Why are we afraid to die if it's inevitable?

[Tatsumaru]

Why are we afraid to die if it's inevitable?

Why do we want to survive, even though no one really survives?

Why do we want to leave a legacy, when all stories fade into oblivion?

Why do we want the impermanent to become permanent?

Why do we want for things to be other than they are?

 

The same question in 5 variants. The answer shall destroy the world.

[Karl]

What we do in life ripples through history. We can know right now that we are making a difference and we can feel good about doing it, because we are abiding in our principles :-) To act morally is to see that ones life is an end in itself. Right thought, right speech and right action.

 

A fear of death is healthy and natural. It stops us suiciding and murdering, it makes us who we are, it defines us and the morality of our actions.

 

Once it is realised that ones life IS the value and that that value IS an end in itself, then you can dispel all ignorance and evasion by consciously deciding to give them up.

[WisteriaWinds]

I believe the quest for immortality is set in our hearts. But our bodies lie to us about what that means.

The result is a huge cosmetics industry and lots of rich funeral directors.

[9th]

[Tatsumaru]

Whatever you believe is irrelevant. The Great Liberation of Padmasambhava begins, “Soon we all will die; our hopes and fears will be irrelevant….” Hope and fear, the attachment to perceived future and past, is the primary barrier to uncovering a truth. Unless you know the truth about yourself, then everything you do is based on a lie. All your morals, hopes, beliefs, positive thoughts are nothing but a consolation. 

Whether you prevent suicide or not, whether you are healthy or not, you are still dying, you have been dying from the day you were born. 70 years will be gone soon.

As for your life being valuable - Seneca said, “Do not regard as valuable anything that can be taken away.” The same thing in other words: “A wise man, recognizing that the world is but an illusion, does not act as if it is real.” Buddha.
 

So please forget about your belief systems. I'm interested in truth only. Personal opinions don't matter.

 

What we do in life ripples through history. We can know right now that we are making a difference and we can feel good about doing it, because we are abiding in our principles :-) To act morally is to see that ones life is an end in itself. Right thought, right speech and right action.

A fear of death is healthy and natural. It stops us suiciding and murdering, it makes us who we are, it defines us and the morality of our actions.

Once it is realised that ones life IS the value and that that value IS an end in itself, then you can dispel all ignorance and evasion by consciously deciding to give them up.

[9th]

So please forget about your belief systems. I'm interested in truth only. Personal opinions don't matter.

 

What is truth? 

Why do you care?

How can you speak it?

Does it even matter?

[C T]

the Great Liberation by Guru Padmasambhava is a wonderful teaching! 

[Marblehead]

As for your life being valuable - Seneca said, “Do not regard as valuable anything that can be taken away.” The same thing in other words: “A wise man, recognizing that the world is but an illusion, does not act as if it is real.” Buddha.

 

So please forget about your belief systems. I'm interested in truth only. Personal opinions don't matter.

That caused me laughter.  Thanks.

[Marblehead]

 

Does it even matter?

 

Everything matters but nothing really matters.

[Tatsumaru]

What is truth?
Although there are many relative truths, such as mathematical truth, pragmatic truth, personal truth, truth by consensus, etc. Relative truths are obscurative truths which obscure absolute truth. Of course, those who have not realized an absolute truth, will generally deny that absolute truth exists, which is silly even from a conceptual point of view, because if there was no absolute truth, then the absolute truth would be absolutely nothing, and thus an absolute truth. Generally speaking an absolute truth is something that doesn't change and something that cannot be further simplified.

Why do you care?

Why did Neo want out of the Matrix?

How can you speak it?
"Truth, like gold, is to be obtained not by its growth, but by washing away from it all that is not gold." - Leo Tolstoy
Simply put, truth is inaccessible for the 6 senses, but not inexpressible. We start by pointing out what is not true.

Does it even matter?

Well, it's certainly not a crime to believe in illusions and it's certainly not a crime to be limited.
If you want truth go for it, if you like the dream, keep dreaming.

