Is rigpa really that simple?

[already]

Rigpa is knowledge.

Knoweledge of the primordial state.

[Jeff]

Rigpa is knowledge.

Knoweledge of the primordial state.

And that knowing is beyond the simple intellectual understanding of the mind. It is in many ways like the difference between "seeing" something and "being".

[ralis]

And that knowing is beyond the simple intellectual understanding of the mind. It is in many ways like the difference between "seeing" something and "being".

 

Given that there is no separation, then why the division? Rigpa appears as all and everything.

[Jeff]

Given that there is no separation, then why the division? Rigpa appears as all and everything.

 

 

Yes, that is what I attempted to describe with "being".  Intellectual understanding would be the "seeing" part.

[ralis]

Yes, that is what I attempted to describe with "being".  Intellectual understanding would be the "seeing" part.

 

Intellect appears as not separate. Have you read any of the texts or participated in a lecture by a Dzogchen teacher such as Norbu?

[Jeff]

Intellect appears as not separate. Have you read any of the texts or participated in a lecture by a Dzogchen teacher such as Norbu?

 

 

Yes.  But, I think you may be misunderstanding me.  I am not trying to define as separate, more like different levels of refinement. Just like the "space between two thoughts" is not rigpa, but it is an aspect of it.

[ralis]

Yes.  But, I think you may be misunderstanding me.  I am not trying to define as separate, more like different levels of refinement. Just like the "space between two thoughts" is not rigpa, but it is an aspect of it.

 

There are no levels whatsoever. You are equating Advaita and Rigpa.

 

The space and the thought are not separate and are not different aspects of.

[Jeff]

There are no levels whatsoever. You are equating Advaita and Rigpa.

 

The space and the thought are not separate and are not different aspects of.

 

 

Maybe try it this way...

 

Can one's perception/knowledge of Rigpa be obscured?  Or is everyone always a knowing budda?

[ralis]

Maybe try it this way...

 

Can one's perception/knowledge of Rigpa be obscured?  Or is everyone always a knowing budda?

 

Of course it is obscured in almost everyone, but is not recognized. Obscured is not what you believe it is.

[Jeff]

Of course it is obscured in almost everyone, but is not recognized. Obscured is not what you believe it is.

 

 

But now you seem to be describing "levels" or separation of recognized and unrecognized...

[ralis]

But now you seem to be describing "levels" or separation of recognized and unrecognized...

In Riga levels do not appear.

[Jeff]

In Riga levels do not appear.

 

 

Agreed, which is what I have said from the beginning...  

[Jeff]

Ralis,

 

Maybe we can agree upon these words from Norbu...

 

After having recognized one's own state, it is necessary to eliminate all doubts about it, not in a merely intellectual way, but rather through experience: instantaneous pure presence or recognition, called rigpa, must ripen and become more stable thanks to the various Longde methods tied to particular experiences of contemplation. Finally, the practitioner's task is to integrate the state of knowledge into all his or her daily activities and to develop that capacity to the point of unifying the energy of the physical body with the energy of the outer world.

 

Chogyal Namkhai Norbu;Adriano Clemente. The Supreme Source: The Fundamental Tantra of the Dzogchen Semde

 

Regards,

Jeff

[Tibetan_Ice]

Jeff and Ralis,

If there are no degrees of Rigpa then why is there a distinction between son clear light and mother clear light?

[Jeff]

Jeff and Ralis,

If there are no degrees of Rigpa then why is there a distinction between son clear light and mother clear light?

 

 

Ti,

 

Good question and to me it goes to the heart of what I have been trying to describe with Ralis.  From my perspective, your distinction is described in my posted Norbu quote above.  There is a "ripening" process and it is not just some mental understanding.  "Mother clear light" is about when "the state of knowledge into all his or her daily activities and to develop that capacity to the point of unifying the energy of the physical body with the energy of the outer world".

 

Regards,

Jeff

[ralis]

What Norbu writes is not easy to understand. The transmission is not verbal.

