Is rigpa really that simple?

[Wells]

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Edited July 1, 2016 by Wells

[C T]

Allegedly recognizing rigpa is a prerequisite of thogal, isn't it?

This isn't what the OP questions, is it? 

[ralis]

The strategy behind rigpa allows one to function at a higher level in all phases of life.

[C T]

The strategy behind rigpa allows one to function at a higher level in all phases of life.

Maybe you could deduce and explain what these 'strategies' are when you are ready. At least such an attempt will exemplify what it means to function at a higher level in the various phases of life - without going off-topic, too. 

[Wells]

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Edited July 1, 2016 by Wells

[Tibetan_Ice]

So you didn't read my recent thogal & taoism thread

or did you immedeately suppress what you read there to be able to keep your belief system?

The thread that you changed the title to?

This one? http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/41273-dzogchen-thogal-a-buddhist-creative-adaptation-of-a-daoist-technique/

I read the OP several times and decided that it was nonsensical, speculative, inaccurate and lacked proper references.

 

Further, knowing Jax's history and his propensity to gloss over salient points and mix absolute and relative terminology, which was again verified in this text, I read it with a whole salt shaker of salt.

 

 

For example, the Speculative text says (I am Bolding the salient point)

Keep in mind that this lineage of teaching is continuous from at least 100 b.c. As attested from dated Taoist texts. The major Mao-Shan texts were written and practiced between 300-400 a.d. It's definitely not a recent reworking of Dzogchen thogal texts. Thogal itself isn't mentioned until after 1000 a.d. in Dzogchen texts. It's completely absent as a technology in original earliest Dzogchen or Nubs Sangye Yeshe would have mentioned it at around 890 a.d. Even the term "break through" didn't exist in earliest Dzogchen texts.

 

 

The topic is about thogal, not trekchod. "Break Through" refers to trekchod, not thogal. Thogal is the "leap over".

 

Taoists teach at the center of the brain, at the pineal gland, the 'pure awareness' resides. It's called Shen or spirit. It is identical to rigpa as the "son-light" in Dzogchen and has the exact location as the Yangti lamp called the "thigle tongpa dronma".

 

 

Bull. There is rigpa throughout the body and the biggest pool is in the heart area. Yes, it is son rigpa if separate from mother rigpa..

However, you cultivate Shen but you don't cultivate rigpa.

 

The contents of that quote does not have any references. If you look for "thigle tongpa dronma" on Google, you will not find it. I cannot find it (or anything close) in any of my books on the lamps of Dzogchen, from JLA or Namdak. No way to verify what is being said.

 

It is also the location in Nying Thig that Longchenpa calls the location of the "nature of mind" as Sem Nyid. As above, they mention the "nature" in the heart radiates up through a channel passing through the center of the brain there splitting into two branches that end at the pupils, through which the various inner "lights" shine out in front of the practitioner.

 

Again, no reference, no mention of where the statements come from. Are we just supposed to take Jax's speculation unexamined?

As far as I know, most if not all books on Dzogchen declare that the "nature of mind" has no location.

 

From "Natural Perfection - Longchenpa's Radical Dzogchen:

Rigpa as the nature of mind lacks any substance or attribute, so it has neither spatial nor temporal extension.

 

That means that the nature of mind has no location.

 

Further, I did comment on that topic...

 

http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/41273-dzogchen-thogal-a-buddhist-creative-adaptation-of-a-daoist-technique/?p=693103

 

If you want to just believe anything that some writes on a forum or Facebook page, that is your prerogative. But if you can't verify and support what is being presented yourself by doing the research and practices, time to leave it aside.

Edited June 25, 2016 by Tibetan_Ice

[C T]

If you were concerned with this thread going off-topic, then you would address other posts than ralis'.

So don't pretend.

Is there a rule here that dictates which posts we must or must not respond to? Anyway, i was merely being polite by answering Ralis' question initially. Other than that im waiting to see if Jax will come forth to answer TI's questions, so basically im not wanting to jump the gun, you see. 

[Wells]

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Edited July 1, 2016 by Wells

[ralis]

Maybe you could deduce and explain what these 'strategies' are when you are ready. At least such an attempt will exemplify what it means to function at a higher level in the various phases of life - without going off-topic, too. 

 

I stated strategy, singular, not plural. Strategy in this case is the optimal way to live and function. Far too many misunderstand and let their lives fall apart.

 

In Dzogchen, one is open/awakened to infinite potential as stated by Norbu.

Edited June 25, 2016 by ralis

[C T]

The OP wrote the words below, so you tell me:

 

 

And you are asking others if they were dumb, lol.

