Why are we afraid to die if it's inevitable?

[9th]

Heads bleeding from being hit by rocks is not a truth nor a reality

 

It is a reality when it happens to you.  Your verbal claims about what is or is not reality have nothing to do with how you react to the weight of reality as it acts upon you - like it is doing right now

[Tatsumaru]

and I'd remind certain Buddhists -  per the historic Buddha and his teachings of dharmic truths working in relative worlds - and which can not just be dismissed in a petty way as being illusion - that He had to leave "Buddhism" or the raft that it is  behind when He crossed over to the "beyond of the beyond" 

What are you talking about? Gautama's teachings are about surrendering the illusion and waking up from the dream. It's not about "earning and learning" your way out of suffering as many Buddhists seem to believe. Gautama himself dismissed the illusion as meaningless many times and did not harbor relative compassion. 

 

Heads bleeding from being hit by rocks is not a truth nor a reality - it is a conventional and mundane probability, and a preventable one at that. Some heads are harder than others, some rocks are smaller than others, not to mention numerous other factors like trajectories, age of rock, age of head, and so on. Its not always cut and dried. Some people get their vital organs damaged by a hail of lead and survive, while there are few who have died from slipping on the sidewalk while out for a stroll. Though there's good reason to believe we will do well to avoid being shot knowing that the odds of survival are slim, yet it shouldn't be taken for granted that there's guaranteed safety in a stroll on the sidewalk. So there is actually an element of truth in the whole spectrum of probable outcomes, and then some. Is there an urgent need to superimpose a truth label onto conventions and outcomes to make them more believable and truth-bound, or is this merely a result of a common human frailty? 

 

This world that you describe doesn't exist. This discussion doesn't exist. We are not even here. So studying the illusion may increase your odds of survival, but that doesn't make the you that you think you are, real.

 

 

Truth is not reality.

 

It's just being honest.

 

The honest can be incorrect, but telling "the truth".

 

Reality is beyond truth.

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

From your post it seems that you don't understand the difference between relative and absolute truth. You are talking about relative truths which are not actually truths. Relative honesty is dishonesty. The only truths are absolute and are synonymous with reality.  

 

In horror of death, I took to the mountains—

Again and again I meditated on the uncertainty of the hour of death,

Capturing the fortress of the deathless unending nature of mind,

Now all fear of death is over and done.

 

This quote from Milarepa represents one approach and solution to the question.

 

That's one approach, here's another from a different raft (Hi 3bob!):

"The idea of everlasting life has nothing to do with hankering after life. The truth is that actually there is no death.

How can there be no death? Because actually there is one single energy, one all-encompassing motivating force which lies at the root of all life's activity, not two. The Great Void which is the common ground of all life is there already, with life continously being born within it. So what need is there for life and death?

It is because our desire for things assumes undue importance that we go astray and begin separation of life and death. If we view them from this space of quiet and tranquility we can see there has never been any life or any death. Evidently there is only this one single energy flowing and circulating about."

 

From the Preface to Can Tong Qi Shuliu, 1564

1. Yes, Milarepa is pretty cool. This quote points to the root of suffering.

 

2. There is no death, but there is no life either. Forget about oneness. Saraha said, “He who thinks of mind in terms of one or many casts away the light and enters delusion.” Although this term "non-duality" has a variety of meanings and uses, this commentary will address three (3). Duality is a perspective that the universe is essentially an arrangement of binary oppositions, such as the electromagnetic spectrum which contains all phenomena. By that definition, non-duality would either be 1. that which was beyond the duality of the electromagnetic spectrum, or 2. a fantasy belief that the condition of duality can somehow merge with an Unconditional Oneness. Yes, one could intellectualize that duality is a the diversification out of Oneness, and in a Taoist sense it is. However, this can be confusing, because many people often miss the fact that Oneness does not exist without Duality. There is no Center without a Boundary, no Here without a There, no Yin/Yang without a One. If we are to transcend the struggles of separateness, of useless happiness and suffering, and Birth the Human Beingness beyond sentience, there must be a letting go of what is, and is not us. We are Light; however, very few understand what that is pointing to.

 

It is a reality when it happens to you.  Your verbal claims about what is or is not reality have nothing to do with how you react to the weight of reality as it acts upon you - like it is doing right now

 

It doesn't happen to you. You are not the you that you think you are, feel you are, analyze you are. Whatever changes is not true. That which lives and dies is not true. Your suffering is caused by your desire for things to be other than they are. You are not here, you are not your body or mind, you are not life, you are not energy - all stuffs that change constantly. Just because it hurts when the body loses a limb, doesn't mean that that is you. Wake up before the body dies, that's what you are here for.

