Is rigpa really that simple?

[Tibetan_Ice]

To understand thogal visions, what they are and what they are not,

we must study how the tradition which invented thogal defines them,

not how the tradition which adopted thogal into their system and pre-existing philosophy defines them:

 

So, to post this quote for the third time already:

 

The thogal visions from a taoist Mao-Shan pov:

quote from "Taoist Meditation: The Mao-Shan Tradition of Great Purity" by Isabelle Robinet:

This is not thogal.

There is no volition in thogal. If you try to do something and manipulate light or the breaths etc, you are grasping.

In thogal you do not grasp. First you enter the natural state and then you let it unravel all on its own.

Manifesting deities on the celestial spheres is just creating astral entities.

 

 

That quote proves nothing.

[ralis]

According to the Dalai Lama rigpa is not that simple:

"The most difficult task is to differentiate between ordinary mind and rigpa. It is easy enough to talk about it. You can say, for example, that rigpa has never been confused, while ordinary mind has fallen under the influence of concepts and is mired in confusion. But to be introduced to the direct experience of the essence of rigpa is far from being easy. And so Dodrupchen says that although your arrogance might be such that you assume you are meditating on the ultimate meaning of rigpa, there is a danger that 'you could end up meditating on the clear, empty qualities of your ordinary mind, which even non-Buddhists are capable of doing.' He is warning us to be careful."

Taken from Dzogchen by H.H. The Dalai Lama p 49

 

The problem is deferring to someone else who may not have your best interests in mind. Further, to immediately state how extremely difficult rigpa appears to be, is setting up obstacles in one's mind. The caption I have posted speaks volumes as to how it is so easy to let an authoritarian provide all the answers.

 

Years ago (1986) I was at Field's bookstore in San Francisco California and saw the book 'The Crystal and the Way of Light' by Norbu. I picked up the book and upon seeing the photo of Norbu on the inside front cover, the transmission of rigpa was instant, just by seeing the photo. It was effortless and the first retreat with him confirmed the experience.

 

 

 

[Wells]

.

Edited July 1, 2016 by Wells

[ralis]

You seem unable to follow:

 

Buddhists adopted taoist thogal practice into their system and buddhist context.

In that attempt, many aspects of the practice of thogal were re-interpreted through the lense of buddhist dogma,

which (how could it be different) obviously lead to serious misinterpretation!

 

Exactly and to the point! Most never realize how much cultural baggage and dogma are attached to these practices. Perhaps some of the posters here are wearing their weekend yellow and red robes. Great color combination! Oh, I almost forgot that funny hats are part of the uniform.

[CelibacySeeker]

I meant that Buddha said he is the only one who realized the gem so obviously if you need to attain the same level of realization you need the same level of commitment and path. 

[ralis]

This is what Buddha said. 

 

 

The Buddha didn't write down one word and yet his so called word is taken as absolute gospel. BTW, the so called words of Buddha were not written down for around 500 years which is plenty of time to include legend and lore plus lots of embellishment.

[ralis]

I meant that Buddha said he is the only one who realized the gem so obviously if you need to attain the same level of realization you need the same level of commitment and path. 

 

Did the Buddha tell you this? Do you question the Buddha per his command to do so?

[Wells]

.

Edited July 1, 2016 by Wells

[Tibetan_Ice]

You seem unable to follow:

 

Buddhists adopted taoist thogal practice into their system and buddhist context.

In that attempt, many aspects of the practice of thogal were re-interpreted through the lense of buddhist dogma,

which (how could it be different) obviously lead to serious misinterpretation!

Sorry, not interested in what some scholar nonpractitioners wrote.

The practice of thogal is very simple. It needs no Buddhist dogma to support it.

I don't even think that one should call Dzogchen Buddhist.

If you manipulate anything you do not end up "leaping over".

If you have not mastered rigpa, there is no thogal.

Dudjom Lingpa had 13 of his students achieve rainbow body, if it works, it works.

From the Nangjang (Bolding is mine)

 

You can replace "awareness" with "rigpa"...

 

SEVEN YEARS LATER, while having a pure vision in a dream, I met the dharmakaya teacher Vajradhara. On that occasion I asked, "Ah, teacher, transcendent and accomplished conqueror, how am I freed on the path of liberation and omniscience, and how am I confused on the path of samsara? Teacher, reveal this to me, I pray."

 

Upon my having made this request, he bestowed the following reply: "Ah, listen to me, great spiritual being. The two states-that of a buddha and that of an ordinary being-come about depending on whether there is recognition of awareness or not.