Dont be idiotic. You were the first to bring thogal into this thread, not Tibetan Ice. 

[ralis]

This is not thogal.

There is no volition in thogal. If you try to do something and manipulate light or the breaths etc, you are grasping.

In thogal you do not grasp. First you enter the natural state and then you let it unravel all on its own.

Manifesting deities on the celestial spheres is just creating astral entities.

 

 

That quote proves nothing.

 

 

As in Lama's with sunglasses and fairies that you have spoken about?

[C T]

I stated strategy, singular, not plural. Strategy in this case is the optimal way to live and function. Far too many misunderstand and let their lives fall apart.

 

In Dzogchen, one is open/awakened to infinite potential as stated by Norbu.

How would one go about exemplifying this singular strategy then, Ralis? 

[Wells]

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Edited July 1, 2016 by Wells

[ralis]

How would one go about exemplifying this singular strategy then, Ralis? 

 

Rigpa being the natural/primordial state with no boundary, rules or conditions, which appears as the optimum way to live. No further elaboration is required, so think for yourself.

[Tibetan_Ice]

As in Lama's with sunglasses and fairies that you have spoken about?

The faeries appeared out of nowhere and was during a "focusing on the star above the head" meditation.

 

The rainbow spheres with people inside was during thogal practice.

 

One advantage of not trying to manipulate anything is that you know the difference between creating thought forms in the astral planes and seeing what arises unprovoked or fabricated.

 

You say you have had all kinds of teachings and experiences including thogal, yet you ask questions like that...

[ralis]

The faeries appeared out of nowhere and was during a "focusing on the star above the head" meditation.

 

The rainbow spheres with people inside was during thogal practice.

 

One advantage of not trying to manipulate anything is that you know the difference between creating thought forms in the astral planes and seeing what arises unprovoked or fabricated.

 

You say you have had all kinds of teachings and experiences including thogal, yet you ask questions like that...

 

You are able to tell the difference? What if there is no difference?

[Apech]

You can really tell that the people on this thread know what Rigpa is all about.

[Tibetan_Ice]

You know, I have better things to do than moderate threads.

It is too bad the people here can't show each other common respect and courtesy.

Somewhere in the path to enlightenment there is the wish that everyone become enlightened. Why don't we work on that instead?

[doc benway]

Greeting everyone,

I just returned from a week of retreat on sleep yoga - it's going on for another week but I was only fortunate enough to stay for the first. The object of the practice is to use sleep as a means to enter directly into the natural state.

We had wonderful teachings on the subject and lots of practice. There is nothing quite like taking a nice nap in the gompa after lunch while the teacher and geshes are chanting and praying for your success!

 

In the context of sleep yoga, the natural state is referred to as the sleep of clear light. Clear referring to the empty aspect and light referring to the knowing or awareness aspect. I'd like to offer an observation and comment on this thread - please disregard if it does not seem to be of value to you.

 

It feels like there is too much objectification of the word rigpa occurring in this discussion and others on the forum. Rigpa is a simple word that means knowing, it is the opposite of ma rigpa which is ignorance. 

In the dzogchen context, that 'knowing' has a very specific focus - knowing which is innately self aware.

 

Rigpa does not seem to me to be used in the Tibetan scriptures as an exclusive way to denote a specific state or condition but then again I am not a scholar of Tibetan. It is simply one of many words used to gently guide us in our search to recognize our true nature and, as such, indicating a specific characteristic of that nature, not the nature itself.

 

It is my sincere wish and prayer that all of the wonderful people here be blessed with the great meaning, beyond intellect, of the primordial state free of all conditions and fabrication so that we may all be of benefit to others.

 

I send all of you my love 

 

_/\_

[Apech]

@Steve

 

Sweet dreams

[CelibacySeeker]

No, rigpa is not knowing aspect but realization, the knowing you all the time pointing out is not rigpa but 6th consciousness. 

[C T]

No, rigpa is not knowing aspect but realization, the knowing you all the time pointing out is not rigpa but 6th consciousness. 

Realization is togpa (skt. adigam)

 

Rigpa is non-conceptual knowing, or sometimes equated to wisdom awareness (skt. vidya)

In Dzogchen, Rigpa has a more direct meaning: The innermost nature of mind. 

[DiamondEyE]

No, rigpa is not knowing aspect but realization, the knowing you all the time pointing out is not rigpa but 6th consciousness.

rig pa or vidya is a special type of knowledge.

Edited June 26, 2016 by DiamondEyE

[Tibetan_Ice]

Is rigpa "consciousness?