[vonkrankenhaus]

Re:

-----

"You are talking about relative truths which are not actually truths. Relative honesty is dishonesty. The only truths are absolute and are synonymous with reality. "

-----

 

Does truth have an "opposite"?

 

If so, it is relative.

 

How about "absolute" truth?

 

Isn't there also an "absolute" opposite to that?

 

An absolute lie?

 

Does reality have an "actual" and "manifested" opposite?

 

No.

 

There is no "real" un-real.

 

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[9th]

It doesn't happen to you. You are not the you that you think you are, feel you are, analyze you are. Whatever changes is not true. That which lives and dies is not true. Your suffering is caused by your desire for things to be other than they are. You are not here, you are not your body or mind, you are not life, you are not energy - all stuffs that change constantly. Just because it hurts when the body loses a limb, doesn't mean that that is you. Wake up before the body dies, that's what you are here for.

 

But you see, it makes no difference if it is "true" or "not true" if you always act as if it is "true".  You are only fooling yourself, playing silly mind games with yourself - where you claim to know better than to treat existence as "true".  Yet you cannot prove your claims, and therefore your claims themselves remain "not true".  In other words, you have no clue what is "true" or "not true" because you cannot discern the difference between them.  You seem to be saying "I know whats going on, Ive figured it all out", but this in itself is the clearest evidence of your lack of knowing, especially in the light of all these other statements.  When you actually discover that you dont know whats going on, that you really are clueless, then you will have actually made some progress.  Most people prevent themselves from making such progress, so good luck.

 

For the sake of argument lets say life is all an illusion, its not "real" or "true" - if you truly recognize something as illusion, it has no power over you, it is merely a phantasm of no consequence.  I am asking you to demonstrate this claim you are making, but you are unable to do so.  You cannot walk through walls, fly through the air - for you, there are laws of existence which act upon you and control your actions and thoughts at all times.  If it is all an illusion, then you are not above it, in fact you are very much under it - you are subjugated by it, you are a slave to it.  In such a case, it is quite easy to see why you would want to run around claiming such a thing is not true - it is much more exciting for your ego to think you are over it, that you are free of it, that you have achieved some sort of gold medal of wisdom, and that now you must run around and proudly show this to everyone so they will shower you with recognition and accolades.  But you have not shown any achievements, and you have not shown any real understanding - all you have shown is empty psuedo-intellectual claims that cannot be proven.  If that is enough for you, thats great - enjoy yourself.  You will find plenty of company here, I can assure you.

[Tatsumaru]

Re:

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"You are talking about relative truths which are not actually truths. Relative honesty is dishonesty. The only truths are absolute and are synonymous with reality. "

-----

 

Does truth have an "opposite"?

 

If so, it is relative.

 

How about "absolute" truth?

 

Isn't there also an "absolute" opposite to that?

 

An absolute lie?

 

Does reality have an "actual" and "manifested" opposite?

 

No.

 

There is no "real" un-real.

 

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

 

Absolute truths don't have opposites, an absolute lie is an oxymoron, because lies are not absolute. The absolute is nondual and beyond dualistic concepts. 

Even the relative is not an opposite of absolute, because the relative is a lie. There is just the absolute, nothing else.

Manifestations are not real.

[3bob]

the first Jhana is not disconnected from the 2nd - etc... and following a pattern that extends and is inclusive  all the way to the "beyond of the beyond" per Buddhist doctrine - thus where does illusion begin or end?  (which btw are the same jhana's that the historic Buddha taught and practiced pre and post liberation according to well known doctrine)  btw #2 there is the saying that is close to, "samsara properly understood is Nirvana"

 

CT, really?

Edited July 2, 2016 by 3bob

[Tatsumaru]

But you see, it makes no difference if it is "true" or "not true" if you always act as if it is "true".  You are only fooling yourself, playing silly mind games with yourself - where you claim to know better than to treat existence as "true".  Yet you cannot prove your claims, and therefore your claims themselves remain "not true".  In other words, you have no clue what is "true" or "not true" because you cannot discern the difference between them.  You seem to be saying "I know whats going on, Ive figured it all out", but this in itself is the clearest evidence of your lack of knowing, especially in the light of all these other statements.  When you actually discover that you dont know whats going on, that you really are clueless, then you will have actually made some progress.  Most people prevent themselves from making such progress, so good luck.

