What happens when we die

[thelerner]

 

I forget the title but I read a very convincing book on the subject of children who remembered past lives, done by a skeptical university psych department in the U.S that didn't particularly want to prove anything.  The case above was pretty much a norm.  Much evidence for certain young kids remembering and having factual evidence of past lives is huge.  After searching for and researching cases across the U.S, double checking memories, they even found evidence of wounds, often death wounds that followed into the new kids life.  Interestingly enough as they got older most forgot there old lives.

 

The book wasn't pop New Age either, but a serious look at a phenomena.  At one point the researcher went to India and found it was not considered strange, rather it was almost a norm.

 

 

Over the years I've looked into convincing cases like that over and over and after digging deeply enough they always fell apart, usually based on presuppositions and flawed methodologies. I've finally given up, considering the lack of convincing data to be supportive of my meditative experiences which suggest there's no "me" to keep coming back.

 

But...I could be wrong.

 

 

Here's the book I was thinking of and picked up from the library years ago: https://www.amazon.com/Life-Before-Childrens-Memories-Previous/dp/031237674X

Here's a review from it which echoes my thoughts:

5.0 out of 5 starsStraightforward, unbiased presentation

By Stephen Sakellarios on May 30, 2006

Format: Hardcover In "Life Before Life," Dr. Jim Tucker, successor to Dr. Ian Stevenson at the University of Virginia Division of Personality Studies, presents their work in a way that is rigorous enough for the scientific community, and yet readable by the lay audience. Dr. Tucker's approach is disarmingly straightforward, as he rationally examines all sides of the issue. In a non-threatening manner, he presents evidence which, if taken seriously, is inherently radical. Where I would characterize the stance of mainstream science with red flags like "in denial," Dr. Tucker calmly acknowledges that mainstream science is by nature conservative; where I would say something like "reincarnation has been proven, already, let's get on the stick," Dr. Tucker carefully explains what the alternative interpretations are, the extent to which they are plausible, and the extent to which they probably are not.

 

If it were possible to convince mainstream science with a calm, rational, non-threatening explanation, this book would do it. To borrow from something philosophy professor Dr. Robert Almeder told me when I interviewed him for "In Another Life," if it were possible to calmly and rationally explain to a man that his brother is a murderer, without his going into denial and ridiculing you, then Dr. Tucker is the man who could do it.

 

In short, the information is here. The work has been done, and the results are in. To use one of Dr. Stevenson's own analogies, the tennis player has hit the winning shot, and it was in-bounds. Now it is up to the scientific community, and the society at large, to come to grips with it. In order to do that, they will have to admit that much of our currently-accepted philosophy is wrong, psychology is wrong, genetics is wrong, and much more. It's like the 75-cent accounting error that leads to the international hackers--if the materialistic view of the world is correct, this research simply shouldn't be there. But it is, and Dr. Tucker is just sitting down with you on a fine Sunday afternoon with a glass of tea, and telling you. (If you don't cup your hands over your ears and say "yah, yah, yah," though, you may spill your tea.)

 

The book leaves open the mechanism behind the memories.  It may not be reincarnation but some other phenomena.

 

 

Its not what comes back, more about what is left behind. Some die and leave a lasting, altruistic or beneficial legacy which grows lots of other healthy, beneficial legacies, so in this way the person takes 'rebirth' from the actions of this life. It could happen that some leave shit behind, and this can screw many generations to come too, especially those that steal the innocence and purity of women and children, or make victims of others' goodness. 

 

As its known, emotions, good or bad, are not the person - these are energies, and their imprints can go on indefinitely. 

 

 

Yeah, it's a neat book.

 

heaven(s), hell(s), purgatory, reincarnation, off/gone/kaput, Oneness w/ God.., physical, mental and spiritual immortalities, going ghost, rainbow body.. working not reincarnate and go kaput..?

 

Most of our beliefs are cultural and/or religious.  Not too much in the way of science and what there is, is much debated.  

 

Though the above book mentioned is solidly researched.  I think it can be stated as fact, that some young children have memories of another life and give (unknown) details that can be independently corroborated.  

 

 

Edited June 28, 2016 by thelerner

[Karl]

Dead-the end.

[Marblehead]

I'm just going to die when I die.

 

No one will have to put up with me any more.

[WisteriaWinds]

You survive death but not as a thing your current egoic self would identify with.