 

What is truth? 

Why do you care?

How can you speak it?

Does it even matter?

[9th]

What absolute truths have you discovered?

Can you describe or explain any of them without resorting to quotes and stories and ideas from other people?

If the dream is not true, why do you react to it?

[Karl]

Whatever you believe is irrelevant. The Great Liberation of Padmasambhava begins, “Soon we all will die; our hopes and fears will be irrelevant….” Hope and fear, the attachment to perceived future and past, is the primary barrier to uncovering a truth. Unless you know the truth about yourself, then everything you do is based on a lie. All your morals, hopes, beliefs, positive thoughts are nothing but a consolation.

Whether you prevent suicide or not, whether you are healthy or not, you are still dying, you have been dying from the day you were born. 70 years will be gone soon.

As for your life being valuable - Seneca said, “Do not regard as valuable anything that can be taken away.” The same thing in other words: “A wise man, recognizing that the world is but an illusion, does not act as if it is real.” Buddha.

 

So please forget about your belief systems. I'm interested in truth only. Personal opinions don't matter.

Don't you people ever have that moment where you go doh !

 

If 'whatever you believe' is irrelevant, then you must apply that to your own belief that whatever you believe is also irrelevant. Therefore how will you first believe anything if everything is irrelevant ? You won't know truth because it would be a lie. You are blind because you can see and deaf because you can hear.

 

Truth is proof. Proof requires logic based in reality. Proof is a personal, practical, selfish necessity of earthly cognition. It is the process of reducing a proposition to axioms-to sensory evidence. As such it is the only means that man has of discovering the relationship between non axiomatic proposition and the facts of reality.

Edited July 2, 2016 by Karl

[Tatsumaru]

What absolute truths have you discovered?

Can you describe or explain any of them without resorting to quotes and stories and ideas from other people?

If the dream is not true, why do you react to it?

An absolute truth is that there are no absolute things in time, and thus no things at all in time. Things exist only outside of time, within time "form is emptiness and emptiness is form". 

 

How am I reacting to the dream? Reaction means change, change means lie. If something is reacting, it's not real. If someone is reacting, they are not real.

Edited July 2, 2016 by Tatsumaru

[Tatsumaru]

Don't you people ever have that moment where you go doh !

 

If 'whatever you believe' is irrelevant, then you must apply that to your own belief that whatever you believe is also irrelevant. Therefore how will you first believe anything if everything is irrelevant ? You won't know truth because it would be a lie. You are blind because you can see and deaf because you can hear.

 

Truth is proof. Proof requires logic based in reality. Proof is a personal, practical, selfish necessity of earthly cognition. It is the process of reducing a proposition to axioms-to sensory evidence. As such it is the only means that man has of discovering the relationship between non axiomatic proposition and the facts of reality.

 

That beliefs are irrelevant is not a belief. This is an understanding that arises out of the realization that beliefs are not real.

There is a difference between truth and beliefs. Beliefs obscure truth. I never said everything is irrelevant, I said beliefs are irrelevant. Not being able to believe in anything would be a great quality for someone to have.

 

Jim Walker, in “The Problems with Beliefs,” mentions: Aristotle believed in a prime mover, a god that moves the sun and moon and objects through space, and that with such a belief, one cannot possibly understand the laws of gravitation or inertia. Isaac Newton saw through that and developed a workable gravitational theory; however, his belief in absolute time prevented him from formulating a theory of relativity. Einstein, however, saw through that and thought in terms of relative time. Therefore, he formulated his famous theory of general relativity, yet his own beliefs could not accept pure randomness in subatomic physics and thus barred him from understanding the consequences of quantum mechanics. Beliefs deny, disconnect, suppress, disempower, etc.