 

For the sake of argument lets say life is all an illusion, its not "real" or "true" - if you truly recognize something as illusion, it has no power over you, it is merely a phantasm of no consequence.  I am asking you to demonstrate this claim you are making, but you are unable to do so.  You cannot walk through walls, fly through the air - for you, there are laws of existence which act upon you and control your actions and thoughts at all times.  If it is all an illusion, then you are not above it, in fact you are very much under it - you are subjugated by it, you are a slave to it.  In such a case, it is quite easy to see why you would want to run around claiming such a thing is not true - it is much more exciting for your ego to think you are over it, that you are free of it, that you have achieved some sort of gold medal of wisdom, and that now you must run around and proudly show this to everyone so they will shower you with recognition and accolades.  But you have not shown any achievements, and you have not shown any real understanding - all you have shown is empty psuedo-intellectual claims that cannot be proven.  If that is enough for you, thats great - enjoy yourself.  You will find plenty of company here, I can assure you.

 

You have a point - if you act as if the false is true, then suffering is inevitable. Existence is true, non-existence is not true. The problem with sentient beings is that they want non-existence to be true and suffering (which is ultimately an error) arises.

I don't make any claims nor do I have any theories - anyone who gives you a belief-system is your enemy.

I'm simply stating the obvious - whatever is ever-changing is not a thing that doesn't change. I think we can agree on this one?

Everything I'm saying is just paraphrasing this statement, nothing else is given so no need to prove any theory, no need for you to believe or disbelieve.

So the self is something absolute by definition - if it is not absolute that means it's changing, if it's changing that means it's not isolated because it's a process, if it's not isolated then it's not a self. Therefore the only two possible outcomes are a) there is no self the self is not a part of life. Your only task is to find out which one is true, the rest is irrelevant.

The you that you think you are cannot know any absolute truth, the intellect cannot grasp the absolute because it's grounded in the relative - thus I do not claim knowledge of the absolute. I'm simply stating what isn't true. Please try to grasp the difference.

"The ego [sciential consciousness of the 6th sense of thought] uses the body to conspire against your mind [sapiential conscious beyond the 6 senses], and because the ego realizes that its "enemy" [the sapiential mind] can end them both [ego and body] merely by recognizing that they are not part of you [the sapiential mind, your Unborn Awareness]; they join in the attack together. This is perhaps the strangest perception of all, if you consider what it really involves. The ego, which is not real, attempts to persuade the mind, which is real, that the mind is ego's learning device, and further, that the body is more real than the mind is. No one in [his or her] right mind could possibly believe this, and no one in [his or her] right mind does believe it." A Course In Miracles 6 IV 5.

 

Regarding part 2 of your statement:

I'm not exactly sure what you are talking about, but I think you are asking me to perform a miracle or some form of magic in order to prove to you that you are asleep? Illusion has no power over me, how do you want me to demonstrate this? To be able to walk through walls requires more than truth realization, it requires surrendering of the 6 senses. I have yet to let go. If you are bent on criticizing the messenger and not focusing on the message, then you are simply not interested in truth. Deconditioning is a process. Forget about the ego, when I say my self, I never relate to the ego which is merely an error. If you fail to understand the reasoning behind truth, read it a few times and it will become clearer. But first let go of your prejudice and your beliefs about how truth realized people should look like or act like. There is a difference between truth realization and enlightenment.

[vonkrankenhaus]

Re:

-----

"Absolute truths don't have opposites, an absolute lie is an oxymoron, because lies are not absolute. The absolute is nondual and beyond dualistic concepts. 
Even the relative is not an opposite of absolute, because the relative is a lie. There is just the absolute, nothing else.
Manifestations are not real."

-----

 

How can there be multiple absolute truths?

 

Manifestations are actual, but temporary. Whatever begins, will also end.

 

In terms of relative and absolute:

If infinity = 0, how can the "finite" be the opposite of the "Infinite"?

 

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[Tatsumaru]

the first Jhana is not disconnected from the 2nd - etc... and following a pattern that extends and is inclusive  all the way to the "beyond of the beyond" per Buddhist doctrine - thus where does illusion begin or end?  (which btw are the same jhana's that the historic Buddha taught and practiced pre and post liberation according to well known doctrine)  btw #2 there is the saying that is close to, "samsara properly understood is Nirvana"

 

CT, really?

