Non-Gradual Dzogchen

[Jax]

If you want to know and "practice" original Dzogchen as it was meant to be presented, please purchase all of Chris's books as displayed on his Amazon page. These are all new first time translations of Dzogchen's most profound and earliest teachings.

 

What you will read is quite shocking and revelatory as the Dzogchen view is brought into clear focus. It cuts to shreds any notion of a "gradual path" or need for practice and effort.

 

Chris has captured the essence in his translations of what Dzogchen was intended to convey; immediate enlightenment and release!

 

May all beings prosper!

 

http://www.amazon.com/Christopher-Wilkinson/e/B00KINMI22

[roger]

If you want to know and "practice" original Dzogchen as it was meant to be presented, please purchase all of Chris's books as displayed on his Amazon page. These are all new first time translations of Dzogchen's most profound and earliest teachings.

 

What you will read is quite shocking and revelatory as the Dzogchen view is brought into clear focus. It cuts to shreds any notion of a "gradual path" or need for practice and effort.

 

Chris has captured the essence in his translations of what Dzogchen was intended to convey; immediate enlightenment and release!

 

May all beings prosper!

 

http://www.amazon.com/Christopher-Wilkinson/e/B00KINMI22

 

Jax, I understand your teaching about immediate enlightenment and release. Only (and this must seem like a total contradiction) it took me a lot of time to achieve it! lol

 

It's just the fact that there's no problem, there's nothing wrong, and there's no need for understandings other than what one already has.

 

Whatever people are doing is ALREADY sufficient, already good enough.

 

It's a letting go that doesn't require effort, just the simple understanding that there's nowhere to "get to" and one's choices are sufficient already.

 

It's difficult to put into words, and must be experienced to be understood, as I'm sure you know.

Edited June 18, 2016 by roger

[gatito]

Thanks for pointing to these translations Jax!

 

I'm always fascinated by the clarity and simplicity of the Direct Path.
 
From Secret Sky: The Ancient Tantras on Vajrasattva's Magnificent Sky
 

The Tantras of Vajrasattva’s Magnificent Sky, also known as the Unfailing Royal Insignia, come to us in manuscript traditions, books copied through the centuries, from Tibet and Bhutan. The texts are translations attributed to Vairochana, a famous translator of the eighth century, a Tibetan who went to India in search of the literature on instantaneous enlightenment, found it, and brought it back to Tibet. The original Indian texts have been lost in time.

 

 

How do these teachings fit into the Buddhist tradition? Generally speaking, the vast array of the Buddha’s teachings is divided up in many different ways, depending on the objectives of different schools and individuals. We often hear of the division between the Hinayana and the Mahayana, where a concern for personal liberation characterizes the first and an enlightened attitude based on great compassion for all sentient beings characterizes the latter. We hear of a division between the approach of the Sutras and the approach of the Tantras, where the first represents the practical approach of a gradual search for enlightenment through the development of generosity, rules, patience, perseverance, meditation, and wisdom, while the approach of the Tantras is usually based on a deity yoga in which special methods are employed in the hope of rapid enlightenment. The Tantras of the Magnificent Sky belong to a special class of Tantra, the Great Perfection, which does not employ deity yoga, rejects practices of visualization, and recommends instantaneous enlightenment. For those who follow the Ancient Traditions of Tibetan Buddhism, the Nyingma, this is the highest and most profound Buddhist teaching. The schools of Buddhism in Tibet that are known as the New Schools, or Sarma, did not recognize the instantaneous approach as a true Buddhist teaching. The primary difference in opinion is that the New Schools insist that our progress toward enlightenment is a gradual process, while the Great Perfection teaches that enlightenment is instantaneous. We might say that while all the other pathways offered by Buddhism teach about becoming enlightened, the Great Perfection teaches about being enlightened. The Tantras of the Magnificent Sky are profound expressions of this approach.

 

We have reason to believe that the authenticity of the Magnificent Sky Tantras was in doubt, even in Vairochana's lifetime. In the closing comments of The Sun of my Heart: a Hearty Elixir for Panditas and Siddhas, while speaking of The Magnificent Sky, Vairochana states:

 

This has no resemblance to what Universal Monarchs or teachers like Sakyamuni have taught. An investigation that will approve of or refute the ocean of upadesa on the Unfailing Royal Insignia, which is the heart transmission of the All Good Garab, does not disturb my mind. I hope this will be a lamp for those whose fortune it is to see things partially.

 

(My bolding and underlining.)

[ralis]

Jax, I understand your teaching about immediate enlightenment and release. Only (and this must seem like a total contradiction) it took me a lot of time to achieve it! lol

 

It's just the fact that there's no problem, there's nothing wrong, and there's no need for understandings other than what one already has.

 

Whatever people are doing is ALREADY sufficient, already good enough.

 

It's a letting go that doesn't require effort, just the simple understanding that there's nowhere to "get to" and one's choices are sufficient already.

