laziness vs tiredness and weakness

[Papayapple]

Often Im wondering: am I not practising because I know I will feel sick and uncomfortable or I am just too damn lazy to push through it. How do you distinguish between those? Is laziness a kind of absence of inspiraton or a fear of some kind?

I feel like I have no clue about what the word discipline really means.

[Highfaith]

Could be many things and could be "treated" with many routines:

 

- If you have psychological blocks about training, then you could use hypnosis to remove those. Ive used, with sucess, this :

 

http://pstec.org/

 

Its a easy self use hypnosis and the one to remove blocks is free. Used many many times.

 

- If your block is very strong, like someone would hit you so you would do things, ive used, with sucess as well, this:

 

http://www.sedona.com/Home.asp

 

Not easy to use, takes a long time, but ultra effective. Its like a tour to remove every single possible trauma. 

 

 - If you lack energy to do your routines, then i would suggest Chikung routines,

Edited June 27, 2016 by Highfaith

[Aetherous]

To have discipline you have to get a few things in order...

1) Make a decision that you're going to do this thing. If you are still undecided about what you're doing, you're only going to sometimes do it and sometimes not. You have to decide to do #2...

2) Set a reasonable goal...something that you will actually do, and not something you'd ideally do. So for instance, set the goal of sitting in meditation for 5 minutes every day at a specific time, to start out. Have a back up plan that if you don't make that specific time, you'll do it before bed. Do 5 minutes instead of an hour. So basically, nothing is going to stop you from achieving your goal...not laziness, exhaustion, friends asking you to go out, etc. Anyone can spare 5 minutes. The only thing that could stop you is truly lack of discipline.

 

3) Follow through. Do it each day. Reward yourself somehow for doing it...don't skimp on your reward.

 

...and then when you've achieved that goal for a good amount of time, when it has become a habit, you can either alter the goal (increasing the time in meditation) or set a new goal about something else.

Having a choice in front of you, and deciding to make the right choice despite a temporary agony (with a more permanent peace), is willpower and discipline.

[Jim D.]

I have been working out since 1972. It started being a half hour, and today it is two hours long. When I was younger I looked forward to pumping myself up and looking cut and buffed. At my age now, I settle for just being flexible and strong. My theory is that as long as I exercise I am telling the body that it is not time to die. It is a good thing because my mind set is that I am going to live into my 90's, maybe reach 100 (I am 10 days away from 70, but look like I am in my 50's. It is genetic I am sure...mother's side). I also think that it will ward off Alzeimers. But anyway, Discipline is structure. It worked well for me when I was working full time and for somebody else. There were times when I worked three jobs working 65 hours per week. Always made time to workout. But now working out is not a goal in itself, but rather its like taking a pill...It does not matter what time of the day I take the pill, as long as I take it that day.

 

JD

[manitou]

I too think the operative word is discipline.  Self discipline.  It seems like any and all disciplines have their payoff, depending on what we're looking for at any given time.  Need help with the body?  There's the discipline of working out.  Need help with internal dialogue in the head?  There's the discipline of meditation, in one form.

 

But it seems to me that they all point ultimately to the same place - the discipline of remaining vigilant over our thoughts, actions, and deeds - not in a pugilistic, self-flagellating way - but rather in a gentle discipline of awareness, the awareness that leads us from the creation of new karmic seeds.  The discipline of non-judgment, which in itself is a great challenge, it is so subtle in its many forms.  The discipline of staying on top of our thoughts - we can, you know - if we turn ourselves inward and stay in that awareness.  The discipline of not being a reactive slave to our egos, the discipline of looking with our eyes wide open at the part we play in every exchange or disagreement.  The discipline of seeing ourselves as we really are, what some would call the Christ consciousness, an observation without angst, self loathing, or pride.

 

The discipline of service, wherein we do not put ourselves first, and we maintain an attitude instead of service to others.  The discipline to love the earth, to attend it as a steward and pick up someone else's trash without resentment, but with love.

 

This is the ultimate discipline of life - the mere living day to day - not because we're doing it because someone is watching, but the discipline of doing it while no one is watching.  The discipline of being impeccable in our words and actions to the best of our abilities.