Are you talking about the four noble truths? The Buddha has said many things which weren't true intentionally, just to soften the rigid minds of his followers. For example he said that "Life is suffering" and that Nirvana is a special place you go to escape suffering to his students who were too much attached to suffering (which later became the Theravada delusion).

When his followers developed more mature desires and insights he actually said that life is not suffering and that there is nowhere else to go but here. At first he taught that there is no self, but later he explained that there is a self. So there is some disconnection and many people thought he was contradicting himself, but he was merely compassionate (aka coming up with creative ways to wake up sentient beings as fast as possible). 

Nirvana is the greatest happiness that can arise from surrendering hope, but nirvana is not enlightenment. Hope and fear arise from ego identification, upon uncovering that you are not the ego, hope and fear is gone. Nirvana does not end the cycle,...nirvana is part of the larger cycle,...it's the other side of the coin from samsara. Paranirvana is beyond the two sides of nirvana/samsara. Why does this matter? Because nirvana is VERY difficult to transcend. Nirvana is like matrix that is perceived as being positive.

"I know this steak doesn't exist. I know that when I put it in my mouth, the Matrix is telling my brain that it is juicy and delicious. After nine years, you know what I realize? Ignorance is bliss.....They'll reinsert my body, I go back to sleep. When I wake up, I won't remember a goddamn thing...." - Cypher, The Matrix

There’s a story in the Buddhist scriptures of a talented monk who wanted to find out the answer to the question, “Where do the four elements cease without remainder?” Through meditation he reached the Heaven of the Four Great Kings, who did not know the answer. Next he went to the thirty three gods in a higher Desire Realm heaven, but none of these rulers knew either. He then asked King Sakka (Indra), the king of these gods, but Sakka did not know the answer. Up and up he went asking all sorts of gods at each and every higher level. Finally he came to Great Brahma, the Creator, Uncreated, Knower of All.

When the monk finally achieved an audience with Great Brahma, Brahma appeared in all his majesty and glory announcing, "I am Great Brahma, the Conqueror, the Unconquered, the All-Seeing, All-Powerful, the Lord, the Maker and Creator, the Ruler, Appointer and Orderer, Father of All That Have Been and Shall Be." The monk then humbly and respectfully asked his question, but all Great Brahma did was repeat, "I am Great Brahma, the Conqueror, the Unconquered, the All-Seeing, All-Powerful, the Lord, the Maker and Creator, the Ruler, Appointer and Orderer, Father of All That Have Been and Shall Be."

The monk eventually got frustrated and said, “I know you are "Great Brahma, the Conqueror, the Unconquered, the All-Seeing, All-Powerful, the Lord, the Maker and Creator, the Ruler, Appointer and Orderer, Father of All That Have Been and Shall Be," but I asked you a question about where the four elements cease without remainder. The Great Brahma replied, “Listen little monk, don’t embarrass me. All these other gods are listening and think I know everything. If you want to know the answer to a question like that, don’t ask me. I don’t know the answer. For a question like that, you have to go ask the Buddha.”

[Marblehead]

An absolute truth is that there are no absolute things in time, and thus no things at all in time. Things exist only outside of time, within time "form is emptiness and emptiness is form". 

 

I watched a science documentary last night about black holes and they stated the time ceases to exist within a black hole.  It's a gradual slowing of time the closer you get to the black hole until you fall in.  Inside time doesn't exist.

[Tatsumaru]

Re:

-----

"Absolute truths don't have opposites, an absolute lie is an oxymoron, because lies are not absolute. The absolute is nondual and beyond dualistic concepts. 

Even the relative is not an opposite of absolute, because the relative is a lie. There is just the absolute, nothing else.

Manifestations are not real."

-----

 

How can there be multiple absolute truths?

 

Manifestations are actual, but temporary. Whatever begins, will also end.

 

In terms of relative and absolute:

If infinity = 0, how can the "finite" be the opposite of the "Infinite"?

 

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

There are multiple absolute truths because there are multiple aspects of the absolute. For example one absolute truth is that "there is no present in time", another absolute truth is that "there is no energy outside of time". These are not contradictions.

Manifestations are facts, but not truths. Scientists are concerned with facts, not truths.