And I don't think you come back here because neither You nor Here are particularly important things/concepts. Theres no cosmic need for a return to geographical earth anymore than someone moving to Georgia would need to return to Ohio.

[Aetherous]

Most go to hades. Few go to elysium.

[Marblehead]

... moving to Georgia would need to return to Ohio.

 

I always avoid Ohio but north Georgia is a nice place to die.

[3bob]

there is a string or cord attached from the soul to the body when that is cut one no longer returns to that body/matrix and then various forces determine what the soul/state  does next... 

[Marblehead]

Maybe the soul jumps on the Soul Train?

[Andrei]

http://www.truthcontest.com/entries/the-present-universal-truth/

 

 

 

The evidence says we evolved as life evolved.

Human beings did not just appear at the top of the evolutionary ladder to reap the benefits of those millions of years of evolution without having to live through it.

In other words, you were those other animals. Someone had to be them.

You had to be lower animals to be a human now. You lived as all the different animals in your evolutionary line. You lived through millions of years, and millions of lives and deaths to get to where you are now. That's what Darwin's book means.

In addition to the fossil evidence, the genetic code proves that all animals, including us, evolved from bacteria over the last 700 million years on earth.

In other words, you were a microbe, an insect, a fish, a dinosaur, an ape...

When all of the evidence (100%) says something happened, and there is no evidence (zero) that anything else could have happened, it is the truth beyond a reasonable doubt to honest, rational people.

We have come a very, very long way, but we have a little further to go. The next and last step in our evolution is learning and accepting the truth of life, and this includes acknowledging our true past.

The truth will free us from the animal world we all evolved from.
1
Immortality: "It is impossible to be conscious of being unconscious."

It is not possible to be aware of being unconscious from your own perspective. You cannot be aware of not being aware. You can be less aware/conscious, such as when you are asleep, but not completely unconscious (dead), because time would stand still for you. A billion years could pass, and you would not know it.

How do you know you are dead? It is not possible to be aware of any gaps in life; it is continuous and never-ending from your own point of view.

Death and birth are a continuous event from your own perspective.

You will die physically, but you will be born into a new physical body. Being born happens, or you would not be here now. You were born into this life. It is what we know happens. There is no evidence anything else happens. True or false?

The "you only live once" theory: Many people say that they do not believe in reincarnation; they believe when you die, you're dead. What about fish, clams, horses, bears, flies? People that say you only live once are saying some souls get to live just one life as a worm, and that is it for all of eternity.

Other people believe you are judged by a god after you die. Is the worm judged?

Many people think human beings are the only animal that is conscious. Is a dog or cat conscious? Where do you draw the line? Is a bird conscious? The truth is, all animal life is conscious and alive just like us.1 The only thing that makes humans different from other animals is that we have a mind that can think and reason at a high enough level to know the truth of life, and those that know rise above animals.

It is time to see and accept the truth the evidence supports.

You are immortal; it is impossible to not be, because it is impossible to be conscious of being unconscious. Just that one sentence proves it. It is like these sentences: It is impossible for it to be light and dark at the same time, you cannot have your cake and eat it too. They are simple, but certain facts. The sentence "It is impossible to be conscious of being unconscious" is a simple and certain fact.

Energy cannot be created or destroyed; it can only be changed from one form to another. Albert Einstein

Like energy, consciousness cannot be created or destroyed.

This revelation will change your life. Now you know where you come from and what you have been doing for about half a billion years (evolving). The next question is how does life work and what is next, and we can know that too.

People are trying to understand the universe independent of consciousness, and it is the most important factor in the equation.

The universe as it relates to conscious life can be understood now. It is the ultimate truth; the truth that will transform mankind and the world.

 

 

 

Positive and negative forces moving in balance are the physical universe.

There are no exceptions to the laws of nature Newton revealed. They apply to all matter and energy. Human beings are matter and energy, thus you and all humans are governed by the same laws.

Luck: Good luck and bad luck are the balance in action and the way the balance most affects our lives. Luck is manifested on many levels. There is the day-to-day luck, from little things like getting a good parking space or a bad one, to big things, such as winning the lottery or finding out you have cancer. Then there is the long-term luck. You are lucky if you are born with good looks, money, health, talent and intelligence. You are unlucky if you are born unattractive, poor, sickly and without talent or intelligence. Most people are in between the extremes, but it does not matter, because we are immortal, and it will all balance out. Luck will move back and forth; everyone will get equal amounts of good and bad luck.

