Why I can't rely on Philosophy

[Jim D.]

Actually Psychology's first start was in the field of Philosophy. It has its roots in it. The reason we see the field of Psychology emerge into its own discipline was that it became a science while Philosophy remained an art form. Psychology is measureable, reliable, and verifiable. Where Philosphy is nothing more than conjecture and an exercise in futility. Existentialism is the one Philosophy that gets close to the field of Psychology in that it is used in therapy for low to moderately depessed clients. The issue for these clients is that they have lost the "how" of their existence and traded it in for the "why" of their existence which causes the depression they are feeling. Philosophy has never helped in my experience and the experience of others albeit case studies in helping  lower, resolve, or eliminate depressive symptoms.

 

Imagin your presenting for treatment for let's say alcohol dependency, and I give you a Philosophical Theory enttled "How do I know I exist?" What??????? that person would respond, and then high tail it out of my office not ever to return. But if I take a good history asking questions about the why's and wherefores of their presenting problem, and let them get it all out (over time) then the recovery of that person's integrity and congruent self will be achieved by the person's wanting to get away from the pain they have caused themselvesthrough the choices they made along the way. And these choices were made to resolve a problem with living with themselves and others on life's terms. People have thinking problems which turn into living problems. That is how it is that Freud's theory was not practical. He thought if you discovered what the problem was through analysis, the problem would go away. Nooooot? The individual still has to deprogram their faulty thinking...through introspection and midfulness, and then continue to practice the inteventions they learned to keep it in remission. Philosophy goes on ad finitum with no end to its postulations, intellectualizations and self serving endeavors.

 

I don't think that I would want to Philosophize my reentry into the Earth's atmosphere...or philosophize the outcome of my brain surgery.

 

JD

[Marblehead]

But on the other hand, if you live a good life based on a sound philosophy you will never need a psychiatrist.

[Eques Peregrinus]

Do not forget there is a clear difference between modern and classic philosophy. And this is not a small difference, this is a rift, they are far more apart than many philosophers might want to admit.

 

If we look into the classics, like Pythagoras, Plato or Aristotle, we have a cosmological view, a discourse on the organisation of the world (which includes the soul), and mystical practices which are sometimes outlined or hinted.

 

If we look into the moderns (I suppose you were speaking about them), they are generally over intellectualising, sometime sending venom to other philosophers with which they disagree (Voltaire), or use overcomplicated sentences to show their intellect (Kant).

 

As for psychologists, there are interesting theories, although I prefer the various classical discourse about the soul.

 

Also: psychologist != psychiatrist

[Jim D.]

This is the question I have been trying to elicit from the philosophers in Doe Bums. How's that working for you in terms of long last personal relationships, health problems, fiancial problems, subsance use and abuse, legal entanglements etc.

 

A psychologist is someone who studies mental processes and human behaviour by observing, interpreting, and recording how people relate to one another and the environment. Some psychologists work independently, doing research or working only with patients or clients. Others work as part of a healthcare team, collaborating with physicians, social workers, and others to treat illness and promote overall wellness.

 

Psychiatry is a medical specialty that involves the treatment of mental disorders. Psychiatrists are physicians who evaluate, diagnose and treat patients who are affected by a temporary or chronic mental health problem.

 

Licensed professional counselors are master's-degreed mental health service providers, trained to work with individuals, families, and groups in treating mental, behavioral, and emotional problems and disorders. This is what I do and have done since 1992.

 

I would not dare to debate the conception with a suicidal patient. Modern or Classical Philosophy is meaningless to distressed individual.

 

How does one define a good life for themselves? Can they really say it is their life to begin with. Does the individual own the life that they are living? Where is it bought and sold? Who is selling it? These are philosophical questions that could be questioned by the individual. There is an answer and it is personal for all of us. But "my life" is not tangible.

 

JD

[Marblehead]

Okay.  I will reply to only the philosophical side of this discussion.

 

You asked:

 

How's that working for you in terms of long last personal relationships, health problems, fiancial problems, subsance use and abuse, legal entanglements etc.

 

I don't have any of those problems.  I actually have only one long term personal relationship; we are very different types of people but we have enough in common to allow for a true and honest friendship.

 

Except for old age I have no serious health problems.  Sure, I could live more healthily but I don't.

 

I made sure my finances were in order before fully retiring.