It is my understanding that rigpa is not consciousness because I have had experiences where I was aware but unconscious (like watching myself sleep). Further, if rigpa is beyond mind (I do not mean the nature of mind here) then consciousness, which is always conscious of something and always has a subject and object, is dualistic. Rigpa is not dualistic. Therefore, Peterson's interpretation is faulty.

 

From Jax's book The Natural Bliss of Being:

Question: You mentioned the Tibetan tradition of Dzogchen or The Great Perfection teachings. Could you explain a bit more regarding their most essential instructions for practice? I am not sure how one would put these teachings into practice.

 

Answer: Actually the key instructions are quite easy once you know the main principles. In The Great Perfection teachings it is taught that our current observing awareness or consciousness is already enlightened and perfect. First we have to differentiate this perfect awareness from the other levels of the mind’s functioning, like thinking and imagining. This perfect awareness when recognized is called “Rigpa” in Tibetan. Rigpa is the single most important term in The Great Perfection teachings. So Rigpa is this “naked” or bare awareness that is just observing or knowing all experience that is occurring in the mind. In the simple process of “seeing” with our eyes, that process of seeing can occur without or with thoughts about what is seen. Likewise our Rigpa awareness can just experience both mental and perceptual content without itself engaging in judging, labeling or thinking about those experiential events. Just as an exercise, consider that Rigpa as who you are, is your sphere of awareness that fills the space of your head, and that it is looking out of your eyes. You, as this sphere of pure consciousness are looking out your eyes. Recognize that you are this empty observingness that is just there by default. Within this sphere of clear awareness, thoughts can appear and disappear like clouds in the space of the sky. But the space of the sky is not altered by the appearance of clouds or their absence. So we can differentiate the clear space of the sky from the clouds or weather that appear in it. We can also differentiate between the space of our clear observing awareness and our thoughts that appear in it. This is the first aspect of being introduced to the ever present Rigpa awareness as being our own unchanging condition.

 

 

Bolding is mine..

 

So, Peterson is calling perfect awareness "consciousness" and saying that consciousness is rigpa.

 

The other thing I noticed about Peterson's rendition of the term "rigpa" was discovered by accident. Again, from the same book, Peterson quotes Ponlop Rinpoche:

Dzogchen master Ponlop Rinpoche taught:

 

“Our mind is primordially in the state of Rigpa (Knowing Awareness). Whatever state of mind we go through, whether it is a very heavy experience of ignorance or a very outrageous emotion of anger, we have never moved from the state of Rigpa. Our mind has always been in the state of Rigpa, but we don’t realize it all the time.”

 

 

Since there was no reference (footnote indicating he source of the quote) I did a search and found the text. Here it is, from

https://www.amazon.com/Penetrating-Wisdom-Samantabhadra-Dzogchen-Ponlop/dp/1590304160

 

Our mind is primordially in the state of rigpa. Whatever state of mind we go through, whether it is a very heavy experience of ignorance or a very outrageous emotion of anger, we have never moved from the state of rigpa. Our mind has always been in the state of rigpa, but we don’t realize it all the time.

 

 

 

 

 

The first thing I noticed is that there is no "(Knowing Awarenss)" text in Ponlop's original text.

Peterson has added his own text to the author's original text thus deceiving the reader to believe that Ponlop is saying that rigpa is "knowing awareness"!

 

Again, I found the exact same text on the net and there there is no (Knowing Awarenss)" text at the end of the sentence "Our mind is primordially in the state of rigpa. "

 

See:

 

http://www.dailyom.com/library/000/003/000003464.html

 

Again, Ponlop never wrote the bolded text in his original source:

 

"Our mind is primordially in the state of Rigpa (Knowing Awareness). "

 

At this point I can only conclude that Peterson misrepresents quotes from original authors and adds his own edits into those quotes. Big loss of credibility here.

Edited June 26, 2016 by Tibetan_Ice

[C T]

Im not sure i agree that rigpa is the single most important term in the Dzogchen teachings. Its vitalness is revealed gradually thru the 6 paths of building up, applying, seeing, accustoming, last phase, and finally no further training. So someone on the path of building up would not/need not (theoretically) be as familiar with rigpa as say one who is on the seeing path, and as one moves ahead, the meaning and nature of rigpa begins to crystallise, until finally, at the maturation of the phase of no further training, even the subtlest habitual separative tendencies are all dissolved, and rigpa becomes inseparable from sem. At that point the realiser simply rest as is, not even the thought "Oh, Im now resting in rigpa" arises. And the need to continue to look inwards to watch for distractions becomes unnecessary, because at that point the selfless nature of mind no longer fluctuates between sem and rigpa. End of duality.