Mair-1:1 - Carefree Wandering

[Taoist Texts]

Also, this bit is a incongruous plug, inserted by the earlier editors, who did not dare to throw out the meaningless sentences, and which the translators pretend to make sense ever since. It does not belong here and it does not have any meaning either in the original or in transl.

 

 

- It's a galloping heat haze! - It's a swirl of dust! - It's some living creature blown aloft on a breath of the air! And the blue on blue of the sky - is that the sky's true color? Or is it just the vast distance, going on and on without end, that looks that way? When Peng looks down, he too sees only this and nothing more.

 

野马也，尘埃也，生物之以息相吹也。天之苍苍，其正色邪？其远而无所至极邪？其视下也亦若是，则已矣。

[Taoist Texts]

And I think part of what interested a [very] few was to maybe look at the chinese...  We don't need to get in great debate but your point about the quote that should be been extended makes sense.  So here is the section in question... and 'mingling' is a sometimes translated as a tree or turtle but given the very next comparison is a tree of much longer life, something other than a reference to a tree would make sense in the former case.  

 

而彭祖乃今以久特聞、衆人匹之、不亦悲乎。

 

 

Mair

I agree, its a turtle.

 

as to the Pathetic Peng it goes like this

 

(The turtle and the tree live thousand of years) 而but彭祖 Peng乃今nowadays以久特聞 is famous for his longevity、衆人everybody 匹equates之 him (to turtle and tree)、不but is not he亦also 悲 pathetic乎?。

 

(because he lived mere 800)

Edited July 1, 2016 by Taoist Texts

[Rara]

My take, on ZZ, is that every being is as-is. there is no inherent comparison. Life creates many colors and types. What manifests is 10,000 things.

 

From the ever-creative perspective of ZZ: are you 'living' or are you 'life' itself? he is forever creating a riddle...

Ok but ny direct question is, if P'eng was human having but lived so long, what is Chuang Tzu's point when speaking down against those that tried to imitate him?

[Marblehead]

I agree, its a turtle.

 

 

I would agree with it being turtle too simply because Chuang Tzu used turtle in other stories as well.

[dawei]

Ok but ny direct question is, if P'eng was human having but lived so long, what is Chuang Tzu's point when speaking down against those that tried to imitate him?

 

While I like how TT has translated this, if we follow the majority of translators that ZZ is talking down against those that tried to imitate him... To me, because ZZ doesn't advocate emulating anyone or anything else.   I see in him the kind of reductionism that says 'not-two' and then 'not-one'.  The definition of anything is only relative to how it is perceived.   So the best you could do is imitate a perception but lose naturalness in exchange.

[Marblehead]

Side note:  I find it hard to accept that Chuang Tzu was talking down against those who seek longevity or even immortality.  I think he is more suggesting that it is a waste of time.

[Shidifen]

So do you think Chuang Tzu sees humans striving for longevity as futile? I'm trying to understand because if P'eng could cultivate to the point of living so long, why not others?

 

Or are these others perhaps "wannabes", for lack of a better word?

 

From my reading of the Daodejing and Zhuangzi, their main point is to not try to be something you are not; just be yourself. If you try being something you are not, then you are going against your own nature.

 

P'eng was supposedly an adept, he had an inherent ability, he was born with his longevity. A chapter of the Zhuangzi mentions that there are some things that are impossible to teach. You can get the basic idea from someone, but there is something you have to have within yourself to be able to achieve it perfectly. It's the story of the wheelwright. So even if P'eng left some writing to tell how he lived for so long, whatever he wrote wouldn't be the complete instructions. So how pathetic would it be to waste the few years you have trying to get more than you won't?

[Daeluin]

I think he begins with showing us that we are who we are. Then that there are many of us, in all different shapes and sizes and purposes, and that there are natural frictions as we relate to each other and change. And ultimately that we have the ability to merge with totality, where we are all as one.

 

This being in the first chapter sets the stage for an exploration of how we may work to fully embody our individual wholeness in an endeavor to settle into oneness, without falling prey to the myriad energy traps along the way.