 

I don't use drugs or alcohol (except I do enjoy a glass of wine now and then).

 

I am not legally entangled.  There will be a fight for my assets after I die but I doubt I will care.

 

 

In your last paragraph you asked:

 

How does one define a good life for themselves? Can they really say it is their life to begin with. Does the individual own the life that they are living? Where is it bought and sold? Who is selling it?

 

For me, a good life is having inner "peace and contentment".  Sure, there will be external conflicts that must be resolved but that should never effect our inner essence.

 

Yes, I have a life.  I have lived horribly and well.  I prefer living well.  I stopped doing most of the things that caused horrible results.

 

No, we don't own our life.  But we must live it.  Cause and effect can take our life away at any given moment.  So we care for it and live it as best we can until that given moment arrives.

 

Yes, many people sell themselves into slavery.  It is the choice they made.  But they had free will and had the option to not sell.

 

There is a saying that anyone can be bought or sold if the price is right.  But I suggest that there are exceptions.  For one who has attained "peace and contentment", selling that would never be a question.  It is something beyond value.

[Karl]

I should point out that I have already had this discussion with Jim D in PM which I politely declined to continue which appeared to upset Jim.

 

What appears to be misunderstood is that everyone IS using philosophy in this discussion, it is unavoidable, we all use philosophy whether we consciously understand where we have obtained those ideas or not.

 

Philosophy and science are linked. Science is the result of philosophy-directly. It was Aristotle that created the logical process required for the birth of science and philosophy also inspires research within the philosophical umbrella of science.

 

One of the best speeches given on this subject was by Ayn Rand at West Point 'who needs philosophy?'. It's available on MP3 and YouTube, but this is a link to the written form.

 

 

http://fare.tunes.org/liberty/library/pwni.html

Edited June 19, 2016 by Karl

[dust]

Philosophy is psychology; psychology is spirituality. And sometimes, spirituality is religion.

 

A 'good' philosophy or religion offers helpful guidelines for how to live, how to be, how and where to focus one's energy, etc. It might help one to see the world in a new light, heal one's mental issues, learn to live in society, more easily manage day-to-day living, learn to accept death, and so on.

 

We each choose our own, though. There is no single Islam, no single Buddhism.

 

Your Daoism might be more like a religion where mine might be more like a philosophy;

his Buddhism might be more like philosophy where hers might be more like psychology;

Judy's Christianity might be more spiritual than Bill's Islam;

Rico's "spirituality" might be less helpful than Xiaoyu's faith.

 

When I see people arguing over it all, I can't help but think that none of them have found a helpful method.

Me included, sometimes..

[Karl]

Having a philosophy is no guarantee of anything, the important thing is for it to be integrated-to contain as few conflicts as possible and to continually challenge its conceptions.

 

Where am I ? How do I know it ? What should I do ?

 

These are the questions a persons philosophy should answer.

[sagebrush]

insert image of a dragonfly-

 

because no one here knows-

 

gently alight on the stem of no reason

 

tiny intricacies, patterns

 

freedom of flight of fancy

 

big big eyes

Edited June 19, 2016 by sagebrush

[sagebrush]

or why can't I rely on philosophy---because all these thoughts come and go.

 

even IF they are really GOOD ones.

[sagebrush]

Jim D--

 

I have had experience having appointments with a psychologist.

 

So I heard in a nutshell that basically I rent their good habits.......thought that was funny

 

My psychologist was an angel. She still may be an angel but I don't go to her anymore. I moved out of the state

 

and my issue was a relationship that was difficult to deal with----not sure why I tolerated it from this perspective here now.

 

I had not learned to walk away-which is powerful. I used that technique in the relationship that followed.

[Michael Sternbach]

I was working as an alternative therapist together with a psychiatrist for a fairly long time, and it was frequently most natural and appropriate to talk about philosophical questions with the patients seeking a way to live a more balanced and happier life. This was also (and especially!) true for patients with suicidal tendencies.

 

Philosophy in my understanding is anything but an abstract matter with no relevance for day to day living, it is the very foundation of how we deal with our experiences and the decisions we make. But you need to understand yourself both what philosophies you are unwittingly following, and how to translate philosophical tenets into practical living in order to help your patients on this level.

 

The openness, sensitivity and world view of the individuals you are treating must be carefully taken into account. Often, my familiarity with a variety of philosophical and spiritual approaches enables me to choose the particular language that the person in question is susceptible to.

