You wrote:

 

Lhugpa, I will post the phrase in context. Longchenpa is pointing out that there is no need for "direct introduction", who would benefit from such? The Dharmakaya does not require an introduction to itself, as though it forgot it's actual identity.

 

and

 

Dechen please hang in here with me a second. There is no one who attains or maintains the natural state or rigpa. There is no entity to rest in the natural state. The one who would recognize or rest is just the assembly of five skandhas, sem. The skandhas are arisings in that uncaused Dharmakaya, who you are. There is no self to realize Rigpa, that's a contradiction of terms. A shift suddenly occurs where the perspective is that of the Dharmakaya, experiencing Itself as total experience without the least separation. Is this really so hard to intuit? It's a radically different perspective that has nothing to do with some entity "recognizing" some conceptual state and considering it special. It's not that there is nothing "to do", but rather there is no one to do it. Knowing this is a spontaneous flash of yeshe that is identical for "everyone". It ends all conceptual involvement in hallucinatory "cause and effect" paths.

 

 

What you and the members of the forum did not point out is that whether or not there is a self to recognize rigpa is irrelevant because rigpa is self-aware. RIGPA IS AWARE OF ITSELF. You don't need a self or lack of self because rigpa will recognize itself.

 

You seem to maintain this no-self response as a form of defense. When asked if you were enlightened, you said that there is no self to become enlightened. (L Ron Gardner commentary on Amazon)

 

Jackson1 year ago

I never said "I am enlightened". No one has ever been enlightened. There is no entity to become enlightened, that includes the Buddha.

 

Further, you have said elsewhere that direct introduction/transmission is the relaying of the pointing out instructions through methods like speech, text. You do not seem to acknowledge that the accomplished Dzogchen practitioner/master can remain in such a pure state of rigpa that can then be transmitted to the student by energetic contact.

 

So my questions to you are these:

Do you still believe that Lonchenpa says that there is no need for direct introduction?

 

And

 

Do you now have the ability to directly transmit a taste of pure rigpa energetically to someone as a direct introduction?

 

Remember Garab Dorge's famous three statements?

Introducing directly the face of rigpa in itself,

Decide upon one thing and one thing only,

Confidence directly in the liberation of rising thoughts.

Garab Dorje, Hitting the Essence in Three Words

 

Edited June 18, 2016 by Tibetan_Ice

[thelerner]

TI, the post you're linking to is over 4 years old in internet time, which is like 20 for normal people.  You are the elephant of Dzogchen . 

[DiamondEyE]

ngo sprod spras pa /direct introduction is indispensable to have that knowledge of wisdom.

[ralis]

ngo sprod spras pa /direct introduction is indispensable to have that knowledge of wisdom.

 

What? You could at least explain the first part is in Tibetan. Direct introduction is not always what you think it is.

Edited June 19, 2016 by ralis

[DiamondEyE]

What? You could at least explain the first part is in Tibetan. Direct introduction is not always what you think it is.

I said it is indispensable.

[ralis]

I said it is indispensable.

 

In what way is it? By guru only?

[DiamondEyE]

In what way is it? By guru only?

The Guru can give oral, and symbolic introduction, but to have that knowledge, wisdom has to be recognized directly. Direct Introduction is indispensable in the Ati Yoga.

[ralis]

The Guru can give oral, and symbolic introduction, but to have that knowledge, wisdom has to be recognized directly. Direct Introduction is indispensable in the Ati Yoga.

 

I have had teachings in Dzogchen/transmission long before most dating back to the late 80's. Just seeing how rigid/guru oriented you are.

[Tibetan_Ice]

Bump

[already]

Hi Jax,

A few years ago you defended an erroneous position that Lonchenpa stated that there is no need for Direct Introduction on the Dharmawheel forum.

 

HERE IS THE LINK: http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=7810&sid=e81d21561e5ad2da1f6a756de4a9c56a

 

You said

When corrected by the members of the forum, you persisted with your line of defense by reverting to a form of nihilistic no-self defense.

