Mair - 1:3

[Shidifen]

Mair - 1:3

Chien Wu said to Lien Shu, "I have heard Chieh Yi speak. His words are impressive but not to the point. Once he goes off on a tangent, he never comes back. I was astounded by his words, which were limitless as the Milky Way. They were extravagant and remote from human experience."

"What did he say? " asked Lien Shu.

" `Far away on Mount Kuyeh there dwells a spirit man whose skin is like congealed snow and who is gentle as a virgin. He does not eat any of the five grains, but inhales the wind and drinks the dew. He rides on the clouds, drives a flying dragon, and wanders beyond the four seas. His spirit is concentrated, saving things from corruption and bringing a bountiful harvest every year.' Thinking this madness, I refused to believe what he said."

"Indeed! " said Lien Shu. "The blind cannot share in the display of pattern and ornament, the deaf cannot share in the sound of bells and drums. Not only are there physical blindness and deafness, they also exist on an intellectual plane. It would appear that Chieh Yii's words were directed at you. The spirit man is of such integrity that he mingles with the myriad things and becomes one with them. Worldly strife leads to chaos. Why should he exhaust himself with the affairs of all under heaven? Nothing can harm the spirit man. He would not be drowned in a flood that surges to heaven, nor would he be burned in a fierce drought that melts minerals and scorches the hills. One could mold a Yao or a Shun from his dust and residue. Why should he be willing to bother himself with such things?"

[Marblehead]

I have never been able to go anywhere with this little story.  I say in my mind, Okay.  But that's all the further it goes.  We each have our own limits of understanding.

[Taoist Texts]

These two seem to talk past each other.

 

A:somebody told me there is a spirit man.

B: you are blind and deaf intellectually. why should the spirit man bother himself with such things?

 

 

wat?

[Marblehead]

These two seem to talk past each other.

 

A:somebody told me there is a spirit man.

B: you are blind and deaf intellectually. why should the spirit man bother himself with such things?

 

 

wat?

 

Don't be telling me you missed the concept.

[Daeluin]

Ziporyn's tl:

 

Jian Wu said to Lian Shu, "I was listening to the words of the madman Jieyu. He talked big without getting at anything, going on and on without getting anywhere. I was shocked and terrified by what he said, which seemed as limitless as the Milky Way -- vast and excessive, with no regard for the way people really are."

 

Lian Shu asked, "What in the world did he say?"

 

"'There is a Spirit-Man living on distant Mt. Guye with skin like ice and snow, gentle and yielding like a virgin girl. He does not eat the five grains but rather feeds on the wind and dew. He rides upon the air and clouds, as if hitching his chariot to soaring dragons, wandering beyond the four seas. He concentrates his spirit, and straightaway all things are free from sickness and the harvest matures.' I regard this as crazy talk, which I refuse to believe."

 

"That's just as it should be. The blind have no access to the beauty of visual patterns, and the deaf have no part in the sounds of bells and drums. It is not only the physical body that can be blind and deaf; the faculty of understanding can also be so. If you were then to 'agree' with his words, you would be acting like a virgin girl who has just reached her time. A man like the one described in these words blankets all things with his Virtuosity, allowing the present age to seek out its own chaotic order. How could he be bothered to try to manage the world? This man is harmed by no thing. A flood may reach the sky without drowning him; a drought may melt the stones and scorch the mountains without scalding him. From his dust and chaff you could mold yourself a Yao or a Shun. Why would he bother himself over mere beings? A ceremonial cap salesman of Song once traveled to Yue, where the people shave their heads and tattoo their bodies -- they had no use for such things. After Yao brought all the people of the world under his rule and put all within the four seas into good order, he went off to see four of these masters of distant Mt. Guye at the bright side of the Fen River. Astonished at what he saw there, he forgot all about his kingdom."

 

A continuation of our discussion of scope. Here we explore how scopes which are beyond precedent so easily get talked up for others to become spellbound and confused by. Sometimes even kings - those with great scope - forget about their kingdoms, entranced by the lure of those of unheard of greatness.

 

Meanwhile the one who is spoken of has no need to do anything, for his virtuosity is so great that all things are done. He would simply be, and the king would simply be, if not for something that comes to connect them, something that comes to nurture that desire for one thing to be another. Ziporyn says in the notes how the virgin girl is used here as an example of the loss that comes from the exploitation of innocence, as often the virgin girl is unaware of and has no need to lose her virginity, but can be naively talked into it by someone else's desire.

 

So here we enter into the complicated world of how values become attributed to things and how this causes us to yearn to be something other than what we are, laying a contrived and complicated web over the natural flow of things between heaven and earth.

[Taoist Texts]

Don't be telling me you missed the concept.

but i did! whats the big idea here?

[Marblehead]

but i did! whats the big idea here?

 

How about we each have our own set of capabilities and capacities.  The blind cannot see the beautiful flower, the deaf cannot hear the beautiful music and one who's cup is full is in capable of learning anything new.

 

Many people have seen flying saucers.  I have never seen one.

[Taoist Texts]

How about we each have our own set of capabilities and capacities.  

 

 

Yes, thats one concept here, the second one is that a real man does not care.

 

As to the transl. of this para, only Zyporin got it right. Properly, the dialog goes like this

 

 

A:somebody told me there is a spirit man who helps the well-being of people. I did not believe him.

B: You are right in disbelieving him. He is blind and deaf intellectually. why should the spirit man bother himself with such things?

 

 

 

Many people have seen flying saucers.  I have never seen one.

 

I did:)

[Taoist Texts]

 "If you were then to 'agree' with his words, you would be acting like a virgin girl who has just reached her time. "

 

 Ziporyn says in the notes how the virgin girl is used here as an example of the loss that comes from the exploitation of innocence, as often the virgin girl is unaware of and has no need to lose her virginity, but is talked into it by the desire of something else.

