Chuang-Tzu

[Jim D.]

I am in Chapter 1 pages 25 - 30, The Happy Excursion and need help understanding what is being said here.

 

The book I am reading out of is A Taoist Classic Chuang-Tzu Foreign Languages Press, Bejing China 1989.

 

Thanks,

 

JD

[Marblehead]

I'm ready to respond.  I will likely use Burton Watson's translation.

 

Please state your question.  I will ask if I feel the question needs to be clarified or broken down into smaller pieces.

 

 

PS  There is a study of the Chuang Tzu about to begin and I am sure this study will help many who are interested in Chuang Tzu.

Edited June 25, 2016 by Marblehead

[Jim D.]

He talks about:

 

Peng

The Celestial Lake

Small Knowledge compared with the great nor a short life to a long life

The quail laughing at peng because peng expends so much more effort in getting where he wants to go.

 

The paragraph that begins with "The Universe is the general name of all things. pg. 30

 

I think I need to re-read pages 27 - 30. I don't expect you to read it for me, but will need some clarification. I think I get that Chuang-Tzu is using examples in nature to show the reader, student, disciple how each thing in nature is right where and how it is suppose to be.

 

There was a psychologist named Fritz Pearl who advised men to behuman not elephants.

 

P.S. The Book of Revelations reads cryptically. I thought at first this book did also.

 

JD

[Marblehead]

Okay.  I think you have a good start. 

 

Most of the stories in The Chuang Tzu are fiction.  But, ..., within the stories are the philosophical concepts.  They aren't hidden.  But if we read only the words we might miss the concepts totally.

 

Viewing life from different perspectives was important to Chuang Tzu.  This concept runs throughout The Chuang Tzu.

 

And yes, changing the true nature of things is an important concept to Chuang Tzu.  Don't try to change the true nature of man.

[Shidifen]

I think you can get a really good grounding in Zhuangzi's philosophical thinking by reading chapter 17, Autumn Floods.

 

Here's a link to a paper titled "Animal Analogy in the Zhuangzi", which goes into good detail about some of the stories involving animal characters.

 

http://eastasian.virginia.edu/sites/eastasian.virginia.edu/files/Murray%20DMP.pdf

 

The author of the paper also includes her translation of the Autumn Floods chapter.

 

Try reading a few different translations of the parts you're having trouble with. That helps me a lot. dawei started a great thread here - http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/41244-zhuangzi-resources/

[Daeluin]

Oh, I like this section.

There is a commentary here.

 

Hmm... I'll just repost that here.

 

There is a fish in the Northern Oblivion named Kun, and this Kun is quite huge, spanning who knows how many thousands of miles. He transforms into a bird named Peng, and this Peng has quite a back on him, stretching who knows how many thousands of miles. When he rouses himself and sours into the air, his wings are like clouds draped across the heavens. The oceans start to churn, the this bird begins his journey toward the Southern Oblivion. The Southern Oblivion - that is the Pool of Heaven.

 

The Equalizing Jokebook, a record of many wonders, reports: "When Peng journeys to the Southern Oblivion, the waters ripple for three thousand miles. Spiraling aloft, he ascends ninety thousand milds and continues his journey without rest for half a year."

 

- It's a galloping heat haze! - It's a swirl of dust! - It's some living creature blown aloft on a breath of the air! And the blue on blue of the sky - is that the sky's true color? Or is it just the vast distance, going on and on without end, that looks that way? When Peng looks down, he too sees only this and nothing more.

 

Now, if water is not piled up thickly enough, it has no power to support a large vessel. Overturn a cupful of water in a whole in the road and you can float a mustard seed in it like a boat, but if you put the cup itself in there it will just get stuck. The water is too shallow for so large a vessel. And if the wind is not piled up thickly enough, it has no power to support Peng's enormous wings. That is why he needs to put ninety thousand miles of air beneath him. Only then can he ride the wind, bearing the blue of heaven on his back and unobstructed on all sides, and bake his way south.

 

The cicada and the fledgling dove laugh at him, saying, "We scurry up into the air, leaping from the elm to the sandalwood tree, and when we don't quite make it we just plummet to the ground. What's all this about ascending ninety thousand miles and heading south?"

 

If you go out on a day trip, you can return with your belly still full. If you're traveling a hundred miles, you'll need to bring a day's meal. And if you're traveling a thousand miles, you'll need to save up provisions for three months before you go. What do these two little creatures know? A small consciousness cannot keep up with a vast consciousness; short duration cannot keep up with long duration. How do we know? The morning mushroom knows nothing of the noontide; the winter cicada knows nothing of the spiring and autumn. This is what is means by short duration. In southern Chu there is a tree called Mingling, for which five hundred years is as a single spring, and another five hundred years is a single autumn. In ancient times, there was even one massive tree whose spring and autumn were each eight thousand years long. And yet nowadays, Pengzu alone has a special reputation for longevity, and everyone tries to match him. Pathetic, isn't it?

 

Tang's questions to Ji also have something about this:

 

In the barren northland there is a dark ocean, called the Pool of Heaven. There is a fish there several thousand miles across with a length that is as yet unknown named Kun. There's a bird there named Peng with a back like Mt. Tai and wings like clouds draped across the heavens. Whorling upward, he ascends ninety thousand miles, breaking through the clouds and bearing the blue of the sky on his back, and then heads south, finally arriving at the Southern Oblivion. The quail laughs at him, saying, "Where does he thing he's Going? I leap into the air with all my might, but before I get farther than a few yards I drop to the ground. My twittering and fluttering between the bushes and branches is the utmost form of flying! So where does he thing he's going?" Such is the difference between the large and the small.