What goes around comes around. Everyone gets their turn.

Death is the great equalizer: If you are born with advantages, you can have more good times than bad times in your life, but when you die, you are reborn with disadvantages, and have more bad times than good times and vice versa. In the long run, no one has it better or worse than anyone else does, because life will always balance eventually. It is the known nature of the universe we live in.

If you flip a coin a thousand times, it will come up heads about half the time and tails about half the time. The odds of random events are predictable; this is why Las Vegas always makes a profit on gambling year after year. You can see the truth if you look at the big picture. You will see that random events are predictable because they balance. It's a fundamental truth of life everyone knows, but ignores.

This is why on the Fourth of July, about 162 people will be killed in auto accidents, and every fourth, about the same amount are killed. An average of twelve auto accidents happen every minute; about six-thousand teenagers are killed in auto accidents every year in the US. About four million people are bitten by dogs.

Why is the number about the same every year?

Everything is determined, the beginning as well as the end, by forces over which we have no control. It is determined for insects as well as for the stars. Human beings, vegetables or cosmic dust; we all dance to a mysterious tune, intoned in the distance. Albert Einstein

Destiny: Not being in control does not mean our future is predestined. No one knows the future; the future cannot be known. Anything can happen. The only thing we can be certain of is that it will be balanced.

The good news is, all of the best things are going to happen to you; the bad news is, so will all of the worst things, if you do not learn the truth.

Consequences: People may think, if everything is balanced, then it does not matter what you do. That is true, if you want to continue living in the savage animal realm. If you want to evolve past the animal realm, to a realm where there is no fear, pain or death, you have to learn and spread the truth of life. You have to live as a spiritual being. If you live like an animal, you will continue to be one.

 

 

 

The truth: You now know “the truth” part of the truth and life. There are only five fundamental things you need to know, and they are the following:

1. Our true history.
2. You are immortal.
3. Everything will balance.
4. You are a spiritual being.
5. The present is everything.

[Jim D.]

Look around you. Nature will tell you what happens after our body parts give out, and we stop breathing. "What dies is a collection of parts that we called a person...what dies is our human meaning..." (365 Tao) * The rest is just conjecture.

 

Me, I am going to be cremated, and then my ashes will be placed under a tree, preferably a willow tree. I will be fertilizer for the tree, and the trees growth will be me. And when the tree sheds its leaves, I will return to the earth, and begin the cycle of life once again, until this Earth is sucked into the flames of the Sun becoming all encompassing...and then I will become the Sun which will burn out in time...and then I will become a black hole of non-matter...and on...and on...and on...ad finitum. I think it all started that way, or was that way, or is that way.

 

"Death is the opposite of Time" *

[Marblehead]

 

 

"Death is the opposite of Time" *

 

I like that.

[rex]

Accounts of near death experiences are interesting. There are plenty of perspectives to choose from in the spiritual sphere. Without any spiritual perspective or practice, special insight, ability to see into other realms or willingness to take other peoples word for it on blind faith, I suppose all one can do is live a moral and honourable life, be self aware and let the death process take care of itself.

 

Edit: tpYos

Edited June 29, 2016 by rex

[9th]

Most of our beliefs are cultural and/or religious.  Not too much in the way of science and what there is, is much debated.  

 

you forgot about first hand accounts, as in those people who have memories of past lives and so forth

Edited June 29, 2016 by 9th

[C T]

Accounts of near death experiences are interesting. There's plenty of perspectives to choose from in the spiritual sphere. Without any spiritual perspective or practice, special insight, ability to see into other realms or willingness to takes other people's word for it on blind faith, I suppose all one can do is live a moral and honourable life, be self aware and let the death process take care of itself.

By conducting one's life correctly (right livelihood and 7 others combined would be ideal) it could be said that one is taking good care of the death process. To me this is very important. We all leave some kind of impact here. Since we are not sages or hermits, our interactions and minglings cannot be all positive, but if we honour our own integrity, its absolutely possible to practice simple kindness because its a logical fact that fundamentally we all want to be comfortable and enjoy a life as free of conflict as possible - so we try to generate the right intention to do the least harm possible, in practice, and hopefully one day, this intention will enlarge and we take on a different attitude which surpasses the previous one whereby we are able to not only not harm others, but carry them a step or two in the direction we ourselves want to go.

 

Motivation is all important - if it is right, then usually the outcome will also be right.