 

"The ground of being itself, the primordial guide Kuntuzangpo, is the epitome of the four kayas and the five aspects of timeless awareness (ye-shey nga). Its essence as emptiness is dharmakaya. Its nature as lucidity is sambhogakaya. Its responsiveness as natural freedom is nirmanakaya. Its pervasiveness (khyab-pa) and extension (dal-wa) throughout all samsara and nirvana are svabhavikakaya.

 

" As there is the limitless potential for all phenomena, there is the basic space of phenomena (chho-ying). As there is pristine lucidity, free of sullying factors, there is a mirrorlike quality (me-long). As samsara and nirvana are the display of equalness and purity, there is equalness (nyam-nyid). As there is the unimpeded avenue of omniscient timeless awareness, there is discernment (sor-tog). As all that is to be done is already ensured through freedom and purity, there is spontaneous fulfillment (ja-drub).

 

"In this way, the path of freedom within naturally occurring (rang-jung) buddhahood makes evident awareness-the epitome of the four kayas and five aspects of timeless awareness. The essence of awareness is pervasive and extensive, the panorama of space, not existent as any object, and supremely unobstructed. Given that its display, without underlying basis or foundation, is free of conceptual elaboration, it is dharmakaya. From the perspective of the nature of awareness being inherently lucid, it is sambhogakaya. From the perspective of awareness being an unimpeded avenue for the lucidity of timeless awareness, it is nirmanakaya. And from the perspective of awareness being the common ground of samsara and nirvana, it is svabhavikakaya.

 

"Once a definitive conclusion has been reached regarding the ground of being, there is realization of the context in which samsara and nirvana are of one taste in the basic space of the true nature of phenomena-this is timeless awareness as the basic space of phenomena (chho-ying ye-shey). Emptiness is not an inert void but is pristinely lucid and free of sullying factors, like a polished mirror in which anything at all can arise-this is mirrorlike timeless awareness (me-long ye- shey). Knowing the way in which samsara and nirvana are equal and pure in supreme emptiness is timeless awareness as equalness (nyam-nyid ye-shey). The dynamic energy of awareness, as the unimpeded avenue for the lucid expression of timeless awareness that understands each thing individually, is discerning timeless awareness (sor-tog ye-shey). Since the accomplishment of activities is naturally ensured in a state of purity and freedom through mastery of awareness, there is timeless awareness of spontaneous fulfillment (ja-drub ye-shey).

 

" Many do not understand this mode of being just as it is, and instead make their path a passive state of consciousness that does not differentiate between ordinary mind (sem) and awareness (rig-pa). Outwardly they perceive sensory appearances to have characteristics of substance (ngo-po) and karmic neutrality (lung-ma-tan). Inwardly they are rigidly bound by the concept that their bodies have substance and are karmically neutral and permanent. They may achieve a stable experience between these two poles, as it were, which is merely a state of unceasing consciousness, lucid and aware. There is the slight possibility that this will create virtue which propels them to the two higher realms. However, they will not attain a state of liberation and omniscience. This is, therefore, a flawed approach.

 

"The term 'sublime knowing that knows the nature of things just as it is' refers to knowing the fundamental nature just as it is-knowing that all phenomena subsumed within samsara and nirvana are of one taste within the context of suchness (de-zhin nyid), the true nature of phenomena. The term 'sub- lime knowing that knows things in their variety' refers to the fact that although one abides within the context of the essence of awareness, the unimpeded avenue of all-knowing, all- cognizing awareness occurs naturally. Although this avenue is unimpeded, it does not become caught up with sense objects. This is likened to a drop of quicksilver falling on the ground. "Ordinary mind views samsara and nirvana as existing in their own right (rang-gyud) and perceives sensory appearances as having substance. This constitutes nonrecognition of the way in which the ground of being abides. From this, mental events originate and cease, being caught up with sense objects. This is likened to a drop of water falling onto dry earth. "When the true face of the ground aspect of buddhahood-a state of purity and mastery of the ground of being- is obscured by the nonrecognition of awareness (ma-rig-pa), the kayas and timeless awareness-the innate glow of the ground of being-subside into an inner glow whose radiance (dang) is directed outwardly, unfolding as the display of the five elements through light of five colors. This takes place in the following way.

 

"When timeless awareness as the basic space of phenomena is obscured by the nonrecognition of awareness, the outwardly directed radiance manifests as dark blue light. This is termed the 'inner element,' 'major element,' or 'subtle essence of space.' When this radiance is fixated on as having sub- stance and conceived of as truly existing, it manifests as space. This is termed the 'outer element,' 'minor element,' or 'manifestation that constitutes the dregs.'

 

"When mirrorlike timeless awareness is obscured by the nonrecognition of awareness, it subsides into an inner glow whose outwardly directed radiance manifests as white light. This is the subtle essence of water, or the major or inner element. When this radiance is conceived of as having substance and is fixated on as truly existing, it manifests as water. This is the dregs, or the minor or outer element.