[Marblehead]

A chapter of the Zhuangzi mentions that there are some things that are impossible to teach. You can get the basic idea from someone, but there is something you have to have within yourself to be able to achieve it perfectly. It's the story of the wheelwright.

There are many stories regarding this concept.  Hopefully we will get to all of them.

[Marblehead]

I think he begins with showing us that we are who we are. Then that there are many of us, in all different shapes and sizes and purposes, and that there are natural frictions as we relate to each other and change. And ultimately that we have the ability to merge with totality, where we are all as one.

 

This being in the first chapter sets the stage for an exploration of how we may work to fully embody our individual wholeness in an endeavor to settle into oneness, without falling prey to the myriad energy traps along the way.

 

Very good.  I can't recall that this is directly stated but many of the stories lead to that understanding.

[Jim D.]

Take a look at an example I posted called, "It is a matter of perspective." I think I posted this in the Newcomer Corner. This may help support MH's making his point that it is a matter of perspective.

[Rara]

While I like how TT has translated this, if we follow the majority of translators that ZZ is talking down against those that tried to imitate him... To me, because ZZ doesn't advocate emulating anyone or anything else. I see in him the kind of reductionism that says 'not-two' and then 'not-one'. The definition of anything is only relative to how it is perceived. So the best you could do is imitate a perception but lose naturalness in exchange.

So some could just naturally live a long time and others just couldn't? So why try to be what you are not? Is this what you mean...?

[Rara]

Side note: I find it hard to accept that Chuang Tzu was talking down against those who seek longevity or even immortality. I think he is more suggesting that it is a waste of time.

Same difference but I like this regardless

[Rara]

From my reading of the Daodejing and Zhuangzi, their main point is to not try to be something you are not; just be yourself. If you try being something you are not, then you are going against your own nature.

 

P'eng was supposedly an adept, he had an inherent ability, he was born with his longevity. A chapter of the Zhuangzi mentions that there are some things that are impossible to teach. You can get the basic idea from someone, but there is something you have to have within yourself to be able to achieve it perfectly. It's the story of the wheelwright. So even if P'eng left some writing to tell how he lived for so long, whatever he wrote wouldn't be the complete instructions. So how pathetic would it be to waste the few years you have trying to get more than you won't?

Don't tell the qigong instructors this, their marketing will hit rock bottom!

 

Hehe. Thanks for your reply...yourself and dawei have been very helpful to my understanding of this.

 

Also, as it said in the introduction, ZZ lived to what, around 80 supposedly? Hardly groundbreaking, but not a bad run either way

Edited July 3, 2016 by Rara

[Marblehead]

Also, as it said in the introduction, ZZ lived to what, around 80 supposedly? Hardly groundbreaking, but not a bad run either way

 

But still a ripe old age for the time period.  In Europe during this time period the average age was in the high thirties.

[Jim D.]

Nowadays, I just get up and live. But if my financial status changes, well that's another thing. If I can't pay my bills then there is insecurity because no one is going to pick up the slack and pay them for me. There is nothing carefree about being homeless, unless your Schizophrenic.

 

I was raised with a strong work ethic. So, there are a lot years of being conditioned that you're a man if you can provide. We in the West have become "human doings," rather than human beings. And those of us that have had to rely on Public Aid, have learned that you are not going to get away from feeling dependent on the State...unless living on the State has been multi-generational for you.

 

I am a Care Free Wonderer becasuse I still work at the age of 70, and am on Social Security and a small pension, and my wife works part time, and live in a home that was put on the market as a short sale. We have a very low mortgage.

 

Take a look at the documentary on Buddhist Monks that live in the mountains. Now that is care free. But take a look at their teeth...the ones that they have left. Where do they go to take a shit or piss. What about the loneliness, and winters? What getting water up to your hut. Nothing ethereal about it.

 

I don't see them as enlightened. I see them as hermits.

[Shidifen]

Don't tell the qigong instructors this, their marketing will hit rock bottom!

 

You don't see too many Chinese on the 'World's Oldest Person' list.