 

You wrote:

 

 

and

 

 

What you and the members of the forum did not point out is that whether or not there is a self to recognize rigpa is irrelevant because rigpa is self-aware. RIGPA IS AWARE OF ITSELF. You don't need a self or lack of self because rigpa will recognize itself.

 

You seem to maintain this no-self response as a form of defense. When asked if you were enlightened, you said that there is no self to become enlightened. (L Ron Gardner commentary on Amazon)

 

Further, you have said elsewhere that direct introduction/transmission is the relaying of the pointing out instructions through methods like speech, text. You do not seem to acknowledge that the accomplished Dzogchen practitioner/master can remain in such a pure state of rigpa that can then be transmitted to the student by energetic contact.

 

So my questions to you are these:

Do you still believe that Lonchenpa says that there is no need for direct introduction?

 

 

 

Do you now have the ability to directly transmit a taste of pure rigpa energetically to someone as a direct introduction?

 

 

 

I would hazard a reinterpretation of Jax's statement , based on some explantions given to me by a certain dzoghchen teacher.

Is not that direct introduction is not needed is just that direct introduction cannot happen with the help of a guru.

Of course they call it "direct introduction" but what happens during this transmision is that the student has a energetic experience, which is not rigpa .It is just a temporary strong experience arising as a result of meeting certain conditions.In other words the energetic experience is depednent on conditions which of course cannot be rigpa.But with the help of these strong experiences we can go beyond what is changing and recognise that which is changeless that which is ALREADY there.And that recognition is UNMEDIATED and in that sense is direct introduction.A direct introduction by its own definition cannot include a guru or a teacher because a guru or a teacher is a condition, or the state of dharmakaya is not dependent on conditions and cannot be made to appear anew by assembling or puting together certain conditions.

However a guru is necesary in the sense that with his help we can have energetical experiences wich can be used as a bridge towards the recognition of that which cannot be given.But same experiences can be replicated by repeating the same ritual that one has participated in togheter with the guru.

[C T]

I would hazard a reinterpretation of Jax's statement , based on some explantions given to me by a certain dzoghchen teacher.

Is not that direct introduction is not needed is just that direct introduction cannot happen with the help of a guru.

Of course they call it "direct introduction" but what happens during this transmision is that the student has a energetic experience, which is not rigpa .It is just a temporary strong experience arising as a result of meeting certain conditions.In other words the energetic experience is depednent on conditions which of course cannot be rigpa.But with the help of these strong experiences we can go beyond what is changing and recognise that which is changeless that which is ALREADY there.And that recognition is UNMEDIATED and in that sense is direct introduction.A direct introduction by its own definition cannot include a guru or a teacher because a guru or a teacher is a condition, or the state of dharmakaya is not dependent on conditions and cannot be made to appear anew by assembling or puting together certain conditions.

However a guru is necesary in the sense that with his help we can have energetical experiences wich can be used as a bridge towards the recognition of that which cannot be given.But same experiences can be replicated by repeating the same ritual that one has participated in togheter with the guru.

I think i get the point you are trying to make above, but in the context of 'direct introduction' it has been explicitly stated in Dzogchen texts that the guru is indispensable (in pointing out mind essence, which is basically 'rigpa'). Not saying it cannot happen any other way, or in other traditions, which may appear to be the same thing, but just be clear then about the terms and meanings behind them. Dzogchen is a very specific practice after all. 

[already]

I think i get the point you are trying to make above, but in the context of 'direct introduction' it has been explicitly stated in Dzogchen texts that the guru is indispensable (in pointing out mind essence, which is basically 'rigpa'). Not saying it cannot happen any other way, or in other traditions, which may appear to be the same thing, but just be clear then about the terms and meanings behind them. Dzogchen is a very specific practice after all. 