 

It's difficult to put into words, and must be experienced to be understood, as I'm sure you know.

 

I hardly agree that Dzogchen is about 'letting go'. Norbu describes it as liberating into its own nature or energy.

[thelerner]

Jax, could give me a brief outline of what your practice is like and how it feels?  I don't have a good notion of what Dzogchen practice entails, other then sitting with concentration.  Or if you have a link that explains that talks about it. 

 

Also the Amazon link in the OP isn't working for me. 

Edited June 18, 2016 by thelerner

[ralis]

Jax, could give me a brief outline of what your practice is like and how it feels?  I don't have a good notion of what Dzogchen practice entails, other then sitting with concentration.  Or if you have a link that explains that talks about it. 

 

Also the Amazon link in the OP isn't working for me. 

 

Here is a good place to start. Norbu compares and contrasts very well.

 

[DiamondEyE]

I can't take the op serious, it's basically stating all are cig car ba.

Only cig car ba is Prahe Vajra, and possibly Saraha.

[Apech]

I can't take the op serious, it's basically stating all are cig car ba.

Only cig car ba is Prahe Vajra, and possibly Saraha.

 

 

All explained clearly here https://www.academia.edu/7818905/Clear_Meaning_Studies_on_a_Thirteenth_Century_rDzogs-chen_Text

[ralis]

I can't take the op serious, it's basically stating all are cig car ba.

Only cig car ba is Prahe Vajra, and possibly Saraha.

 

Could you write that in English please. Your writing style can be unnerving. Unless English is not your native language.

 

I just looked up the terms you are using and mixing languages does not make for a smooth discussion here. BTW, this is not an academic discussion, but one of helping/informing one another.

Edited June 19, 2016 by ralis

[DiamondEyE]

I'm really just sharing with no grudge, I cherish all teachings. I will differently use my friendly words and try to be more clear.

[Jetsun]

I can't take the op serious, it's basically stating all are cig car ba.

Only cig car ba is Prahe Vajra, and possibly Saraha.

Huh?

[ralis]

Huh?

I thought he was talking about a cigar.

[DiamondEyE]

Huh?

I don't take the original post seriously because,

1) It says to practice the non- gradual path one has to read all these books in order to effortlessly not practice.

 

2)By reading said text that would lead to "immediate" enlightenment.

 

So I doubt this because we are so habituated. And to think after being directly introduced to knowledge of wisdom of our own mind one time, we will pass all the stages into complete buddhahood without remainder before the blink of an eye, doesn't make sense to me.

 

A cig car ba or instaneous realizer, directly sees there own wisdom and NEVER becomes under the influence of habitual thoughts, passions etc again and is a Buddha without remainder.

 

The only cig car bas I have heard about in history are Garab Dorje/ Prahe Vajra who is the First teacher of the Ati Yoga on this planet, and Saraha of Sahaja Mahamudra.

 

 

Of course if there are others who become buddhas without remainder in faster than the blink of an eye honestly I don't know. Maybe the poster is a cig car ba, so they wouldn't need to practice thodgal or londe, I don't know.

 

I'm just sharing, I could be wrong, this is just another post.

 

Best wishes.

Edited June 20, 2016 by DiamondEyE

[Jetsun]

I don't take the original post seriously because,

1) It says to practice the non- gradual path one has to read all these books in order to effortlessly not practice.

 

2)By reading said text that would lead to "immediate" enlightenment.

 

So I doubt this because we are so habituated. And to think after being directly introduced to knowledge of wisdom of our own mind one time, we will pass all the stages into complete buddhahood without remainder before the blink of an eye, doesn't make sense to me.

 

A cig car ba or instaneous realizer, directly sees there own wisdom and NEVER becomes under the influence of habitual thoughts, passions etc again and is a Buddha without remainder.

 

The only cig car bas I have heard about in history are Garab Dorje/ Prahe Vajra who is the First teacher of the Ati Yoga on this planet, and Saraha of Sahaja Mahamudra.

 

 

Of course if there are others who become buddhas without remainder in faster than the blink of an eye honestly I don't know. Maybe the poster is a cig car ba, so they wouldn't need to practice thodgal or londe, I don't know.

 

I'm just sharing, I could be wrong, this is just another post.

 

Best wishes.

 

Ah ok I get what you mean. About the only person who I would consider being an instantaneous realizer without remainder is probably Ramana Maharshi, as his transformation and realisation was so dramatic and complete he seemingly didn't have to do very much to overcome any thoughts or negative tendencies after his shift, yet even he had to spend three years in seclusion afterwards to assimilate and get used to it

[Tibetan_Ice]

Bad reviews of Chris Wilkinson's abilities and erudition...

 

http://www.vajracakra.com/viewtopic.php?f=57&t=2049

[ralis]

Bad reviews of Chris Wilkinson's abilities and erudition...

 

http://www.vajracakra.com/viewtopic.php?f=57&t=2049

 

Those reviews were baseless and anecdotal.