Edited June 27, 2016 by ralis

[doc benway]

 

Ralis,

 

Maybe we can agree upon these words from Norbu...

 

After having recognized one's own state, it is necessary to eliminate all doubts about it, not in a merely intellectual way, but rather through experience: instantaneous pure presence or recognition, called rigpa, must ripen and become more stable thanks to the various Longde methods tied to particular experiences of contemplation. Finally, the practitioner's task is to integrate the state of knowledge into all his or her daily activities and to develop that capacity to the point of unifying the energy of the physical body with the energy of the outer world.

 

Chogyal Namkhai Norbu;Adriano Clemente. The Supreme Source: The Fundamental Tantra of the Dzogchen Semde

 

Regards,

Jeff

 

Nice quote - note that Rinpoche does not use the words natural state and rigpa interchangeably.

It appears that the word rigpa is being used in this thread to refer to the natural state - that is misleading.

Rigpa is a characteristic of the nature - the self-aware aspect of knowing or recognition. 

It is a challenging word to define and understand but conflating it with the natural state makes matters more confusing.

I find this to be an important point which could ease some of the confusion about what rigpa is or is not.

 

 

Jeff and Ralis,

If there are no degrees of Rigpa then why is there a distinction between son clear light and mother clear light?

Sorry to interject a response here but I'm hoping this could be helpful -

In the Bönpo texts, mother refers to the base (space/emptiness) and son refers to the knowing or recognition aspect - rigpa.

The union of those two is called clear light - clear referring to emptiness and light referring to the pristine self-awareness.

It can get particularly confusing because while clear refers to the empty aspect, the word clarity is often used to denote the awareness aspect. 

Too many words!

[Jeff]

Nice quote - note that Rinpoche does not use the words natural state and rigpa interchangeably.

It appears that the word rigpa is being used in this thread to refer to the natural state - that is misleading.

Rigpa is a characteristic of the nature - the self-aware aspect of knowing or recognition. 

It is a challenging word to define and understand but conflating it with the natural state makes matters more confusing.

I find this to be an important point which could ease some of the confusion about what rigpa is or is not.

...

 

 

Excellent point.  A little more on the "natural state" related to this topic...

 

Listen, great being! Do not meditate visualizing with your mind! Do not turn wisdom into an object of conceptual thought!

It is of no use to mumble formulae or to recite mantras. It is of no use to form ritual gestures with your hands. It is of no use to concentrate on visualizing the radiation and re-absorption [of light]. Remaining in the natural condition, abide in unmovable self-perfection. Being in the natural state, nobody can correct it. Remaining in this authentic condition beyond effort means not acting, and precisely this is the supreme action. Those who understand this have no need to perform the various [ritual] actions: without acting they remain in the fundamental state. Whoever is in the natural state "just as it is" realizes the true meaning ing that cannot be altered. [This is the meaning of teshinnyid]: to means "authentic"; shin means "unaltered"; nyid denotes the authentic condition. There is no enlightenment outside the natural state.

 

Chogyal Namkhai Norbu;Adriano Clemente. The Supreme Source: The Fundamental Tantra of the Dzogchen Semde 

 

As described earlier, it is more about being/residing...

[doc benway]

 

Excellent point.  A little more on the "natural state" related to this topic...

 

Listen, great being! Do not meditate visualizing with your mind! Do not turn wisdom into an object of conceptual thought!

It is of no use to mumble formulae or to recite mantras. It is of no use to form ritual gestures with your hands. It is of no use to concentrate on visualizing the radiation and re-absorption [of light]. Remaining in the natural condition, abide in unmovable self-perfection. Being in the natural state, nobody can correct it. Remaining in this authentic condition beyond effort means not acting, and precisely this is the supreme action. Those who understand this have no need to perform the various [ritual] actions: without acting they remain in the fundamental state. Whoever is in the natural state "just as it is" realizes the true meaning ing that cannot be altered. [This is the meaning of teshinnyid]: to means "authentic"; shin means "unaltered"; nyid denotes the authentic condition. There is no enlightenment outside the natural state.