 

And he whose understanding is sufficient to fill some one post, whose deeds meet the needs of some one village, or whose Virtuosity pleases some one ruler, thus winning him a country to preside over, sees himself in just the same way. Even Song Rongzi would burst out laughing at such a man. If the whole world happened to praise Song Rongzi, he would not be goaded onward; if the whole world condemned him, he would not be deterred. He simply made a sharp and fixed division between the inner and the outer and clearly discerned where true honor and disgrace are to be found.  He did not involve himself in anxious calculations in his dealings with the world. But nonetheless, there was still a sense in which he was not yet really firmly planted.

 

Now, Liezi rode forth upon the wind, weightlessly graceful, not heading back until fifteen days had passed. He did not involve himself in anxious calculations about bringing good fortune to himself. Although this allowed him to avoid the exertions of walking, there was still something he needed to depend on.

 

But suppose you were to chariot upon what is true both to Heaven and to earth, riding atop the back-and-forth of the six atmospheric breaths, so that your wandering could nowhere be brought to a halt. You would then be depending on - what? Thus I say, the Consummate Person has no fixed identity, the Spirit Man has no particular merit, the Sage has no one name.

 

Zhuangzi, Chapter one, translation by Brook Ziporyn.

 

This is the concept of "Walking Two Roads," found in chapter two as well:

 

 

So no thing is not right, no thing is not acceptable. For whatever we may define as a beam as opposed to a pillar, as a leper as opposed the great beauty Xishi, or whatever might be [from some perspective] strange, grotesque, uncanny, or deceptive, there is some course that opens them into one another, connecting them to form a oneness. Whenever fragmentation is going on, formation, completion, is also going on. Whenever formation is going on, destruction is also going on.

 

Hence, all things are neither formed nor destroyed, for these two also open into each other, connecting to form a oneness. It is only someone who really gets all the way through them that can see how the two sides open into each other to form a oneness. Such a person would not define rightness in any one particular way but would instead entrust it to the everyday function [of each being]. Their everyday function is what works for them, and "working" just means this opening up into each other, their way of connecting. Opening to form a connection just means getting what you get: go as far as whatever you happen to get to, and leave it at that. It is all just a matter of going by the rightness of the present "this." To be doing this without knowing it, and not because you have defined it as right, is called "the Course."

 

But to labor your spirit trying to make all things one, without realizing that it is all the same [whether you do so or not], is called "Three in the Morning."

 

What is this Three in the Morning? A monkey trainer was distributing chestnuts. He said, "I'll give you three in the morning and four in the evening." The monkeys were furious. "Well then," he said, "I'll give you four in the morning and three in the evening." The monkeys were delighted. This change of description and arrangement caused no loss, but in one case it brought anger and in another delight. He just went by the rightness of their present "this." Thus the Sage uses various rights and wrongs to harmonize with others and yet remains at rest in the middle of Heaven the Potter's Wheel. This is called "Walking Two Roads."

 

This concept allows one to flow harmoniously with what is external, even while maintaining a vastly separate scope of operation on the inside. The principles found in the Dao De Jing describe how to just just that.

 

In my opinion, the tao is right there in front of us, waiting for us to listen to what it is teaching. When we flow like water, following the paths of least resistance, the tao leads us into circumstances which will challenge our egos and help us to empty. By learning to synchronize with this path of least resistance, we become harmonious within the operation of the external realm.

 

Then as we cultivate our inner realm, we are able to maintain our connection to the external realm, even as our inner scope changes and we put miles and miles of air beneath us, we remain dependent upon what is low to keep us up high. Our foundation is upon what is low, and if we do not take care to maintain it how will we not avoid damage? Many try to hide in absolute isolation, but the changing external world has many ways of catching up. Simpler to cultivate a flowing invisibility that ever merges and slips past, yielding to remain whole.

 

Thus we are able to chariot upon what is true to both Heaven and Earth, merging with the ebbs and flows of the ten thousand things, dependent only upon the operation of the dance itself, until mysteriously slipping through to what is beyond both Heaven and Earth.

 

Those who focus on the infinite are well to be reminded it ever includes and depends upon the mundane.

[Jim D.]

Looking at through the eyes of an average person, if I do not face and address the negativity within me, than I will never have the spirituality needed to see those things which transcend the Self.

[Marblehead]

That's quite a statement! 

 

And, if our mind is clouded we will never see reality (the objective) clearly.

 

Like the story of the tea cup being full.

[Jim D.]

We are on the same page Jim. I don't know the story of the tea cup being full.

[Marblehead]

 I don't know the story of the tea cup being full.

It's been told many different ways.  The point is, if your tea cup is already full (if your mind is already full of all the things you know) there is no room (empty space) to add anything to the tea cup (or to add new perspectives to our understandings because we already know everything).

 

 

Edit to add:

 

And that is one of the reasons I love Chuang Tzu so much.  He rarely tells us "what is".  He tells us of viewing "what might be" from different perspectives.

Edited June 24, 2016 by Marblehead

[Jim D.]

It sounds like the guy who thinks he is a tea cup is pretty full of himself. Mencius gives examples of arrogant rulers and how it is that the people under them don't particularly like or trust them.

[Rara]

I'm ready to respond.  I will likely use Burton Watson's translation.

 

Please state your question.  I will ask if I feel the question needs to be clarified or broken down into smaller pieces.

 

 

PS  The is a study of the Chuang Tzu about to begin and I am sure this study will help many who are interested in Chuang Tzu.

 

Hey! I missed a lot - could you help point me in the direction of any new Chuang-Tzu discussion? I'm back - intermittently. Got a new management job where I travel around a lot - plus was messing with chinese herbs to supposedly help balance me out. Didn't quite work out so I thought I'd let that all blow over =P