Mair-1:1 - Carefree Wandering

[Shidifen]

Here's part one of section one. I can't really enter any discussion translation wise as I'm a bit pressed for time at the moment, but I will get there. I like comparing different translations for a better understanding. Or to find someone who agrees with my understanding... :-)
 
CAREFREE WANDERING
 
The Chuang Tzu begins with an examination of the relativity of big and little. The benefits that result from creative spontaneity are illustrated by several of the most memorable tales in the book.

In the darkness of the Northern Ocean, there is a fish named K'un. The K'un is so big that no one knows how many thousands of tricents [three hundred paces] its body extends. After it metamorphoses into a bird, its name becomes P 'eng. The P'eng is so huge that no one knows how many thousands of tricents its back stretches. Rousing itself to flight, its wings are like clouds suspended in the sky. When the seas stir, the P'eng prepares for its journey to the Southern Ocean, the Lake of Heaven.

In the words of The Drolleries of Ch'i, a record of marvels, "On its journey to the Southern Ocean, the P'eng beats the water with its wings for three thousand tricents, then it rises up on a whirlwind to a height of ninety thousand tricents and travels on the jet streams of late summer."

There galloping gusts and motes of dust are blown about by the breath of living organisms. Is azure the true color of the sky? Or is the sky so distant that its farthest limits can never be reached? When the P'eng looks down at the sky from above, it must appear just the same as when we look up...

A cicada and a dovelet laughed at the P'eng, saying, "Wings aflutter, we fly up until we land in an elm or a dalbergia tree. Sometimes, when we don't make it, we just fall back to the ground and that's that. What's the use of flying up ninety thousand tricents to go south?"

If you 're going on an outing to the verdant suburbs you only need to take along three meals and you'll still come back with a full stomach. If you 're traveling a hundred tricents, you need to husk enough grain for an overnight stay. But if you're journeying a thousand tricents, you've got to set aside three months' worth of grain. What do these two creatures know?

Small knowledge is no match for great knowledge, nor is a short lifespan a match for a long one. How do we know this is so? The mushroom that sprouts in the morning and dies by evening doesn't know the difference between night and day. The locust doesn't know the difference between spring and autumn. These are examples of short lifespans. In the southern part of the state of Ch 'u, there is a tortoise called Dark Spirit for whom spring and autumn each lasts five hundred years. In high antiquity, there was a large cedrela tree for which spring and autumn each lasted eight thousand years. These are examples of long lifespans. Nowadays Progenitor P'eng is famous for his more than seven hundred years of longevity. Isn't it pathetic that people try to emulate him?

A question put by T'ang, the first emperor of the Shang dynasty, to his wise minister Chi is similar. T 'ang asked, "Do up, down, and the four directions have a limit? " `Beyond their limitlessness there is another limitlessness, said Chi. "In the barren north there is a dark sea, the Lake of Heaven. In the sea there is a fish named K'un that is several thousand tricents in breadth, but no one knows its length. There is also a bird named P'eng whose back is like Mount T'ai and whose wings are like clouds suspended in the sky. It rises upon a twisting whirlwind to a height of ninety thousand tricents, pierces the clouds and then heads south on its journey to the distant Southern Ocean with the blue sky touching its back.

'A marsh sparrow laughs at the P'eng, saying, 'Where does he think he's going? I spring up into the air and come back down after not much more than a few yards. Flitting about amidst the bushes and brambles, this is the ultimate in flying! So where does he think he's going?'

"This shows the difference between the great and the small."

Thus there are those whose knowledge qualifies them for a minor bureaucratic appointment, those whose conduct is suitable for overseeing a village, and those whose virtue befits them for rulership and who can win the confidence of an entire country. Their self-estimation is like that of the marsh sparrow, so Master Sung Jung smiled at them complacently.

Here was a man who would neither feel flattered if the whole world praised him nor frustrated if the whole world censured him. Master Sung was able to be like this simply because he could tell the difference between what was intrinsic and what was extrinsic, because he made a distinction between honor and disgrace. Although he was not embroiled in worldly affairs, still there was something that he was unable to achieve.

Master Lieh could ride upon the wind wherever he pleased, drifting marvelously, and returning only after fifteen days. Although he was not embroiled in the pursuit of blessings and thus was able to dispense with walking, still there was something that he had to rely upon.

Supposing there were someone who could ride upon the truth of heaven and earth, who could chariot upon the  transformations of the six vital breaths and thereby go wandering in infinity, what would he have to rely on?

Therefore, it is said that the ultimate man has no self, the spiritual person has no accomplishment, and the sage has no name.
 
*These are Mair's notes for that section, for those interested.
 