[Tibetan_Ice]

I received the book yesterday and read some of it and well... I don't know. In parts it looks good and in parts really strange. Sometimes it seems like the translator didn't even consider whether the sentence makes any sense or not. Google translate came to mind sometimes... However I suppose some of the strangeness could be due to the Tibetan text itself being written in such a way. Part of it is perhaps because of the mistakes in Tibetan text (there are a lot of them if I recall correctly?). :shrug

 

And the use of "planetary influence" is simply mind boggling, if Ratna hadn't pointed it out I'd be left scratching my head as to what in the world the text is talking about.

 

Has anyone read his translations of the three tantras? Thoughts? I didn't get them yet and after looking at this am not sure I want to.

 

And

 

I bought the Vairochana book and I am very disappointed. As someone who was a professional translator for 25 years, this is, IMO, a very poor translation. I would not recommend it to anyone. Further, the fact that Wilkinson has published it himself should've been a tip-off for me. Everyone needs an editor (and a professional proofreader) if not also peer review. This is a great example of knowing the words, but not really grokking the meaning. Too many non-sensical grammatical constructions show he has not really internalized the material. People in the 8th century, especially realized people, were not unintelligible. All this goes to show the importance of translators of Dzogchen having both a knowledge of the departure language, extra special abilities in writing the arrival language, AND some degree of realization.

 

Sorry, this is just my POV.

 

 

[ralis]

TI,

 

Those are only two opinions and since I haven't read his books, I have no critique at this time. Have you read his books?

[Tibetan_Ice]

TI,

 

Those are only two opinions and since I haven't read his books, I have no critique at this time. Have you read his books?

I was going to buy some but after reading the reviews, previews and comments I am not that interested anymore.

The terminology wilkinson uses is not conventional... For example, he says ignorance "adulterates" the Dharmakaya.

And yes, some of the sentences in the preview are incomprehensible.

It is also strange to see someone say that the Great Perfection is entirely different from the conventional understanding from mahamudra. I don't believe in " instant enlightenment "... Not without having spent many previous lives practising and striving.

So far the most interesting book for me has been "Mahamudra-the Moonlight" for a good exposition of the Great Perfection.

[rex]

The thing about tantras is that commentary may be needed to understand them. Even Tibetan teachers find some tantras inscrutable.

 

I quite like the look of The Gods and Demons Are Not Two. 

 

There's been some discussion on it here: reddit discussion

 

[CelibacySeeker]

If you want to know and "practice" original Dzogchen as it was meant to be presented, please purchase all of Chris's books as displayed on his Amazon page. These are all new first time translations of Dzogchen's most profound and earliest teachings.

 

What you will read is quite shocking and revelatory as the Dzogchen view is brought into clear focus. It cuts to shreds any notion of a "gradual path" or need for practice and effort.

 

Chris has captured the essence in his translations of what Dzogchen was intended to convey; immediate enlightenment and release!

 

May all beings prosper!

 

http://www.amazon.com/Christopher-Wilkinson/e/B00KINMI22

Everybody talks about non gradual dzogchen and enlightenmen, but I do not see any people realizing that. It's cheap marketing. Non gradual things are only for beings who are ready for it and ripe enough to just get a click into realization. You selling people dream not even being realized and enlightenment, where are siddhis, rainbows and all that fantastic things which true genuine dzogchen practitioners had? Nowhere. Do not take me wrong, I really respesct all works, translations, spiritual things but this is just selling people dreams, obviously those people are interested more in money then in realization. That's is bootleg dzogchen. What is your and other experience who practice dzogchen? What is state of being? free of suffering life and death? Those quasi-dzogchen teaching which are over intellectualized actually make people cheat themselves. Dzogchen is pure prajna. 

 

Most of people need to face it, you need a lot of work to be done, a lot of discipline and a lot of practice with very less time. 

[already]

 

 

Whatever people are doing is ALREADY sufficient, already good enough.

 

 

I Already, agree with with the fact that what people are doing is Already sufficient.

[already]

If you want to know and "practice" original Dzogchen as it was meant to be presented, please purchase all of Chris's books as displayed on his Amazon page. These are all new first time translations of Dzogchen's most profound and earliest teachings.

 

What you will read is quite shocking and revelatory as the Dzogchen view is brought into clear focus. It cuts to shreds any notion of a "gradual path" or need for practice and effort.

 

Chris has captured the essence in his translations of what Dzogchen was intended to convey; immediate enlightenment and release!

 

May all beings prosper!

 

http://www.amazon.com/Christopher-Wilkinson/e/B00KINMI22

I recently came across some of his translations.

My advice is don't buy !!!

A total waste of time and money.

The translations are  so full of  nonsensical grammatical constructions that i seriously question his skill, intention and judgement as to how he concluded that such unpolished products are good enough to be published.

It is like the work of a child who knows some tibetan but doesn't know or understands enough of the target language.