 

Of course patience and perseverance are other qualities we need to cultivate now if we want to die well. Try not to put it off, because the world is getting less and less predictable, and lives are losing value by the day. We may think we will live for a particular length of time, but this is only a hope. In reality, death can happen at any moment... within the space of 2 breaths... a final gasping in-breath, ...then a short out-breath... and thats it. At that point the body goes thru the dying process the same way it went thru the coming-into-existence process. 

[Cheshire Cat]

[..]

 

Though the above book mentioned is solidly researched.  I think it can be stated as fact, that some young children have memories of another life and give (unknown) details that can be independently corroborated. 

 

Although it can be stated as a fact that some young children have memories of another life, in my opinion it would be hazardous to rely on this as a basis to postulate "reincarnation".

 

When the early christians witnessed smoke coming from the volcanoes, that was an evidence to postulate the existence of a subterranean hell where U.S. marines used to regroup in case of defeat.

 

Maybe those children are just highly telepathic, or particularly open to respond to adult expectations: I think this could be the case for tulkus who allegedly recognize garments and tools of their previous incarnation.

 

I've no idea of what lies beyond death.

[Jim D.]

I had a near death experience when I was served with Divorce Papers. Her name was Plantif. The rest of the story was living through the court proceedings, lawyers making money off of minutes, warming up benches in court, checking the Settlement Agreement for fine print, and then skipping with arms raised out of the court house when it was finalized. Now that was better than any high I ever had.

 

Next !!!

[rex]

By conducting one's life correctly (right livelihood and 7 others combined would be ideal) it could be said that one is taking good care of the death process...

Some state that this is the minimum and that it's more favourable to die consciously. If one can't then the momentum of a life well spent will never be wasted.

 

.... we need to cultivate now if we want to die well. Try not to put it off, because the world is getting less and less predictable, and lives are losing value by the day. We may think we will live for a particular length of time, but this is only a hope. In reality, death can happen at any moment... within the space of 2 breaths... a final gasping in-breath, ...then a short out-breath... and thats it. At that point the body goes thru the dying process the same way it went thru the coming-into-existence process.

Absolutely! On a lighter note I remember one wag saying that we needn't worry about dying successfully - we've all died successfully thousands of times before; we breathe out, we don't breathe in.

 

I've no idea of what lies beyond death.

People who claim to be able to leave their body (astral projection etc.) and those who've had postive near death experiences state that they aren't afraid to die.

 

All this might be diverging from the OP's question. There are very precise accounts of what happenes at death and after death in the various traditions, from the dissolution of the elements in Mahayana Buddhism to the Hall of Judgement, the 42 Assessors and the Feather of Maat in the ancient Egyptian religion.

Edited June 29, 2016 by rex

[WisteriaWinds]

Although it can be stated as a fact that some young children have memories of another life, in my opinion it would be hazardous to rely on this as a basis to postulate "reincarnation".

 

When the early christians witnessed smoke coming from the volcanoes, that was an evidence to postulate the existence of a subterranean hell where U.S. marines used to regroup in case of defeat.

 

Maybe those children are just highly telepathic, or particularly open to respond to adult expectations: I think this could be the case for tulkus who allegedly recognize garments and tools of their previous incarnation.

 

I've no idea of what lies beyond death.

Yep, plenty of explanations beside reincarnation. The human spine is basically an antenna is an obvious one.

[9th]

Although it can be stated as a fact that some young children have memories of another life, in my opinion it would be hazardous to rely on this as a basis to postulate "reincarnation".

 

When the early christians witnessed smoke coming from the volcanoes, that was an evidence to postulate the existence of a subterranean hell where U.S. marines used to regroup in case of defeat.

 

Maybe those children are just highly telepathic, or particularly open to respond to adult expectations: I think this could be the case for tulkus who allegedly recognize garments and tools of their previous incarnation.

 

I've no idea of what lies beyond death.

 

I see where you are coming from, but Im not speaking about other children, I was speaking of personal memories.  For example, do you remember eating dinner yesterday?  Are you sure it was really you eating dinner?  Maybe you just tuned into the telepathic experience of an alternate dimension of another version of yourself eating dinner!

 

Your last statement seems the most accurate IMHO.

[C T]

this video clearly details the dying process from the Tibetan pov. 

 

[Jim D.]

CT, I looked at the Video you posted, and I have a question for you. It will be an opportunity for you to share how it is that putting names e.g. "elements" makes deah anymore acceptable for you. I promise not to be a "wiseguy."