1. K'un. The K'un has often been likened to Leviathan.

2. tricents. A tricent is three hundred paces, exactly equivalent to an ancient Chinese (roughly one third of a mile ["a thousand paces"]). Throughout the translation, is consistently rendered by " tricent. "

3. P'eng. The P'eng has been compared to the roc of Western mythology and the garuda of Indian mythology.

4. Progenitor P'eng. The Chinese Methuselah who lived in prehistoric times.
 
5. virtue. In Confucian or conventional contexts, & is translated as "virtue." In Taoistic or unconventional contexts, it is translated as "integrity." The most etymologically precise equivalent in English is the archaic word "dough[tiness]. "

6. Sung Jung. The same philosopher as Sung Chien who is named in the final chapter of this book.

7. Master Lieh. Lieh Tzu, the best-known philosopher of early Taoism after Lao Tzu ("Old Master") and Chuang Tzu ("Master Chuang"). See chapter 32.

 

[Taoist Texts]

Nowadays Progenitor P'eng is famous for his more than seven hundred years of longevity. Isn't it pathetic that people try to emulate him?

 

why is that pathetic?

[Shidifen]

Here's Lin Yutang's translation.

 

Small knowledge has not the compass of great knowledge any more than a short year has the length of a long year. How can we tell that this is so? The fungus plant of a morning knows not the alternation of day and night. The cicada knows not the alternation of spring and autumn. Theirs are short years. But in the south of Ch'u there is a mingling (tree) whose spring and autumn are each of five hundred years' duration. And in former days there was a large tree which had a spring and autumn each of eight thousand years. Yet, P'eng Tsu is known for reaching a great age and is still, alas! an object of envy to all!

 

It's pathetic partly, I think, because people who live only for one hundred and twenty years shouldn't expect to be able to match the knowledge or experience of someone who lived almost eight hundred years. Progenitor P'eng was an adept in self cultivation. There is a belief that he never died because he was seen seventy years after his disappearance. He supposedly had forty-nine wives and fifty-four sons.

 

James Legge ends that section with -

 

And Peng Zu is the one man renowned to the present day for his length of life: if all men were (to wish) to match him, would they not be miserable?

[Taoist Texts]

It's pathetic partly, I think, because people who live only for one hundred and twenty years shouldn't expect to be able to match the knowledge or experience of someone who lived almost eight hundred years. Progenitor P'eng was an adept in self cultivation. There is a belief that he never died because he was seen seventy years after his disappearance. He supposedly had forty-nine wives and fifty-four sons.

 

Thats a totally reasonable explanation based on these 3 translations. Except the three tenors  translators, got the meaning wrong. I looked at the original closely and here ZZ says that Peng-zu who lived mere 800 years is pathetic compared to the turtle and the tree, who live thousands of years.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peng_Zu

[Taoist Texts]

Another gap in logic is between these para:

 

1.Supposing there were someone who could ride upon the truth of heaven and earth, who could chariot upon the  transformations of the six vital breaths and thereby go wandering in infinity, what would he have to rely on?

2.Therefore, it is said that the ultimate man has no self, the spiritual person has no accomplishment, and the sage has no name.

 

Whats the reasoning between 1 and 2?

[Shidifen]

Well spotted on your answer to your first question. The whole chapter is about contrast between 'big' and 'small'. I took the men of now to be the 'smal'l and P'eng to be the 'big'; you showed P'eng to be the 'small' and the tree and tortise to be the 'big'.

[Marblehead]

Well spotted on your answer to your first question. The whole chapter is about contrast between 'big' and 'small'. I took the men of now to be the 'smal'l and P'eng to be the 'big'; you showed P'eng to be the 'small' and the tree and tortise to be the 'big'.

 

The translation is consistent with other translations I have read.

 

I would point out that this is story-telling; meant to be taken figuratively, not literally.

 

As well as "contrast between 'big' and 'small', we are reading about different perspectives. 

 

Peng's world is different from the world of the cicada's world.  Therefore their perspectives of reality will be very different.

 

These varying perspectives also apply to man.  Some are happy in their small enclosed world whereas others seek the expanse of the universe.

[Taoist Texts]

The translation is consistent with other translations I have read.

Of course it is, its plagiarism and group-think all around.

 

Take this para:

 

A cicada and a dovelet laughed at the P'eng, saying, "Wings aflutter, we fly up until we land in an elm or a dalbergia tree. Sometimes, when we don't make it, we just fall back to the ground and that's that. What's the use of flying up ninety thousand tricents to go south?"