 

My discipline was to meditate for 20 minutes a day over a 30 year period of time.  I no longer feel the need to do this, I meditate instead when I have the desire to.  My discipline has evolved into being an observer of my own thoughts and actions. The payoff, however, has been as a result of the development of the strength to be disciplined, as difficult as it was in the beginning.  It almost doesn't matter what the particular discipline is.  It's just the repetitive stick to it-iveness that develops the reward.

 

It's so much easier to just shine it on.  But if you're here, it's because your higher self has brought you here, it knows what it needs.  It needs a like minded community of friends to prod you along, to urge you to stick to your intent, to develop that intent into something that will be really useful down the road.

 

My very best wishes to you.  it gets a lot easier as a little time goes on.

[Papayapple]

To have discipline you have to get a few things in order...

1) Make a decision that you're going to do this thing. If you are still undecided about what you're doing, you're only going to sometimes do it and sometimes not. You have to decide to do #2...

2) Set a reasonable goal...something that you will actually do, and not something you'd ideally do. So for instance, set the goal of sitting in meditation for 5 minutes every day at a specific time, to start out. Have a back up plan that if you don't make that specific time, you'll do it before bed. Do 5 minutes instead of an hour. So basically, nothing is going to stop you from achieving your goal...not laziness, exhaustion, friends asking you to go out, etc. Anyone can spare 5 minutes. The only thing that could stop you is truly lack of discipline.

 

3) Follow through. Do it each day. Reward yourself somehow for doing it...don't skimp on your reward.

 

...and then when you've achieved that goal for a good amount of time, when it has become a habit, you can either alter the goal (increasing the time in meditation) or set a new goal about something else.

Having a choice in front of you, and deciding to make the right choice despite a temporary agony (with a more permanent peace), is willpower and discipline.

 

Yes the point #1 is what allows me to get up and do it without much hesitation. And sticking to a daily minimum is smart as well. Thank you for reminding me. Its just that when I do it every day it becomes sort of vague and boring for lack of better words now. If I medotate once a week it seems to get much deeper, and doing it daily often results in just "sitting through" it. I notice that with everything else as well. Reading, studying, listening even walking! How can I progress when this keeps happening? It looks like the more I try to disciscipline myself the less I believe it's working? Should I exercise faith more? Like in prayer?  

 

But it seems to me that they all point ultimately to the same place - the discipline of remaining vigilant over our thoughts, actions, and deeds - not in a pugilistic, self-flagellating way - but rather in a gentle discipline of awareness, the awareness that leads us from the creation of new karmic seeds.  The discipline of non-judgment, which in itself is a great challenge, it is so subtle in its many forms.  The discipline of staying on top of our thoughts - we can, you know - if we turn ourselves inward and stay in that awareness.  The discipline of not being a reactive slave to our egos, the discipline of looking with our eyes wide open at the part we play in every exchange or disagreement.  The discipline of seeing ourselves as we really are, what some would call the Christ consciousness, an observation without angst, self loathing, or pride.

 

The discipline of service, wherein we do not put ourselves first, and we maintain an attitude instead of service to others.  The discipline to love the earth, to attend it as a steward and pick up someone else's trash without resentment, but with love.

 

This is the ultimate discipline of life - the mere living day to day - not because we're doing it because someone is watching, but the discipline of doing it while no one is watching.  The discipline of being impeccable in our words and actions to the best of our abilities.

 

I never heard somebody put these ideas in such a concise way... I'm moved and inspired by your words manitou.

[Aetherous]

Its just that when I do it every day it becomes sort of vague and boring for lack of better words now. If I medotate once a week it seems to get much deeper, and doing it daily often results in just "sitting through" it. I notice that with everything else as well. Reading, studying, listening even walking! How can I progress when this keeps happening?

 

That's a good point...the mind craves new experiences, and gets bored with what it thinks are old ones. And also, being natural and spontaneous is good, while being rigid is not so good.

 

I think there is a balance we can achieve, between lifeless discipline and untethered spontaneity. We can be disciplined while also being spontaneous at times.

 

The balance comes when we always do what our duty is regardless of how we feel, but then play when it comes to things other than our duty.

 

Paying the bills, especially if you're supporting a family, is a duty.

 

Meditation is much less so. Still, it requires some structure...we have to do what it takes to achieve the results we seek. If that means practicing once a week rather than every day, then it's best we do that. Different techniques require different accommodations and produce different results. Some will require the discipline of multiple times per day sessions...some are best done only when you feel like it.