 

Few seem to realize that those considered priests of the scientific method have neither uncovered nor explained a single absolute truth. That is not their job. Scientists have little interest in truth or reality, for their paychecks are derived from the pursuit of facts about objects. Science builds its theorems or working hypotheses upon previous beliefs, and therefore it often labels any discussion of absolute certainty as absurd. For example, to say that there is no “present in time” is antithetical to science’s established, empirical beliefs. Truth and reality confuse the priests of the scientific method. Their paradigm, or fixed set of beliefs, is founded on concepts of a materially existing world; that is, sciential theorems, not the sapiential truth or the reality beyond objects. Truth and reality are taboo in the scientific groupthink, for they cling to a faith in objects. As the Nobel Laureate Charles Townes said, “Many people don’t realize that science basically involves assumptions and faith.” Most people fail to recognize that the foundation of a mathematical statement is only true in relation to the assumptions of “set theory,” the belief that any collection of objects actually exists. All objects, without exception, are indeed mathematical; the reason for that lies in the multiplying/dividing nature of the optically organized universe. However, the modern cosmological understanding of the universe suggests that no objects exist, indicating that mathematics pivots on a misguided belief in materialism,..aka empiricism. The sciences usually expound on relative reality through the assumption that object-ive reality actually exists.

 

Truth as you said, requires logic based in reality, not belief-systems. But to suggest that truth is personal, is to suggest that there is no difference between true and false. No belief is true, again, no belief is true. No truth is personal.

[9th]

An absolute truth is that there are no absolute things in time, and thus no things at all. Things exist only outside of time, within time from is emptiness and emptiness is form. 

 

How am I reacting to the dream? Reaction means change, change means lie. If something is reacting, it's not real. If someone is reacting, they are not real.

 

Your statements are purely semantic and not connected to the substantial (whatever that may be).  They are empty statements without an actual living context or holistic understanding.  You say that perceptions of the senses are not true, yet I would say they are far, far more true than any of your ideas about "neo" or the "matrix" or "emptiness" or "form".  If you walk outside and a rock falls and hits you on the head, you will bleed, you will feel pain, you will react as if your sensations are true.  It makes no difference what you have to say about it because your human body is much more "true" than your civilized rational mind, as far as your perception is concerned.  You cannot bend spoons, stop time, dodge bullets, fly through the air, and so on.  You wish to deny the truth of perception as unreal by asserting the truth of conceptual rationality instead - but you cannot demonstrate these conceptual ideas as reality, because all they are is ideas.  Of course the reasons you wish to deny reality as it is are not uncommon - in fact they are all too common.

 

How are you reacting?  Its self evident.  If you dont know what that means in simple terms, then I suppose you will have to figure it out on your own.

[Tatsumaru]

Your statements are purely semantic and not connected to the substantial (whatever that may be).  They are empty statements without an actual living context or holistic understanding.  You say that perceptions of the senses are not true, yet I would say they are far, far more true than any of your ideas about "neo" or the "matrix" or "emptiness" or "form".  If you walk outside and a rock falls and hits you on the head, you will bleed, you will feel pain, you will react as if your sensations are true.  It makes no difference what you have to say about it because your human body is much more "true" than your civilized rational mind, as far as your perception is concerned.  You cannot bend spoons, stop time, dodge bullets, fly through the air, and so on.  You wish to deny the truth of perception as unreal by asserting the truth of conceptual rationality instead - but you cannot demonstrate these conceptual ideas as reality, because all they are is ideas.  Of course the reasons you wish to deny reality as it is are not uncommon - in fact they are all too common.

 

How are you reacting?  Its self evident.  If you dont know what that means in simple terms, then I suppose you will have to figure it out on your own.

 

If you don't know what is substantial (as you yourself admit), then your judgment on what is substantial is based on a lie.

It is true that these statements do not have a living context, because life is only real in your imagination. Your idea of truth is derived from experiencing the lower 6 senses - sight, hearing, smell, taste, touch, brain organ. If real is what you can feel, smell, taste and see, then 'real' is simply electrical signals interpreted by your brain. If someone asks you "Where am I" you are most likely going to point at her and declare "You are over there by the sign post", but remember, that is only an interpretation of light that occurs in your brain organ. The actual world you cherish does not exist outside. Therefore the fear you feel is not any different than the fear you feel during a nightmare.