 

"When timeless awareness as equalness is obscured by the nonrecognition of awareness, it subsides into an inner glow whose outwardly directed radiance manifests as yellow light. This is the subtle essence of earth, or the inner or major element. When this radiance is conceived of as having substance and is fixated on as truly existing, it manifests as earth. This is the dregs, or the minor or outer element.

 

"When discerning timeless awareness is obscured by the nonrecognition of awareness, it subsides into an inner glow whose outwardly directed radiance manifests as red light. This is the subtle essence of fire, or the inner or major element. When this radiance is conceived of as having substance and is fixated on as truly existing, it manifests as fire. This is the dregs, or the minor or outer element.

 

"When timeless awareness as spontaneous fulfillment is obscured by the nonrecognition of awareness, it subsides into an inner glow whose outwardly directed radiance manifests as green light. This is the subtle essence of air, or the inner or major element. When this radiance is conceived of as having substance and is fixated on as truly existing, it manifests as air. This is the dregs, or the minor or outer element.

 

"The fact that these luminous radiances are indwelling ensures that sensory appearances of various colors and the five elements manifest uninterruptedly.

 

"The following is a discussion of what arises as the dynamic energy of this fivefold basis of confusion. The obscuring of the ground of being by the nonrecognition of awareness is indisputably the ground of all ordinary experience (kun- zhi), an inert void, like empty space, in which no thought at all takes place and no sensory appearances manifest. It is like deep sleep or a loss of consciousness. To be thoroughly absorbed in this state is the essence of great shifting array of the nonrecognition of awareness. From this state, one's own share of the subtle energy of karma (lay kyi lung) is aroused, being the essence of envy. Its functioning causes an aspect of lucidity-consciousness stirring from the ground of all ordinary experience (kun-zhii nam-shey)-to be elicited from emptiness; this constitutes abiding in the essence of aversion. From this comes emotionally afflicted consciousness (nyon-yid), the onset of the concept of an 'I' where there is merely the appearance of a self; this constitutes abiding in the essence of pride. From this arises conceptual mind (yid), which constitutes the potential for sensory appearances to proliferate within the ground of this inert void. An aspect of lucidity is thus elicited, which constitutes abiding in the essence of desire and attachment. All of these five essences arise as outward dynamic energy from the inner glow. These essences of the five emotional poisons are like a fire from which emotionally afflicted thought patterns fly like sparks.

 

" Furthermore, this voidness with a lucid aspect-the congruence of the ground of all ordinary experience and concep- tual mind-provides a field for objectification, which is an unimpeded avenue for the proliferation of sensory appear- ances. With the synchronicity of the two factors of cause and condition-where the cause is the ground of being, endowed with the potential for things to arise, and the condition is the stirring of the subtle energy of karma-myriad manifestations of visual forms proliferate such that they are dependent on that ground and connected to it, being nothing other than the ground itself. The context within which sensory appearances proliferate as visual forms is conventionally described as 'visual consciousness.'

 

In this regard, the term 'field for objectification' (yul) refers to the field in which sensory appearances manifest; this can be likened to an ocean. The 'perception of objects' (zung wa) refers to the manifestation of sensory appearances as visual forms; this can be likened to the reflection of stars and planets. Furthermore, as the subtle reifying function of consciousness based on conceptual mind (yid kyi nam-shey) labels these forms, invests them with meaning, and regards them as having substance, there arises conceptualization that perpetuates three types of experience-pleasant, painful, and neutral. This is termed 'ordinary mind that reifies through vision' (mig gi dzin-pa sem).

 

"Similarly, the field that is the unimpeded avenue for the proliferation of sounds is the 'field for objectification.' The proliferation of sensory appearances that manifest as sounds is the 'perception of objects.' Consciousness based on conceptual mind, which perpetuates these perceptions, is the 'ordinary mind that reifies.' As before, there is an interdependent connection, with cause and condition coming together.

 

"And this can be applied in a similar way to 'olfactory consciousness,' within which there is the proliferation of sensory appearances that manifest as odors; to 'gustatory consciousness,' within which there is the proliferation of sensory appearances that manifest as tastes; and to 'tactile consciousness,' within which there is the proliferation of sensory appearances that manifest as tactile sensations. Though we describe these in conventional terms, consciousness does not actually manifest through distinct orifices, as is demonstrated by the manifesta- tion of sensory appearances in dreams and the bardo.