 

You are probably like most people...afraid of death. But really there is nothing to it. Like the lady said in the video, it is a process. I don't agree with her Tibetan view of the process of death. I worked in four nursing homes, lost my best friend to cancer, my mother to COPD, and my dad to Prostate Cancer, and I can say that no one flailed around, or fought death. Death comes on deliberately. It takes over the body, and the spirit of a man disappears into a coma called "the death mask." And then there is the last inhale and exhale...and then you're gone.

 

I believe that if I have swept my side of the fence there will be no regrets once my time comes.

[doc benway]

I don't really subscribe to a particular view of what occurs or is present after death and before life.

I would like to share, however, that I have had experiences in sleep and dream that correspond quite accurately to states and experiences that are described by the Bönpos and Buddhists as occurring in the Bardo.

While I still tend not to say I believe this or that about what is present beyond this life, I find it very interesting and compelling and it has reinforced for me the value of sleep and dream work in my personal practices.

[C T]

CT, I looked at the Video you posted, and I have a question for you. It will be an opportunity for you to share how it is that putting names e.g. "elements" makes deah anymore acceptable for you. I promise not to be a "wiseguy."

 

You are probably like most people...afraid of death. But really there is nothing to it. Like the lady said in the video, it is a process. I don't agree with her Tibetan view of the process of death. I worked in four nursing homes, lost my best friend to cancer, my mother to COPD, and my dad to Prostate Cancer, and I can say that no one flailed around, or fought death. Death comes on deliberately. It takes over the body, and the spirit of a man disappears into a coma called "the death mask." And then there is the last inhale and exhale...and then you're gone.

 

I believe that if I have swept my side of the fence there will be no regrets once my time comes.

Everything that transpires here on this forum are nothing more than perspectives. You have yours, and others have theirs, and i have mine. I did not and will not vehemently impose that my perspective(s) are more accurate or more correct than others - however, i do maintain that we are all equal in our right to offer perspectives and to voice our views. 

 

Its ok to disagree, Jim. If everyone were to be on the same page, there'll be a shortage of storylines to make a book. 

 

 

On a personal note (as per your take that im like most people...), i'd just like to politely suggest that if and when you have a point to make, by all means state your point, but try if you can to present your views without making personal assumptions  about folks who gather here on this forum for the simple reason that this an internet forum - you have no inkling whatsoever about people's background- surely you are not intending to be rude, but nonetheless, because of the impersonal nature of online interactions, its easy for misunderstandings to arise. This is basically rule no 1 for maintaining good online decorum. This will give more credence to your opinions and views as a whole. Unless of course your motive belies your words, then its a different playing field altogether. 

 

 

Apologies OP. 

[Jim D.]

CT, I am in no way trying to be rude to people. But I am trying to churn up some emotions and dialogue. Your are right. The Internet sucks because you can't see the other guy's face...you can't read his body language. You couldn't see me, but I was laughing at some of the things I was typing on the site where you took offense with me. If you look back maybe two posts on that site, someone was ripping on me. I was not a happy camper at that point. One thing I learned growing up in a tough neigborhood, is don't let anyone get over on you. Nowadays, I use my mind and words. Some of it is passive/aggressive, some of is just plain straight forward. Depends on who my audience is. It will sting either way.

 

Your not avoiding me and my topic was a challenge for me, so I took a moment and expressed my discontent. The outcome: you engaged. It is what it is. I'm  not surprised that you came back with a response. Most people want to defend themselves if they have any kind of self respect. My second thought was that you might continue to track my posts. I was hoping that you would see all sides of me.

 

Steve, in my private practice as an Licensed Clinical Professional Counselor, dream work can be part of the client's treatment plan. I also use Bradshaw's Championing the Inner Child technique for healing trauma patients...those that have sexual/emotional/physical abuse histories.

 

And CT, I am everyday people. I am a blue collar kind of guy. I grew up blue collar. Went to school on the G.I. for both undergrad and postgrad. I go to the outhouse like everyone else. I just have no fear of death because I don't have anything to regret or close up. I just get up and live. When it is my time...its my time. Besides, my ashes are going to be dropped right under an old tree so that I will live forever.

 

Peace

 

Peace

[roger]

I've read a few books about NDE's, and I find them very convincing.

 

Check out the website near-death.com , and scroll down the home page to the section "notable NDE's" to read about some very extraordinary NDE's.