 

 

As for what is possible and what isn't possible - please start with this - What I know by experience I know, what I don't know, I simply don't know. Whatever you think is possible is derived from not knowing what's true, so it's not valuable. The only thing that's impossible is for lies to become truth. [today’s] therapeutic culture [says] “wait a minute. you’re saying there are higher potentials, so does that mean I’m lower? because that can’t be right”. All of a sudden it implied a judgment, and nobody’s allowed to be higher because that means someone else is going to be lower. And you’re not allowed to call anybody lower; therefore nobody’s allowed to be higher… So the Human Potential movement got derailed and was replaced by this therapeutic self-expression, self-acceptance movement.” Does that sound familiar?

 

As for reaction, I'm quite familiar with this lie - please try to understand this - if something changes then it's not what you think it is, it's just changing. To start labeling processes as things is equal to start seeing faces in a flowing river. And reaction requires interaction, interaction implies change, thus whatever you think is reacting is not an actual thing. For a thing to actually exist, it would have to be still and unchanging.

 

This contradiction between the senses and truth only shows that the lower 6 senses are incapable of recognizing truth, not the other way around. 

 

“if you could realize that there is no connection between your senses and the outside world, you would be liberated on the spot” -Baizhang, Eighth century Chinese Zen teacher.

 

Thus an awareness should arise, an awareness that confirms you are living in a dream world. The only thing left is to decide whether you want to stay in the dream or wake up. Ponder on this until you understand it.

Edited July 2, 2016 by Tatsumaru

[Karl]

That beliefs are irrelevant is not a belief. This is an understanding that arises out of the realization that beliefs are not real.

There is a difference between truth and beliefs. Beliefs obscure truth. I never said everything is irrelevant, I said beliefs are irrelevant. Not being able to believe in anything would be a great quality for someone to have.

 

Jim Walker, in “The Problems with Beliefs,” mentions: Aristotle believed in a prime mover, a god that moves the sun and moon and objects through space, and that with such a belief, one cannot possibly understand the laws of gravitation or inertia. Isaac Newton saw through that and developed a workable gravitational theory; however, his belief in absolute time prevented him from formulating a theory of relativity. Einstein, however, saw through that and thought in terms of relative time. Therefore, he formulated his famous theory of general relativity, yet his own beliefs could not accept pure randomness in subatomic physics and thus barred him from understanding the consequences of quantum mechanics. Beliefs deny, disconnect, suppress, disempower, etc.

 

Few seem to realize that those considered priests of the scientific method have neither uncovered nor explained a single absolute truth. That is not their job. Scientists have little interest in truth or reality, for their paychecks are derived from the pursuit of facts about objects. Science builds its theorems or working hypotheses upon previous beliefs, and therefore it often labels any discussion of absolute certainty as absurd. For example, to say that there is no “present in time” is antithetical to science’s established, empirical beliefs. Truth and reality confuse the priests of the scientific method. Their paradigm, or fixed set of beliefs, is founded on concepts of a materially existing world; that is, sciential theorems, not the sapiential truth or the reality beyond objects. Truth and reality are taboo in the scientific groupthink, for they cling to a faith in objects. As the Nobel Laureate Charles Townes said, “Many people don’t realize that science basically involves assumptions and faith.” Most people fail to recognize that the foundation of a mathematical statement is only true in relation to the assumptions of “set theory,” the belief that any collection of objects actually exists. All objects, without exception, are indeed mathematical; the reason for that lies in the multiplying/dividing nature of the optically organized universe. However, the modern cosmological understanding of the universe suggests that no objects exist, indicating that mathematics pivots on a misguided belief in materialism,..aka empiricism. The sciences usually expound on relative reality through the assumption that object-ive reality actually exists.

Truth as you said, requires logic based in reality, not belief-systems. But to suggest that truth is personal, is to suggest that there is no difference between true and false. No belief is true, again, no belief is true. No truth is personal.