 

Chogyal Namkhai Norbu;Adriano Clemente. The Supreme Source: The Fundamental Tantra of the Dzogchen Semde 

 

As described earlier, it is more about being/residing...

 

Yes - provided that one is able to be and reside with certainty and stability.

When that supreme blessing is elusive, there are many things that can help - prayer, mantra, mudra, ritual, and so forth.

If we have no need of these things we are indeed fortunate!

[Jeff]

Yes - provided that one is able to be and reside with certainty and stability.

When that supreme blessing is elusive, there are many things that can help - prayer, mantra, mudra, ritual, and so forth.

If we have no need of these things we are indeed fortunate!

 

 

Makes sense... Or maybe from another view. As it "ripens" the perceived obstructions and prayer, mantra, etc... to help deal with them are no longer relevant.

[Wells]

.

Edited July 1, 2016 by Wells

[doc benway]

Considering the clear and simple direction that my way leads,

there is no reason for me anymore to concern myself with the more abstract aspects of dzogchen,

let alone fight about those,

but as everything you are aware of is allegedly just an outside projection of your self,

is every sort of consciousness or awareness not automatically a form of self-awareness?

That's an excellent question and I would say that yes, every sort of consciousness or awareness is an awareness of self. The question is whether or not it is recognized as such. If that knowing or recognizing aspect (rigpa) is not present sounds, lights, and rays are seen as other and that is the basis for ignorance - ma rigpa. If visions are recognized as self, that is the knowing denoted by the word rigpa. And it is not simply an intellectual knowing, it is a direct experience of the knowing or recognition itself - very hard for me to put into words. For me, this is the better usage of the term rigpa - I think it is very misleading to use the word rigpa when what we are really referring to is the natural state. 

 

Anyone interested in this thread would probably enjoy subscribing to Jean Luc Achard's newsletter Khyung Mkhar if you don't already - http://khyungmkhar.blogspot.com/. The latest publication is a translation of the Explanation of the Water Lamp of the Far Reaching Lasso which relates to this idea of vision being a projection of self. His prices are very reasonable and he's an excellent translator of Tibetan.

[C T]

 If visions are recognized as self, that is the knowing denoted by the word rigpa. 

This is very interesting, Steve... especially how the self arise in this process of recognising visions. 

 

Thank you 

[ralis]

Most of the narratives posted here are only abstractions of the underlying process in which the verbal mind distracts from. Verbal instruction serves as a way to point out, but the real experience is in the visual/symbolic introduction. Wells has been pointing that out and yet almost everyone here permits the dominant monkey brain to hold sway and ignore the obvious.

[doc benway]

Most of the narratives posted here are only abstractions of the underlying process in which the verbal mind distracts from. Verbal instruction serves as a way to point out, but the real experience is in the visual/symbolic introduction. Wells has been pointing that out and yet almost everyone here permits the dominant monkey brain to hold sway and ignore the obvious.

 

I'm not quite sure what specifically you are referring to as visual/symbolic introduction but I assume you are referring to the various pointing out instructions for the nature of mind?

Please elaborate if you care to. 

 

I fully agree that the vast majority of thinking and discussion is of relatively little practical value. 

The Bönpos use a variety of methods to introduce the nature of mind, one of the mosts common and effective being zhiné practice with the letter  ཨ  This method is used in both the A-khrid and Zhangzhung Nyengyüd Dzogchen cycles. It's pretty much the same as shamatha and vipassana practice although the visual sense is so much more powerful than the tactile so that I think the method of the ཨ is much more rapidly effective, at least in my experience. It's shocking how powerful it is. 

 

Anyone truly interested in the meaning of things like the natural state and rigpa would get a lot more mileage out of zhiné than discussion and debate, IMO.