If you 're going on an outing to the verdant suburbs you only need to take along three meals and you'll still come back with a full stomach. If you 're traveling a hundred tricents, you need to husk enough grain for an overnight stay. But if you're journeying a thousand tricents, you've got to set aside three months' worth of grain. What do these two creatures know?

 

None of them (or their readers) ever understood that this non-sequitur of 

 

 

If you 're going on an outing to the verdant suburbs you only need to take along three meals and you'll still come back with a full stomach. If you 're traveling a hundred tricents, you need to husk enough grain for an overnight stay. But if you're journeying a thousand tricents, you've got to set aside three months' worth of grain

 

 

is actually a continuation of the cicada's and dovlet's speech and should be included in the quotation marks. Then instead of a non-sequitur it will become a coherent argument by the cicada explaining why shorter trips are preferable to long ones. You dont need food supply on shorter trips, thats why.

[Marblehead]

Yes, both perspectives, Peng's and the cicada's, are valid.  Big vs small, short vs long, etc are the same.  There is no contradiction, only perspective views.

[Shidifen]

is actually a continuation of the cicada's and dovlet's speech and should be included in the quotation marks. Then instead of a non-sequitur it will become a coherent argument by the cicada explaining why shorter trips are preferable to long ones. You dont need food supply on shorter trips, thats why.

 

The point of the story, though, is that the cicada and dovelet have no concept of the necessity of carrying supplies, just as they have no concept of the need to fly high to catch the jetstream to fly long distances.

 

Can you show a translation by someone who agrees with your hypothesis?

[Marblehead]

The point of the story, though, is that the cicada and dovelet have no concept of the necessity of carrying supplies, just as they have no concept of the need to fly high to catch the jetstream to fly long distances.

 

 

Yes, that is one of the concepts offered.  Again, perspective based on their world view.

[Taoist Texts]

The point of the story, though, is that the cicada and dovelet have no concept of the necessity of carrying supplies, just as they have no concept of the need to fly high to catch the jetstream to fly long distances.

 

 

May be).

 

 

Can you show a translation by someone who agrees with your hypothesis? 

 

unfortunately not. like i said, in translation industry the groupthink reigns. Mair wanted to provide something new but it turned out same old. In general, while the recognized translators get the most of ZZ's text right like 75%, they certainly do not understand the overall meaning, and they certainly get 1/4 of the text wrong. The piece you posted contains  some more translating mistakes. i can correct those if there is interest.

[Shidifen]

unfortunately not. like i said, in translation industry the groupthink reigns. Mair wanted to provide something new but it turned out same old. In general, while the recognized translators get the most of ZZ's text right like 75%, they certainly do not understand the overall meaning, and they certainly get 1/4 of the text wrong. The piece you posted contains  some more translating mistakes. i can correct those if there is interest.

 

dawei started the thread as a vehicle to examine Mair's translation and compare it to others if there is disagreement on his interpretation. I think if you have a disagreement with his interpretation you should jump in with it. Anyone bothering to read the thread would be interested.

[Shidifen]

Yes, that is one of the concepts offered.  Again, perspective based on their world view.

 

That's why chapter 17 is my favorite. It basically distills the entire book into one small block.

[dust]

dawei started the thread as a vehicle to examine Mair's translation and compare it to others if there is disagreement on his interpretation. I think if you have a disagreement with his interpretation you should jump in with it. Anyone bothering to read the thread would be interested.

 

I agree. Though I think we'd do better to process the book chapter by chapter in devoted threads, as was the original intention. I'd imagine more interest/participation that way..?

[Marblehead]

That's why chapter 17 is my favorite. It basically distills the entire book into one small block.

 

For whatever the reason that came off to me as funny.

 

If we use only that chapter as a standard then it must be said that I still have a long way to travel.

[Daeluin]

For comparison, here is Brook Ziporyn's translation:

 

There is a fish in the Northern Oblivion named Kun, and this Kun is quite huge, spanning who knows how many thousands of miles. He transforms into a bird named Peng, and this Peng has quite a back on him, stretching who knows how many thousands of miles. When he rouses himself and sours into the air, his wings are like clouds draped across the heavens. The oceans start to churn, the this bird begins his journey toward the Southern Oblivion. The Southern Oblivion - that is the Pool of Heaven.

 

The Equalizing Jokebook, a record of many wonders, reports: "When Peng journeys to the Southern Oblivion, the waters ripple for three thousand miles. Spiraling aloft, he ascends ninety thousand milds and continues his journey without rest for half a year."

 

- It's a galloping heat haze! - It's a swirl of dust! - It's some living creature blown aloft on a breath of the air! And the blue on blue of the sky - is that the sky's true color? Or is it just the vast distance, going on and on without end, that looks that way? When Peng looks down, he too sees only this and nothing more.