 

Finite means duality, because finite means 1,2,3... thus finite is not real. Duality is an error in perception. There is no 1 without a 2. There is not mathematics without duality. Theories like mathematical truth, Big Bang and Black holes (Laura Mersini-Houghton) are scientific guesses or assumptions that arise from an Aristotelian logic that things must have a beginning and probable end; that cause precedes effect.

[Tatsumaru]

I watched a science documentary last night about black holes and they stated the time ceases to exist within a black hole.  It's a gradual slowing of time the closer you get to the black hole until you fall in.  Inside time doesn't exist.

Some quantum cosmologists like Steven Hawking and Jim Hartle have articulated some interesting insights through their observations; suggesting that concepts such as the classic Big Bang model, a belief in a beginning and an end, or the Christian model of a beginning without an end are meaningless, because time does not exist.

 

“You should know that from beginningless time all beings are continually born and continually die, simply because they do not know the everlasting true mind with its pure nature and bright substance. Instead they engage in false thinking. These thoughts are not true, and so they lead to further transmigration” -Buddha (Shurangama Sutra).

 

The perception of the flow of time actually keeps us from realizing that everything happens at once. This maya, or reality of duality, is as a universal timescape, synonymous with a motion picture. This perceived present of the 6 senses, is but one scene in an epic film. Although it seemed to have a start before the characters in this scene arrived, in order to build the story, the idea of the story did not likely start there, but at another point, perhaps in a scene in which the characters in the perceived present scene will never get to witness, which from their perspective, is far ahead in the film.

 

“The world of time and space is a projection” -Robert Monroe, Omni, October ’93.

[Marblehead]

Objective reality does exist and we can know it.

Yes Karl.  And please always remember that.

[3bob]

yea Tatsumaru, if there is not an understanding of Brahman beyond Lord Brahma I think people tend to get caught in some related limitations or misconceptions....  btw #3 I wouldn't harp to much on ACIM at this site even if it is the apple in your eye as it sounds to be, in fact harping by any of us per any pov tends to be counterproductive.

Edited July 2, 2016 by 3bob

[Marblehead]

 

There is no "real" un-real.

 

I like that.

[Marblehead]

Manifestations are not real.

Well, my chair is real.

[Tatsumaru]

Well, my chair is real.

No it isn't.

[Tatsumaru]

There is no "real" un-real.

 

-VonKrankenhaus

Exactly. That's most of what Buddha taught actually.

[Marblehead]

No it isn't.

 

Hehehe.  I just wanted to see your reaction.  I've been through this many times over.  No sense doing it again.

[3bob]

"inside time doesn't exist" By MH  , I'd say that is a good candidate for the four-fold negation...;-)

 

implosion and or "return" reaches mystery (thus who would say or could prove mystery does not exist?)

[Jetsun]

I think we are all afraid to die because we are in complete denial about the truth of the reality we live in, our minds work hard all day long every day to maintain the illusions and delusions we live by. 

[Marblehead]

"inside time doesn't exist" By MH  , I'd say that is a good candidate for the four-fold negation...;-)

 

implosion and or "return" reaches mystery (thus who would say or could prove mystery does not exist?)

Yeah, I hold to the concepts of reversion and cycles.  I argued this with Karl when we were talking about the Big Bang.

 

I know nothing about the four-fold negation so I have to let that slide.

 

I always get in trouble when I talk about "return" so I will let that slide too.  Hehehe.

[Marblehead]

I think we are all afraid to die because we are in complete denial about the truth of the reality we live in, our minds work hard all day long every day to maintain the illusions and delusions we live by. 

Interesting though, if one believes this manifest reality is just an illusion there should be absolutely no fear of death because it too would be an illusion.

[Jetsun]

Interesting though, if one believes this manifest reality is just an illusion there should be absolutely no fear of death because it too would be an illusion.

 

I don't mean that life is an illusion, rather a lot of the beliefs and stories we live by (and will often go to great lengths to protect) are illusory, in the sense they don't match up to the reality of the way things really are. 

[Tatsumaru]

I think we are all afraid to die because we are in complete denial about the truth of the reality we live in, our minds work hard all day long every day to maintain the illusions and delusions we live by. 

Yes. Basically we are afraid to die, because we identify with what dies, but isn't us.

 

Interesting though, if one believes this manifest reality is just an illusion there should be absolutely no fear of death because it too would be an illusion.

If one believes it then fear is still there, because belief means hope, hope means fear.

If one knows it's an illusion and has experienced that it's an illusion then the only fear that remains is bodily fear as a survival mechanism but a complete depersonalization and disassociation with the body.