 

"Some people hold sensory appearances to be mind. They might wonder whether all outer sensory appearances are actually conceptualization and, therefore, their own minds, but that is not the case. This is demonstrated by the fact that while sensory appearances change from the very moment they manifest, ceasing and passing away in a succession of later moments following former ones, ordinary mind does not take on the essence of every passing phenomenon and thereby become itself nonexistent as mind.

 

"And so, in the usual way that things manifest to the eight avenues of consciousness, samsara proliferates in its entirety. However, even by tracing this process back to consciousness that stirs from the ground of all ordinary experience, one is still left stranded at the very pinnacle of conditioned existence.

 

"In summary, the world of all appearances and possibilities, whether of samsara or nirvana, is none other than the ground of being itself and is of one taste with that very ground. To use a metaphor, although myriad reflections of the planets and stars appear in the ocean, in actuality they are of one taste with the water itself. Understand that things are like this. Revealing all sensory appearances to be awareness's own manifestations (rang-nang) is the heart advice of Vajradhara.,

 

Saying this, he faded away.

 

 

 

So, if you are playing with and manipulating the five lights, it is from the state of ignorance, nonrecognition of rigpa.

Edited June 25, 2016 by Tibetan_Ice

[rex]

The problem is deferring to someone else who may not have your best interests in mind. Further, to immediately state how extremely difficult rigpa appears to be, is setting up obstacles in one's mind. The caption I have posted speaks volumes as to how it is so easy to let an authoritarian provide all the answers.

 

Years ago (1986) I was at Field's bookstore in San Francisco California and saw the book 'The Crystal and the Way of Light' by Norbu. I picked up the book and upon seeing the photo of Norbu on the inside front cover, the transmission of rigpa was instant, just by seeing the photo. It was effortless and the first retreat with him confirmed the experience

This reply has more to do with expressing your issues with teachers than of dealing with the advice and nuances involved in recognising rigpa.

[Wells]

.

Edited July 1, 2016 by Wells

[rex]

Lol, so only buddhists can recognize rigpa?

To the extent that Dzogchen is a distinct practice tradition with a sophisticated technical vocabulary - yes. After all, how do people outside of practice traditions know that their experience matches what the tradtions are referring to?

[ralis]

This reply has more to do with expressing your issues with teachers than of dealing with the advice and nuances involved in recognising rigpa.

 

No! It is in regards to thinking for myself and staying clear of deferring my life to an authoritarian. Further, you are claiming that I didn't experience rigpa?

Edited June 25, 2016 by ralis

[Tibetan_Ice]

Very intelligent comment! The Mao-Shan invented Thogal and wrote about it, but didn't practice it!

Show me where the Mao-Shan claim to have brought thogal to Buddhism.

 

By the way, the Red Phoenix (Kunlun) is from the Mao-Shan according to Max.

[Wells]

.

Edited July 1, 2016 by Wells

[ralis]

Another proof you have no experience and no knowledge, there are types of light body with attainment or without. There is no higher attainment then Buddha.

 

The highlighted statement does not follow at all. Buddhism is a universal religion? How so?

[ralis]

Show me where the Mao-Shan claim to have brought thogal to Buddhism.

 

By the way, the Red Phoenix (Kunlun) is from the Mao-Shan according to Max.

 

The problem with Max is that he doesn't reveal his sources.

[CelibacySeeker]

The highlighted statement does not follow at all. Buddhism is a universal religion? How so?

 

It's not. 

[rex]

No! It is in regards to thinking for myself and staying clear of deferring my life to an authoritarian. Further, you are claiming that I didn't experience rigpa?

I'm claiming that you consistently express little regard or respect for the teachers or tradition which transmits this knowledge.

[ralis]

It's not. 

 

You stated there is no higher attainment than Buddha which is an absolute universal statement. Which is it?

[ralis]

I'm claiming that you consistently express little regard or respect for the teachers or tradition which transmits this knowledge.

 

I have no interest in outdated traditions or teachers that hold me back. The only thing I care about is knowledge. Guru yoga cured any need for fawning deference.

[CelibacySeeker]

You stated there is no higher attainment than Buddha which is an absolute universal statement. Which is it?

 

Attainment is not the path, attainment is universal as every emotion or thought, but path is not universal

[ralis]

Attainment is not the path, attainment is universal as every emotion or thought, but path is not universal

 

Please don't make absolute statements unless you have evidence to back it up. I am critiquing what you stated. You stated their is no higher attainment than Buddha.

 

Emotions and thoughts are universal? Prove that one by showing interviews with alien beings.

 

http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/41341-is-rigpa-really-that-simple/page-4#entry694676

Edited June 25, 2016 by ralis

[C T]

This thread is not about thogal. 

[ralis]

This thread is not about thogal. 

 

How so?

Edited June 25, 2016 by ralis