[sagebrush]

I am susceptible to wherever I have placed my attention over the years---

 

so inserting the word chi-

although not unheard of,

just not in synergistic alignment with my femurs.

 

(:-)

 

lots to learn when the winds are not blowing

 

I think my philosophy is Beatnik---

gone hindu

running from yang-shame-blame

nesting in energetic effects of yoga

learning the manuals daily.

[WisteriaWinds]

Psychology is measureable, reliable, and verifiable.

 

JD

To be fair, not really. Psychology tends to try to measure constructs. For example, self esteem. Look at any peer-reviewed journal article on self esteem and you'll see the methods include measuring things which are assumed to indicate the presence of self esteem. So the existence of the thing being studied is presupposed. This is common throughout the domain of the philosophy of psychology.

[Michael Sternbach]

Psychology is measureable, reliable, and verifiable.

Lots of difficulties there. It has not even been possible to prove that any of the classical psychotherapies actually work.

[Jim D.]

You are both right. In spite of the therapist, people get better because of the curative factors experienced (see Yalom Curative Factors). It is in the relationship with others that people get better. I firmly tell my clients that it is in the relationship between them and me that makes themselves feel better about themselves. Of course, a therapist has to have done the work on themselves to help others...otherwise the therapist is only operating from a book, or theory. That is how it is that I don't trust therapist in general because they tend to mess up their clients because they have not fixed their character defects, shortcomings, and Personality traits that get in the way through transference and projection. Most therapist do not have Supevision. Look at Tony Soprono's therapist, and the relationship she had with her Supervising therapist. Remember when she was starting to hae feelings for Tony. Believe it, it happens more than you think. Who did she go to...her Supervisoring therapist.  But did she follow his advise...No! :-)

 

JD

[Karl]

Lots of difficulties there. It has not even been possible to prove that any of the classical psychotherapies actually work.

One day it might become a serious science.

[Jim D.]

Actually, Psychology does employ scientific metodology to test hypotheses using this model:

 

 the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment.

 

Look at our Anti-depressants and anti-anxiety medications that are available to us now. These came about through longatudinal studies that were carefully controled for independent and dependent variables that might have influenced the outcome e.g. double blind, single blind, placbo affect, experimentor bias, control group. experimental group, random assignment of individuals participating in the study. Then there were other experimenters that ran their own study if there was a question about the initial study's outcome. Then there is the FDA that gets into the mix before it is approved.

 

In my own practice, I account for several dimensions that could possibly influence the affect of the individual I am helping. One of them is Bio/medical conditions. I want to know if there are any Rx that could be causing this person's depression outside of cognitive reasons. For example, if a woman is on birth control, the Rx she is taking could cause depressive symptoms. So, I need to rule that out etc.

 

JD

 

[Karl]

Psychology is still at a very early stage of a science. Philosophy should be understood as the science which underpins all sciences. Think of it as a substrate in which the other sciences grow. You wouldn't use philosophy to cure a mental illness, build a bridge, or make a computer; yet without philosophy none of those things would be possible.

[Marblehead]

or why can't I rely on philosophy---because all these thoughts come and go.

 

even IF they are really GOOD ones.

 

Therein lies a problem.  We are supposed to be living the life of our philosophy, not just reading the words.

[Jim D.]

Karl,

 

If you are defining Philosophy as an idea, concept, question, hypothesis than I would agree with you.

 

I would ask you and others, what would you call a Philosophy that is ever changing, insubstantial enough to allow for conclusion but open enough to say, based on the data I have today, this it is what it is. But given even more data tomorrow on the same subject that I was sure of yesterday which became today, I give myself the luxury of changing my mind about that which I was so sure of yesterday, today?

 

JD

[Karl]

Karl,

 

If you are defining Philosophy as an idea, concept, question, hypothesis than I would agree with you.

 

I would ask you and others, what would you call a Philosophy that is ever changing, insubstantial enough to allow for conclusion but open enough to say, based on the data I have today, this it is what it is. But given even more data tomorrow on the same subject that I was sure of yesterday which became today, I give myself the luxury of changing my mind about that which I was so sure of yesterday, today?

 

JD

Philosophy is always changing. The point is not that it changes, but that you are consciously aware of what your current philosophy is and that it is coherent. A philosophy is your total world view. It informs every thought and action. As I said previously: where am I ? How do I know it ? What should I do ?