[wilfred]

http://www.insightmeditationcenter.org/books-articles/articles/the-five-hindrances-handouts/the-hindrance-of-sloth-and-torpor/

[Papayapple]

http://www.insightmeditationcenter.org/books-articles/articles/the-five-hindrances-handouts/the-hindrance-of-sloth-and-torpor/

"When sloth and torpor are present and energy is weak, we do the best we can. When they are absent, energy will naturally be stronger. Rather than berating yourself when you are tired or praising yourself when you are alert, JUST KEEP PRACTICING. Certainly it will help reveal the precious beauty of your own mind."

 

So ultimately not much can be done huh? I began meditating daily in one form or the other about 3years ago, and now I feel I am much less able to stiĺl the mind. It used to be something incredible you know? If it's going to be like that all the way then I'm going to abandon it sooner or later.

[Jim D.]

Here is what worked for me. I had to get rid of the guilt and remorse of the past, take care of what I did today that did not help me get ahead spiritually, and then practice stillness. Another way to look at it, sweep the debris of my life away by venting to a trusted person. Not to someone who will side with me or enable me. This means taking a fearless and moral inventory of my life, and then admit  to myself and another human being the exact nature of my worngs.  Then there won't be a bunch of marbles clanging around in my head when I want to be still. If there is an absents of negative thinking than I am happy. The static in the attic is gone, then I can be still enough to meditate formally or informally.

 

For example, I wanted to be on this site this morning because it is intellectually stimulating. My wife and I have a routine of praying in front of Buddha first, and sitting down on the couch to read poetry to each other. I have been reading Ayn Rand which influenced my behavior this morning. My wife, has her routine before she goes to work, and I fit in to this routine. But today I didn't because "sometimes I don't want to wait for her to get ready to sit down with me." I have control issues. I just don't want someone else to be in control of my time. So, when she asks me if I am ready to get into our routine. I say, give me a second, and "I mean a second." She sits down in front of an on-going scrabble board game...I say I am ready to get up and pray with her. We pray, then go to the couch and sit down. She asks if I still want to read poetry this morning. I tell her I would rather be on the Internet, but since we are here we can go ahead with the readings. I ask her if she wants to read poetry to me. She says yes. I go on to say that I would rather be on this site because it is more intellectually stimulating than reading poetry. She says that she wouldn't miss it if we stopped reading poetry to each other, and that she will look for something else we can read together. I ask, what would you do with your time if we didn't sit here and read to each other....go to work? She said yes. So, she does. But now I am reviewing our interaction...and I can see how it is that she may have been offended. I don't know, but I will revisit this with her and make my amends. I won't point fingers and defend myself.  I will just look at it from her side. After all, I was different this morning from other mornings. I asked her if she feels in competition with my my seeking intellectual stimulation elsewhere. She responds, No. I ask her if she saw reading poetry together as romantic. "Not anymore this morning." I ask what she is feeling. She says, I don't know. But her face shows me something is going on inside. She has taken a step back from the usual affection she displays. Something is different. She is trying to adjust to my change in demeanor and behavior.

 

O.K. Do you think that I can just sit down, or get into a zeiza position and talk my way into stillness? No. Now multiply that over the 70 years that I have lived on this planet, and you can see if I didn't take a complete inventory of my life and take an inventory of the day, someitmes this hour, that this would be just another marble to put into the jar. You can only put so much in the jar and then it breaks. But today when I admit my failure to be sensitive to how it is she is "feeling me," by sharing with you, and then I in turn make an amends to her, its over with. I am doing the amends for me, how she receives it is on her. Now I can go on with my life today, and only today and not carry the burden of the past with me...no remorse and guilt to bury and defend and rationalize away with internal dialogue e.g. 'well she could have or should have.' Oh, and making a good amends is a matter of being specific as to the offense, not just saying  I am sorry, and that's that...gets the Ego down to right size.

 

Looking back I broke the routine, was arrogant about it, had a resentment about waiting for her and being inconvenienced, and had unrealistic expecations about her understanding or accepting this change in me and our routine.

 

I can live in the now and be still if I want to. Does this help?