You are going a very long way around to say that not all concepts we hold are necessarily true. I don't hold that they are, neither do I hold that they aren't. We can know what is true by logical deduction based on axiomatic reality. We cannot provide proof of proof, we have to start with the axioms that permit proof to be discovered.

 

I don't hold that science provides all the answers. Philosophy is the soil in which the trees of science grow. I'm not an empiricist or materialist (a muscle mystic) so I see both sides. You, on the other hand, are an intrincisist (a spiritual mystic) and only see one other side.

 

Aristotle sided with Plato on the need for a prime mover-he was logically inconsistent in that belief.

 

I pull together the muscle and spirit into one integrated whole. There is no mind/body dichotomy in my world. Objective reality does exist and we can know it.

[idquest]

Why are we afraid to die if it's inevitable?

Why do we want to survive, even though no one really survives?

Why do we want to leave a legacy, when all stories fade into oblivion?

Why do we want the impermanent to become permanent?

Why do we want for things to be other than they are?

 

The same question in 5 variants. The answer shall destroy the world.

 

People don't want to die from violence. People (well, majority) are OK when dying from old age.

[Tatsumaru]

People don't want to die from violence. People (well, majority) are OK when dying from old age.

 

In movies, sure.

[3bob]

doubt has a purpose but it is not satisfactory in or at the end game,

 

know that when death dies doubt dies with it.

[3bob]

and I'd remind certain Buddhists -  per the historic Buddha and his teachings of dharmic truths working in relative worlds - and which can not just be dismissed in a petty way as being illusion - that He had to leave "Buddhism" or the raft that it is  behind when He crossed over to the "beyond of the beyond" (which is also of well known doctrine)

Edited July 2, 2016 by 3bob

[C T]

Heads bleeding from being hit by rocks is not a truth nor a reality - it is a conventional and mundane probability, and a preventable one at that. Some heads are harder than others, some rocks are smaller than others, not to mention numerous other factors like trajectories, age of rock, age of head, and so on. Its not always cut and dried. Some people get their vital organs damaged by a hail of lead and survive, while there are few who have died from slipping on the sidewalk while out for a stroll. Though there's good reason to believe we will do well to avoid being shot knowing that the odds of survival are slim, yet it shouldn't be taken for granted that there's guaranteed safety in a stroll on the sidewalk. So there is actually an element of truth in the whole spectrum of probable outcomes, and then some. Is there an urgent need to superimpose a truth label onto conventions and outcomes to make them more believable and truth-bound, or is this merely a result of a common human frailty? 

Edited July 2, 2016 by C T

[vonkrankenhaus]

Truth is not reality.

 

It's just being honest.

 

The honest can be incorrect, but telling "the truth".

 

Reality is beyond truth.

 

 

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[C T]

and I'd remind certain Buddhists -  per the historic Buddha and his teachings of dharmic truths working in relative worlds - and which can not just be dismissed in a petty way as being illusion - that He had to leave "Buddhism" or the raft that it is  behind when He crossed over to the "beyond of the beyond" 

yeah, buddhists need your reminding very much. They can be a miserable lot without you looking out for their interests. 

[rex]

In horror of death, I took to the mountains—
Again and again I meditated on the uncertainty of the hour of death,
Capturing the fortress of the deathless unending nature of mind,
Now all fear of death is over and done.

 

This quote from Milarepa represents one approach and solution to the question.

 

That's one approach, here's another from a different raft (Hi 3bob!):

"The idea of everlasting life has nothing to do with hankering after life. The truth is that actually there is no death.
How can there be no death? Because actually there is one single energy, one all-encompassing motivating force which lies at the root of all life's activity, not two. The Great Void which is the common ground of all life is there already, with life continously being born within it. So what need is there for life and death?
It is because our desire for things assumes undue importance that we go astray and begin separation of life and death. If we view them from this space of quiet and tranquility we can see there has never been any life or any death. Evidently there is only this one single energy flowing and circulating about."

From the Preface to Can Tong Qi Shuliu, 1564

Edited July 2, 2016 by rex