 

The Ancient Greek philosophers causes the age of reason when science overcame mysticism, now we are going backwards. We have stopped reasoning logically and are sinking back into mysticism. This is the result of philosophers such as Kant, Decartes and Hegel. We are in an age of pragmatism and scientism. In such an age one may as well trust in tea leaves and fairy dust to guide ones decisions. Philosophy has led us here and only philosophy can lead us out.

Edited June 20, 2016 by Karl

[Jim D.]

Karl,

 

The reason I cannot talk about my Philosophy is because I don't believe I have one to talk about, because it is not that important to me. The I that would respond to your questions would give you answeres learned from others. That I has been influenced by the outside. The I that I have seen and experienced is timeless. It just listens to the "now" of my life...the "now" that I met when I got up this morning and started living.

 

The upset part of me is my ego saying to me, he/she cannot disrespect me with preceived condensendtion or patronization. But if I were in the timeless I, your words would have never hurt me which was under the anger and upset I felt.

 

So, If I were to guess, my Philosophy is a dynamic that continually changes based on the data I receive today. But this Philosophy is only useful for me when I need to problem solve a delimma. Otherwise, I just watch and listen, and try to stay in the moment. To characterize it any other way would make my Philosophy stagnant.

 

I apologize for my childish "sandbox" behavior at our last conversation...you can't say goodbey to me without my getting the last word in, and it's going to be hurtful. See, even this Professional is flawed. That's O.K. That's what makes me approachable and trustworthy.

 

This is how it is that I always have now to start all over again with an amends.

 

JD

[Karl]

Karl,

 

The reason I cannot talk about my Philosophy is because I don't believe I have one to talk about, because it is not that important to me. The I that would respond to your questions would give you answeres learned from others. That I has been influenced by the outside. The I that I have seen and experienced is timeless. It just listens to the "now" of my life...the "now" that I met when I got up this morning and started living.

 

The upset part of me is my ego saying to me, he/she cannot disrespect me with preceived condensendtion or patronization. But if I were in the timeless I, your words would have never hurt me which was under the anger and upset I felt.

 

So, If I were to guess, my Philosophy is a dynamic that continually changes based on the data I receive today. But this Philosophy is only useful for me when I need to problem solve a delimma. Otherwise, I just watch and listen, and try to stay in the moment. To characterize it any other way would make my Philosophy stagnant.

 

I apologize for my childish "sandbox" behavior at our last conversation...you can't say goodbey to me without my getting the last word in, and it's going to be hurtful. See, even this Professional is flawed. That's O.K. That's what makes me approachable and trustworthy.

 

This is how it is that I always have now to start all over again with an amends.

 

JD

I understood which is why I had to end the conversation last time.

 

'Living in the now' is a philosophy, but is that really how you think ? Why is it necessary to argue with me if things are really only in the moment for you ? A conflict occurs between what you think you can do and what you actually do. Every persons philosophy evolves, but most treat what they learn like a cow munching through a field of grass. Somehow it all just happens and it seems automatic, but it isn't. Every conception has to be stored and integrated actively. Most people don't even realise what they are consuming, they give it very little thought and shove it into a big ball of gunk. The problem is that if you never think about what you are consuming, then the result his a hotch potch which doesn't work too well, this leads to self doubt.

 

You realised this when you said that you weren't living in the moment and that's why you reacted to me. I had the same experience several years ago when I was meditating and doing practices. I kept noticing that I felt a certain way and believed if I just accepted myself feeling this certain way then I could stop fighting. It worked for a while and everything was calm, but then the doubts resurfaced and I realised that living in the now was a fools errand. Enjoy the moment of course, but to live like an animal is impossible for a man, we have to think even if we wish sometimes that it was unnecessary. It's possible to evade for a time, but reality comes knocking.

[Michael Sternbach]

Psychology is still at a very early stage of a science. Philosophy should be understood as the science which underpins all sciences. Think of it as a substrate in which the other sciences grow. You wouldn't use philosophy to cure a mental illness, build a bridge, or make a computer; yet without philosophy none of those things would be possible.

 

One day, philosophy and all the other sciences will unite: When it will be understood that the same principles govern each level of existence, from macrocosm to microcosm, from spirit to mind, and so on. The Hermeticists and Daoists realized this long ago.