 

JD

[wilfred]

"When sloth and torpor are present and energy is weak, we do the best we can. When they are absent, energy will naturally be stronger. Rather than berating yourself when you are tired or praising yourself when you are alert, JUST KEEP PRACTICING. Certainly it will help reveal the precious beauty of your own mind."

 

So ultimately not much can be done huh? I began meditating daily in one form or the other about 3years ago, and now I feel I am much less able to stiĺl the mind. It used to be something incredible you know? If it's going to be like that all the way then I'm going to abandon it sooner or later.

 

is there a particular practice your teacher recommended? without a teacher you could be working on the wrong thing or going backward even, depends whats going on with your energy.

[Papayapple]

No I don't have a teacher yet. And I'm not sure how to even find one. You don't often see "Private Taoism lessons" adds even on the internet. I am actually clueless how should I look for a GOOD teacher. I need someone who will do it all: teach me philosophy, meditation, qigong and taiji/bagua or something else.

 

But how can working on awareness of breath be counter-productive? I heard meditation is suppoaed to be "just something you do" after all. You do it because you dig it in Alan's words. Can you expkain that more clearly?

[wilfred]

No I don't have a teacher yet. And I'm not sure how to even find one. You don't often see "Private Taoism lessons" adds even on the internet. I am actually clueless how should I look for a GOOD teacher. I need someone who will do it all: teach me philosophy, meditation, qigong and taiji/bagua or something else.

 

But how can working on awareness of breath be counter-productive? I heard meditation is suppoaed to be "just something you do" after all. You do it because you dig it in Alan's words. Can you expkain that more clearly?

 

meditation is a large field with many different types of practice yielding different effects. anapana is a pretty safe one in my estimation, only thing to be aware of is it builds energy in the central channel and without the appropriate level of grounding you may end up with too much energy in the upper body/head. if you're paying attention at the nose/nostrils this could certainly be the case. not being able to quieten the mind is normally related to not being grounded in some form or another. a recent thread on this topic:

 

http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/40540-grounding/

 

where are you based geographically? if it's in the states i'm sure fellow bums may have some recommendations. if its europe i may be able to help, or at the least my group run online courses that provide a pretty thorough foundation to meditation. peace!

[Orion]

Discipline is creating to and adhering to a structure in your life, through dedication and determination, through thick and thin. It's a commitment.

 

Weakness is having the discipline, but not the energy. You want to do it and may try to do it, but can't generate power to initiate or complete the task.

 

Laziness is having the energy, opportunity and even the necessity, but opting to be idle. Laziness is actually an evolutionary advantage in the wild because it conserves energy. Most animals won't do anything that doesn't have a net gain, and sometimes doing nothing is the best approach. Humans are lazy out of complacency though.

 

There's also restfulness that's not being lazy at all. I just spent 3 days being super busy and today I did nothing but sit here eating and reading. Yang must be balanced with yin and vice versa. Sometimes laziness is due to excess yin.

 

Discipline also has its shortfalls. Something may no longer be suitable for us but we continue to pursue or apply it with rugged determination, like in relationships. Sometimes things are meant to fall away so new things can appear. Being disciplined in a stagnant modality is harmful.

 

It's about balance.

[Andrei]

It is called adrenal fatigue, but may be other causes too, like thyroid hormones imbalance or lack of minerals in the body, or all three together:

 

 

 

Edited June 23, 2016 by Andrei

[Junko]

You don't really need a teacher in life. Be a teacher for yourself.If you more focus how happy you want to become, you don't have to worry or think about how discipline everything should be.

[Papayapple]

It is called adrenal fatigue, but may be other causes too, like thyroid hormones imbalance or lack of minerals in the body, or all three together:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Izi-PNI7_Dc

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdU_EVb5xsc

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TeCwH6vzjzc

Wow that makes a lot of sense.

I have both adrenal condition from 10 years of tremendous stress and deficiences because of bad absorption.

Andrei, did you suffer from it in the past? Can you give me more tips how to cure it besides eating 7 cups of veggies and more protein? I find thay last bit about morning protein quite interesting. Always had a feeling that eating like that makes me more resistant to stress. Mayne thats why they call scrambled eggs " the breakfast of champions"? Im gonna try that and see how it works. Thank you! And bless you all!