It is indispensable but not for the reason of being directly introduced to the state of dharmata but for the purpose of helping us generate experiences of clarity , emptiness and pleasure.These are perfect bridges to the state of dharmata.The recognition of the state of dharmata is only done by ourselves and the guru in that specific moment has no role at all.If we want to cross a river and we dont know where the bridge is the guru can help create the conditions so we can locate the bridge but he cannot help us in doing the crossing.The crossing is done by ourselves alone.

When with the help of these 3 experiences are crossing into the state of dharmata into the changeless state , the state of dharmata introduces itself to us through our merit alone.The "direct introduction" takes place at this moment.And at that moment of confrontation we are alone.

[C T]

It is indispensable but not for the reason of being directly introduced to the state of dharmata but for the purpose of helping us generate experiences of clarity , emptiness and pleasure.These are perfect bridges to the state of dharmata.The recognition of the state of dharmata is only done by ourselves and the guru in that specific moment has no role at all.If we want to cross a river and we dont know where the bridge is the guru can help create the conditions so we can locate the bridge but he cannot help us in doing the crossing.The crossing is done by ourselves alone.

When with the help of these 3 experiences are crossing into the state of dharmata into the changeless state , the state of dharmata introduces itself to us through our merit alone.The "direct introduction" takes place at this moment.And at that moment of confrontation we are alone.

That sums up the indispensable role of the guru which TI is questioning Jax on. 

 

I do get what you are saying, and its ok too but one needs care not to allow pride and arrogance to seep in with such a mindset. There is much emphasis on guru yoga in Vajrayana as a whole. Devotion is largely responsible for sustaining the bridge that you mentioned above. 

 

Thank you for the added clarity. 

[Jax]

Experiencesare not the issue. They are only distractions. Wisdom insights regarding the empty nature of all phenomena including the seeker, is what the Buddha taught.

[Jax]

You are Just a Passing "Me" Thought and "Me" Sensation

 

If you sit in a comfortable meditation posture, back straight; on a sitting cushion or chair, place your eyes a few feet or a meter in front, on a point or object on the floor.

 

At first just notice your natural breathing pattern for several minutes.

 

Next take the mental position of simply watching your passing thoughts, passing images, passing emotions, passing feelings, passing sensations and passing perceptions. Don't engage or develop any of them. Don't daydream. Stay attentive to the five senses. Just observe like a disinterested video camera.

 

Do just this for several days over several sessions of at least one half hour at a sitting session. When you are able to just sit like a mirror without getting lost in the thoughts, daydreaming and emotions for at least fifteen minutes, then go to the next step:

 

Now do the same meditation practice but now also focus occasionally on noticing the passing sensation of being a localized "me" as the observer of the passing mental traffic as described above. Do this for a week.

 

What is being observed in body and mind are the passing "objects". What is observing the objects is the passing subjective sense of "me" as an observer or there could also sometimes arise a naked, impersonal observingness without a centralized "me" as an observer.

 

The subjective sense of "I am observing my thoughts and feelings" is also a passing thought object. When that thought ceases for a moment, then observing is occurring but without a "you" there. This would be like a newborn baby observing its perceptual field with no self-consciousness acting as a middle man or defined "observer".

 

Practice like this for several weeks gradually increasing the sitting time, but also read this entire instruction daily, immediately during short 10 minute breaks between practice sessions.

 

Eventually an impersonal, non-dual observingness will be the locus of experience. The "me" will arise from time to time, but no longer as "who you are", but rather as a mere passing thought and feeling that can be observed. This heralds the breaking of the mind's identification with an imaginary "me" or self. Besides this dis--identification there is no further liberation possible or necessary. That personal "me" is the karmic self that arises as a mere hallucination until seen directly to be such.

[Tibetan_Ice]

You are Just a Passing "Me" Thought and "Me" Sensation

 

If you sit in a comfortable meditation posture, back straight; on a sitting cushion or chair, place your eyes a few feet or a meter in front, on a point or object on the floor.