 

Now, if water is not piled up thickly enough, it has no power to support a large vessel. Overturn a cupful of water in a whole in the road and you can float a mustard seed in it like a boat, but if you put the cup itself in there it will just get stuck. The water is too shallow for so large a vessel. And if the wind is not piled up thickly enough, it has no power to support Peng's enormous wings. That is why he needs to put ninety thousand miles of air beneath him. Only then can he ride the wind, bearing the blue of heaven on his back and unobstructed on all sides, and bake his way south.

 

The cicada and the fledgling dove laugh at him, saying, "We scurry up into the air, leaping from the elm to the sandalwood tree, and when we don't quite make it we just plummet to the ground. What's all this about ascending ninety thousand miles and heading south?"

 

If you go out on a day trip, you can return with your belly still full. If you're traveling a hundred miles, you'll need to bring a day's meal. And if you're traveling a thousand miles, you'll need to save up provisions for three months before you go. What do these two little creatures know? A small consciousness cannot keep up with a vast consciousness; short duration cannot keep up with long duration. How do we know? The morning mushroom knows nothing of the noontide; the winter cicada knows nothing of the spiring and autumn. This is what is means by short duration. In southern Chu there is a tree called Mingling, for which five hundred years is as a single spring, and another five hundred years is a single autumn. In ancient times, there was even one massive tree whose spring and autumn were each eight thousand years long. And yet nowadays, Pengzu alone has a special reputation for longevity, and everyone tries to match him. Pathetic, isn't it?

 

Tang's questions to Ji also have something about this:

 

In the barren northland there is a dark ocean, called the Pool of Heaven. There is a fish there several thousand miles across with a length that is as yet unknown named Kun. There's a bird there named Peng with a back like Mt. Tai and wings like clouds draped across the heavens. Whorling upward, he ascends ninety thousand miles, breaking through the clouds and bearing the blue of the sky on his back, and then heads south, finally arriving at the Southern Oblivion. The quail laughs at him, saying, "Where does he thing he's Going? I leap into the air with all my might, but before I get farther than a few yards I drop to the ground. My twittering and fluttering between the bushes and branches is the utmost form of flying! So where does he thing he's going?" Such is the difference between the large and the small.

 

And he whose understanding is sufficient to fill some one post, whose deeds meet the needs of some one village, or whose Virtuosity pleases some one ruler, thus winning him a country to preside over, sees himself in just the same way. Even Song Rongzi would burst out laughing at such a man. If the whole world happened to praise Song Rongzi, he would not be goaded onward; if the whole world condemned him, he would not be deterred. He simply made a sharp and fixed division between the inner and the outer and clearly discerned where true honor and disgrace are to be found.  He did not involve himself in anxious calculations in his dealings with the world. But nonetheless, there was still a sense in which he was not yet really firmly planted.

 

Now, Liezi rode forth upon the wind, weightlessly graceful, not heading back until fifteen days had passed. He did not involve himself in anxious calculations about bringing good fortune to himself. Although this allowed him to avoid the exertions of walking, there was still something he needed to depend on.

 

But suppose you were to chariot upon what is true both to Heaven and to earth, riding atop the back-and-forth of the six atmospheric breaths, so that your wandering could nowhere be brought to a halt. You would then be depending on - what? Thus I say, the Consummate Person has no fixed identity, the Spirit Man has no particular merit, the Sage has no one name.

 

What comes to mind for me is an exploration of scope:

 

• How the scope of one entity differs from that of another.
• How this difference in scope is sometimes mistaken as one entity presumes to emulate another with a different scope than their own.
• How this failure to emulate something else can easily lead to judgment between things that are assumed to be similar when they are not.
• How scope can indeed be changed and grown if one does understand the difference and prepares what is necessary for the change, as in the different preparations necessary for a large journey and a small journey.
• We observe how even in understanding how scope may be changed, we often place limitations based on what we believe is possible, only trying to attain what has precedence rather than exploring beyond that.
• We observe one who does go beyond those set precedents and is able to fly, and too observe that he still depends on certain resources to maintain this extraordinary scope, and thus even in being able to fly, his freedoms are limited in some fashion.
• Then we look at the largest scope within existence, that of heaven and earth and the six directions of qi which form the natural changes between heaven and earth, and ponder the implications of this scope. Is there anything restricting the freedom of one who is able to merge their scope with such forces, one who rests only upon all that is at its most basic layers?
• And too, if one is able to unite with these most primal forces, does one's identity maintain as before, or has it merged with those primal forces along with the merging of scope?
• Thus also raising the overarching idea that change of one's scope is also change of who and what one is.
• There are further implications here - we all rest upon these primal forces already. Perhaps there are some limitations given through nature that grant us the scope we are born with. Yet are there not ways we have shaped and limited our scope artificially, in our minds? Why?