[blue eyed snake]

A lot of advice and most of it very good, adrenal fatigue is indeed very plausible, think back to what the Amsterdam lady told you. One of the reasons for your fatigue and tendency to procrastinate is the aftermath of use of exorfins (grains for you). These little ' buggers' still play havoc in your brain.

I think you'r using DPPIV enzyme now?

 

if that's the case it will help in the long run with the above-mentioned problems. It does far more than just helping digestion, but all the other advices are to be heeded too

 

love BES

[EmeraldHead]

I think this will benefit you: 

(I mean the whole channel and facebook group, the whole material)

 

It has removed the problem for me.

[Andrei]

Yes, I have it chronically I mean my body type is adrenal type and I've been like that all my life. Including astrological signs both western and Chinese indicate the same thing.

 

So it took me 30-40 years to figure it out, dr. Berg explains very well in one of his videos "How to eat according to your body type". The body type is given by the hormones you produce in your body and the hormones are given by the organs energy. Basically eat plenty of cruciferous vegetables (kale, broccoli, cabbage, Brussels sprouts) but also other vegetables with meat which is crucial in adrenal fatigue because adrenals consumes the body proteins and the muscles atrophy. This is why usually adrenal types are slim and skin and bones. I eat at breakfast a fruit salad and 1 egg and 1 avocado. In the winter I eat some bacon but not all the time. Also is very important to do exercise but specific for adrenal types which means high intensity short periods with lengthy periods of rest (like 30 sec max intensity and then 3 min rest) either for cardio or strength. The exercise is required so that the body stimulates the Growth Hormone otherwise you are constantly in cathabolism.

 

Taichi, qigong, meditation doesn't work for adrenal types except in small amounts, not as a way of living on a day to day basis, these activities stress adrenals even more because they increase the so called "Qi" but that is exactly what you have in excess.

 

Other than that I use herbs and Chinese medicine and Chinese cooking. In terms of Chinese medicine adrenal fatigue is diagnosed as "Yin deficiency syndrome"

 

Here are some examples:

https://www.chinesemedicineliving.com/medicine/chinese-herbs/

http://www.nourishu.com/

 

There are many herbs that I use occasionally but among those are: Rehmannia, Astragalus, Angelica, Schizandra, Reishi, Ginseng, Codonopsis, Rhodiola, Cordiceps, Goji, Ashwagandha.

 

Chinese herbs and cooking is a vast domain but to me is the only thing that gives results, although I've done Taichi, Qigong and meditation for more than 20 years and I was always "tired" when I was trying to impose a schedule of practice.

 

The tiredness is just a response of the body towards your practice. Most of the tiredness and sleepiness comes from too much serotonin which is also stimulated by the "practices". There are people who need to stimulate the serotonin production but others they don't need.

 

Also there are people who produce too much adrenaline and cortisol in the adrenals. These kind of people are  living in a constant sensation of fear, to these people meditation is good as a way to analyse their fears but not to concentrate any "Qi" in their bellies or in their kidneys, because this will lead to Yang Qi excess which burns the kidney Yin which is diagnosed as "adrenal fatigue". These people need to stimulate more the dopamine production through Yang activities that gives them motivation and pleasure to live actively and disperse the Yang Qi outward instead of concentrating inward. Also too much activity stress the adrenals so there is a fine line between activity and rest, that midpoint that feels good is the optimum for you, not too much not too little.

 

The Yang people are Yin inside and the Yin people are Yang inside.

 

So it is very important to understand what your body is doing, how it is influenced by your diet and your activities and to find a balance, which is only specific to you. Of course you need to try different things and see what works for you the best, I am just giving you a theoretical explanation how these things work.

[Papayapple]

Well in his video dr Berg actually advises no cruciferus vegs for adrenal types for some reason, but since I react to nightshades Im left with lettuces and kale brocolli so on. I actually think I may be a mixed type but adrenal seems to be dominant. I am curious if there are any blood tests I could do to determine my cortisol levels and also why I seem to have sugar resistance. Now that I dont use any stimulants or sugars I am much calmer but my ability to concentrate is very low. I am not distracted that much, it's just the low voltage, like doing trigonometry would be impossible.

Thats why I have trouble learning anything by heart now, not to mention being very uncomfortable while reading anything scientific.

 

Thanks for all the advises though, I realize that its also a matter of practice so I will try all of the suggested techniques one by one.