 

I'm sure there is something in the Leizi or Zhuangzi about the futility of trying to strive for immortality or extra longevity of the physical body. All the alchemy and other stuff attributed to Daoism has nothing to do with the Daoism expounded by Laozi or Zhuangzi. But Qigong couldn't hurt as long as you're not expecting some miraculous hocus-pocus to come from it. My opinion...

[Shidifen]

I don't see them as enlightened. I see them as hermits.

 

I have to find some time to sit under a tree and flip through the big three Dao books...

 

Somewhere in one of them, Zhuanzi most likely, there is something about the stupidity, for want of a better word, of cutting yourself off from the world around you.

 

It's school holiday time here and I really wish I could be stupid...

[Rara]

You don't see too many Chinese on the 'World's Oldest Person' list.

 

I'm sure there is something in the Leizi or Zhuangzi about the futility of trying to strive for immortality or extra longevity of the physical body. All the alchemy and other stuff attributed to Daoism has nothing to do with the Daoism expounded by Laozi or Zhuangzi. But Qigong couldn't hurt as long as you're not expecting some miraculous hocus-pocus to come from it. My opinion...

Agreed!

 

I also have the same opinion of self-defence martial arts. Emphasis on the word "art". After years of training, I don't feel that Kung Fu is all that effective in combat. It looks beautiful though, when choreographed well, and the forms are very close to Tai Chi.

[Rara]

Nowadays, I just get up and live. But if my financial status changes, well that's another thing. If I can't pay my bills then there is insecurity because no one is going to pick up the slack and pay them for me. There is nothing carefree about being homeless, unless your Schizophrenic.

 

I was raised with a strong work ethic. So, there are a lot years of being conditioned that you're a man if you can provide. We in the West have become "human doings," rather than human beings. And those of us that have had to rely on Public Aid, have learned that you are not going to get away from feeling dependent on the State...unless living on the State has been multi-generational for you.

 

I am a Care Free Wonderer becasuse I still work at the age of 70, and am on Social Security and a small pension, and my wife works part time, and live in a home that was put on the market as a short sale. We have a very low mortgage.

 

Take a look at the documentary on Buddhist Monks that live in the mountains. Now that is care free. But take a look at their teeth...the ones that they have left. Where do they go to take a shit or piss. What about the loneliness, and winters? What getting water up to your hut. Nothing ethereal about it.

 

I don't see them as enlightened. I see them as hermits.

Yeah. I choose central heating and a shower over living on rocks.

[Shidifen]

I just remembered that Mair has a section in the back of his book where he put passages he doesn't consider to be genuine.

The following passages have been removed from the main body of the text (where their positions are marked by ellipses) either because they are spurious or because they are later commentaries and other types of interpolations that have been mistakenly incorporated into the text. In order to provide a complete translation of the standard edition of the Chuang Tzu, however, they are recorded here.

The next section goes after "When the P'eng looks down at the sky from above, it must appear just the same as when we look up..."

 

Moreover, if water has not accumulated to a sufficient depth, it will not have the strength to support a large boat. Pour a cup of water into a low spot on the floor and you can make a boat out of a mustard seed. But if you place the cup in the water it will get stuck because the boat will be large in relation to the shallowness of the water. Similarly, if the wind has not accumulated to a sufficient density, it will not have the strength to support large wings. Therefore, only at an altitude of ninety thousand tricents, with so much wind beneath it, can the P'eng ride on the wind. With its back touching the blue sky and no obstacles in its path, the P 'eng heads for the south.

[Rara]

So P'eng isn't human-like at all?

[Marblehead]

So P'eng isn't human-like at all?

 

I will suggest that he is talking directly about man (humans) metaphorically.

 

Every time he used the other animals in nature he will be talking about the attributes of man.

 

Most of the stories are fiction.  The concepts are non-fiction.

[Jim D.]

I'm the Wanderer, Yeah, I'm the Wanderer...Well, I the kinda guy that likes roam around. Never in one place. I roam from town to town. :-)

[Marblehead]

I am the Wondering Taoist.

 

I wonder about stuff.

 

But I am exactly where I am wherever I am.