[Daeluin]

Another gap in logic is between these para:

1.Supposing there were someone who could ride upon the truth of heaven and earth, who could chariot upon the  transformations of the six vital breaths and thereby go wandering in infinity, what would he have to rely on?

2.Therefore, it is said that the ultimate man has no self, the spiritual person has no accomplishment, and the sage has no name.

Whats the reasoning between 1 and 2?

 

Was I able to answer this in my last points above?

[Taoist Texts]

Yes you did Daeluin thanks. Anybody else thinks that the fishbird is the ecliptic? It flies from north to south and up from Earthly ocean to Heavenly ocean during spring-summer, there it descends, turns back into fish and swims back from south to north.

is the ecliptic. It flies from north to south and up from Earthly ocean to Heavenly ocean during spring-summer, there it descends, turns back into fish and swims back from south to north.

[Shidifen]

I agree. Though I think we'd do better to process the book chapter by chapter in devoted threads, as was the original intention. I'd imagine more interest/participation that way..?

 No worries. I'll set them out as in Mair's book. I'll try to add his notes to each thread by Saturday night.

[Rara]

It's pathetic partly, I think, because people who live only for one hundred and twenty years shouldn't expect to be able to match the knowledge or experience of someone who lived almost eight hundred years. Progenitor P'eng was an adept in self cultivation. There is a belief that he never died because he was seen seventy years after his disappearance. He supposedly had forty-nine wives and fifty-four sons.

 

James Legge ends that section with -

 

And Peng Zu is the one man renowned to the present day for his length of life: if all men were (to wish) to match him, would they not be miserable?

So do you think Chuang Tzu sees humans striving for longevity as futile? I'm trying to understand because if P'eng could cultivate to the point of living so long, why not others?

 

Or are these others perhaps "wannabes", for lack of a better word?

[dawei]

May be).

 

 

unfortunately not. like i said, in translation industry the groupthink reigns. Mair wanted to provide something new but it turned out same old. In general, while the recognized translators get the most of ZZ's text right like 75%, they certainly do not understand the overall meaning, and they certainly get 1/4 of the text wrong. The piece you posted contains  some more translating mistakes. i can correct those if there is interest.

 

And I think part of what interested a [very] few was to maybe look at the chinese...  We don't need to get in great debate but your point about the quote that should be been extended makes sense.  So here is the section in question... and 'mingling' is a sometimes translated as a tree or turtle but given the very next comparison is a tree of much longer life, something other than a reference to a tree would make sense in the former case.  

 

I like the fact that Mair will make a stand and translate his choice as part of the work.   In the end, trees do play an important part in ZZ's relatively, shifting perspectivism.

 

小知不及大知、小年不及大年。奚以知其然也。朝菌不知晦朔、蟪蛄不知春秋、此小年也。楚之南有冥靈者、以五百歲爲春、五百歲爲秋。上古有大椿者、以八千歲爲春、八千歲爲秋。而彭祖乃今以久特聞、衆人匹之、不亦悲乎。

 

 

Mair

 

Small knowledge is no match for great knowledge, nor is a short lifespan a match for a long one. How do we know this is so? The mushroom that sprouts in the morning and dies by evening doesn't know the difference between night and day. The locust doesn't know the difference between spring and autumn. These are examples of short lifespans. In the southern part of the state of Ch 'u, there is a tortoise called Dark Spirit for whom spring and autumn each lasts five hundred years. In high antiquity, there was a large cedrela tree for which spring and autumn each lasted eight thousand years. These are examples of long lifespans. Nowadays Progenitor P'eng is famous for his more than seven hundred years of longevity. Isn't it pathetic that people try to emulate him?

[dawei]

So do you think Chuang Tzu sees humans striving for longevity as futile? I'm trying to understand because if P'eng could cultivate to the point of living so long, why not others?

 

Or are these others perhaps "wannabes", for lack of a better word?

 

Realize that the P'eng you reference is not the bird but a man... or you knew that...

[Rara]

Realize that the P'eng you reference is not the bird but a man... or you knew that...

Sure. Exactly my angle with this question...

[dawei]

Sure. Exactly my angle with this question...

 

My take, on ZZ, is that every being is as-is.    there is no inherent comparison.  Life creates many colors and types.  What manifests is 10,000 things.

 

From the ever-creative perspective of ZZ: are you 'living' or are you 'life' itself?   he is forever creating a riddle...