 

 

hehe thats amusingly complicated but not true, both the notes and the transl.

 

the original says in that regard. 

 

A:somebody told me there is a spirit man who helps the well-being of people. I did not believe him.

B: You are right in disbelieving him. He is blind and deaf intellectually. This expert speaks like a naive teenage girl.  Why should the spirit man bother himself with such things?

 

 

But still kudos to Zy for not mis-translating "This expert speaks like a naive teenage girl." as "It would appear that Chieh Yii's words were directed at you." as Mair did.

[Marblehead]

Yes, thats one concept here, the second one is that a real man does not care.

 

As to the transl. of this para, only Zyporin got it right. Properly, the dialog goes like this

 

 

A:somebody told me there is a spirit man who helps the well-being of people. I did not believe him.

B: You are right in disbelieving him. He is blind and deaf intellectually. why should the spirit man bother himself with such things?

 

 

I might think on this a bit.  It does present a different perspective from the regular translations.

[Marblehead]

I said:  Many people have seen flying saucers.  I have never seen one.

 

I did:)

 

They didn't beam you up and do sexual experiments on you, did they?

[Taoist Texts]

They didn't beam you up and do sexual experiments on you, did they?

Disappointingly - no. But years later i saw Dan Akroyd on tv, describing exact same thing that we saw that night.

 

[Daeluin]

So back in Zhuangzi's time they had the concept of teenagers? Or was it more like maidens? Just curious.

 

Both translations seem to present the context of a naive young lady to deliver a similar point. Not sure why the loss of virginity is mentioned if it isn't explicitly stated, but it does help deliver the point of what is at risk through loss to one's integrity and wholeness by coming to naively yearn for something just because someone else talks it up.

[Taoist Texts]

So back in Zhuangzi's time they had the concept of teenagers? Or was it more like maidens? Just curious.

 

the exact term is 时女 shínǚ (time-woman), 'someone before woman age' , which probably includes both teenage aspect and virginity aspect. The woman character 女 also is used as a pronoun 'you', hence the confusion between translations.

[dawei]

I'm going to agree that 'virgin' is the wrong translation, but as well is naive teenage girl...   a [young] [elegant and] slender girl/lady.

 

Corresponds, ultimately, to one who is blind and deaf... 

 

Whether the dumb sits in wholeness or the sage... it is oneness.

[Marblehead]

I hesitated before hitting the "Thank You" button on that one.  I had to ask myself how I truly think about that last sentence.

[Shidifen]

Mair's notes -

12. Chien Wu, Lien Shu. Two fictitious practitioners of the Way.

13. Chieh Yu. A legendary hermit of the state of Ch'u.

14. myriad things. This is a very important expression in early Chinese philosophy. "Myriad things" refers to all phenomenal existence. More literally, we might render wanwu as "the ten thousand entities." We should note that while wu is normally translated as "thing-: for consistency's sake, it also includes both the notion of "creature" and of "object."

15. Shun. Another sage-king of high antiquity.

[Rara]

Having a go before I read all other posts...

 

Chieh Yi is on a different level. How can a man understand?

Edited July 4, 2016 by Rara

[Rara]

Disappointingly - no.

Crikey! What a response haha.

[Geof Nanto]

Some more thoughts on this line……

 

It would appear that Chieh Yii's words were directed at you. – Victor Mair  

 

If you were then to 'agree' with his words, you would be acting like a virgin girl who has just reached her time.  - Brook Ziporyn

 

When he spoke these words he was like a girl who waits for a suitor to come. - A C Graham

 

If you were to believe it, in any case, that would be like a virgin pretending to know all about love-making.  Scott Bradley (I particularly like this one for its reference to the mystery at the heart of love-making; although for me it's a virgin image better suited to a boastful teenage boy. It's seems there is much prejudice directed against girls.)

 

My own interpretation….

 

The teenage girl reaching her time for marriage is a powerful force of nature and one that’s lauded in classical Daoism for its fecundity. Such blossoming energy is at the very core of ongoing life. Yin seeks yang and yang seeks yin.  The madman Jieyu (Chieh Yii) has yin-like sensibility that’s undifferentiated, vast, unfathomable and mysterious to regular people - hence he's seen as mad. The suitor he seeks is in the very words he speaks. He tries to give shape to his inner experience. He’s wanting to mate his ineffable yin reality with the yang of definite words and thereby fertilise other minds.

 

Such an uncannily subtle joining is at the heart of Zhuangzi’s project. He seeks to bring us the yang-like definiteness of interpretation, yet ever reminding us of the limiting qualities that interpretation must always entail.  He is a mystic who seeks to keep the undifferentiated ‘emptiness’ of yin whole, to the extent that he scorns all philosophical and metaphysical interpretations as just that; mere interpretations that are a product of our various human perspectives. He wanders freely through all realms, yet treads so lightly that he leaves intact the mystery at the heart of life.  

Edited July 5, 2016 by Yueya

[Stosh]

Its just my opinion, but , I don't think there IS anywhere to go with this story. Its very straight-forward. It presents an example of the virtuous person. He isn't ambitious or trying to force the world to his own mold. He accepts how it actually is, to the degree that he can't see how it could be otherwise. Rejecting or not having , illusory ideas and values which we often superimpose on the real world he hasn't created fake requirements, or have expectations , other than what will indeed happen. Ex: He cant be sad about loss or failure , since his ownership and goals would be illusions he never had.  He or she takes world for what it is , but even then, not having the mental structures to incorporate the events seriously, (because its importance is opinion too).

The experiences are stripped of meaning.