 

At first just notice your natural breathing pattern for several minutes.

 

Next take the mental position of simply watching your passing thoughts, passing images, passing emotions, passing feelings, passing sensations and passing perceptions. Don't engage or develop any of them. Don't daydream. Stay attentive to the five senses. Just observe like a disinterested video camera.

 

Do just this for several days over several sessions of at least one half hour at a sitting session. When you are able to just sit like a mirror without getting lost in the thoughts, daydreaming and emotions for at least fifteen minutes, then go to the next step:

 

Now do the same meditation practice but now also focus occasionally on noticing the passing sensation of being a localized "me" as the observer of the passing mental traffic as described above. Do this for a week.

 

What is being observed in body and mind are the passing "objects". What is observing the objects is the passing subjective sense of "me" as an observer or there could also sometimes arise a naked, impersonal observingness without a centralized "me" as an observer.

 

The subjective sense of "I am observing my thoughts and feelings" is also a passing thought object. When that thought ceases for a moment, then observing is occurring but without a "you" there. This would be like a newborn baby observing its perceptual field with no self-consciousness acting as a middle man or defined "observer".

 

Practice like this for several weeks gradually increasing the sitting time, but also read this entire instruction daily, immediately during short 10 minute breaks between practice sessions.

 

Eventually an impersonal, non-dual observingness will be the locus of experience. The "me" will arise from time to time, but no longer as "who you are", but rather as a mere passing thought and feeling that can be observed. This heralds the breaking of the mind's identification with an imaginary "me" or self. Besides this dis--identification there is no further liberation possible or necessary. That personal "me" is the karmic self that arises as a mere hallucination until seen directly to be such.

What exactly do you mean by "there is no further liberation possible or necessary."?

Are you saying that enlightenment is the dis-identification from the conceptually formed "me" ?

And are you saying that this realization produces all the siddhis including rainbow body therefore "there is no further liberation possible or necessary."?

[Tibetan_Ice]

Jax, you aren't going to answer my questions, are you?

You've implied that this practice "liberates" but you are missing a step, the breakthrough.

Sure you can realize that the "me" is a conceptual conglomeration constructed by the mind from memories, thoughts, dependant origination, but in order to attain liberation you have to cut through to rigpa. Otherwise, you are like a marmot basking in the sun, sitting there in your alaya-vijinana going nowhere.

Further, Buddha never taught "no-self", he taught "not-self".

Edited July 5, 2016 by Tibetan_Ice

[Tibetan_Ice]

Jax,

What you have done is replace the "self" with "no-self" and are clinging and grasping at that.

Anyone whom says that "there is no one there to become enlightened" has fallen victim to replacing one concept with another.

[allinone]

Don't make up any methods or ways or follow anyones instructions. Mahayana instructions are noninstructions, if you try to follow them you are doing it wrongly. Basics is to get the mahayana logic.

[silent thunder]

why seek externally for what is already present within?

[ChiForce]

What exactly do you mean by "there is no further liberation possible or necessary."?

Are you saying that enlightenment is the dis-identification from the conceptually formed "me" ?

And are you saying that this realization produces all the siddhis including rainbow body therefore "there is no further liberation possible or necessary."?

No, it can not because there are countless of ME in others, in other sentient beings.  There are external phenomena in which the mind hasn't been able to discern correctly...to see the Dharma inherent in all things, not just your little ego self.      

[taoguy]

I think people have it the reverse... You're supposed to realize the Dharmakaya first before cultivating the Nirmanakaya/Sambhogakaya, because they arise from the Dharmakaya.

 

The five skandhas cannot reach the Dharmakaya, like how there's no mirror and the dust of the skandhas cannot even find a place to land on, like clouds in a sky.

 

The seventh binding consciousness (ego) is the one that thinks that there is a mirror to be polished... but this itself is impermanent and dies upon death of the body.