Why are we afraid to die if it's inevitable?

[Tatsumaru]

I don't mean that life is an illusion, rather a lot of the beliefs and stories we live by (and will often go to great lengths to protect) are illusory, in the sense they don't match up to the reality of the way things really are. 

Life is an illusion. Reality is beyond life.

[Marblehead]

I don't mean that life is an illusion, rather a lot of the beliefs and stories we live by (and will often go to great lengths to protect) are illusory, in the sense they don't match up to the reality of the way things really are. 

Darn.  You just spoiled the fun I thought I was going to have with that.  Hehehe.

[Jetsun]

Life is an illusion. Reality is beyond life.

In what way is life an illusion?

[Marblehead]

 

If one believes it then fear is still there, because belief means hope, hope means fear.

 

Good point.  I try to not use the word "hope" too often.

If one knows it's an illusion and has experienced that it's an illusion then the only fear that remains is bodily fear as a survival mechanism but a complete depersonalization and disassociation with the body.

 

Ah!, I just can't disassociate myself from my body because it is within my body that my brain lies.

[Marblehead]

Life is an illusion. Reality is beyond life.

That sounds like a Taoist saying "I am lost in Wu."

[Tatsumaru]

In what way is life an illusion?

Life is time, space, movement, energy, change. There is no time, space, movement, energy or change in the absolute.

Life doesn't really exist.

To better understand this consider this scenario. If you are in a cinema - then the absolute is the still light in the projector and life is a movie projected on the screen.

[Karl]

Life is time, space, movement, energy, change. There is no time, space, movement, energy or change in the absolute.

Life doesn't really exist.

To better understand this consider this scenario. If you are in a cinema - then the absolute is the still light in the projector and life is a movie projected on the screen.

Done that projector thing already. I do fancy that spaghetti dish in you avatar mind you.

 

You exist and are alive, do you doubt it ?

[Jetsun]

Life is time, space, movement, energy, change. There is no time, space, movement, energy or change in the absolute.

Life doesn't really exist.

To better understand this consider this scenario. If you are in a cinema - then the absolute is the still light in the projector and life is a movie projected on the screen.

 

Although I can't deny what you say is true I am more of a fan of the two truths doctrine, that relative and absolute truths are both important, otherwise there is a risk of falling into nihilism

[Tatsumaru]

 

 

If one believes it then fear is still there, because belief means hope, hope means fear.

 

Good point.  I try to not use the word "hope" too often.

If one knows it's an illusion and has experienced that it's an illusion then the only fear that remains is bodily fear as a survival mechanism but a complete depersonalization and disassociation with the body.

 

Ah!, I just can't disassociate myself from my body because it is within my body that my brain lies.

 

Naturally the ego-consciousness cannot let go of the ego-consciousness. But you are not the ego-consciousness, only misidentifying with it. Try this one:

 

The only thing you need to do is to surrender to your real self.

[Tatsumaru]

Although I can't deny what you say is true I am more of a fan of the two truths doctrine, that relative and absolute truths are both important, otherwise there is a risk of falling into nihilism

Relative intellect wants us to believe that it, the “i think” and “i sense” is real, and that to sustain ego, it must promote the absolute as nothing but nihilism; an activity which obscures the real joy they inherently desire to experience. Absolute truth is the end of your ego, thus the ego creates these unsettling feelings whenever it is threatened. Ignore them and focus on what's true. The ego wants you to think that the absolute truth is something other than pure joy and bliss, because if you realize that the absolute is pure joy then you won't treasure it anymore. The absolute is absolutely real and existing, a nihilist believe that nothing exists, so this is reality not nihilism.

[Jetsun]

Relative intellect wants us to believe that it, the “i think” and “i sense” is real, and that to sustain ego, it must promote the absolute as nothing but nihilism; an activity which obscures the real joy they inherently desire to experience. Absolute truth is the end of your ego, thus the ego creates these unsettling feelings whenever it is threatened. Ignore them and focus on what's true. The ego wants you to think that the absolute truth is something other than pure joy and bliss, because if you realize that the absolute is pure joy then you won't treasure it anymore. The absolute is absolutely real and existing, a nihilist believe that nothing exists, so this is reality not nihilism.

 

Ok, but try telling that to your bank manager or landlord when they next come knocking 

[Tatsumaru]

Ok, but try telling that to your bank manager or landlord when they next come knocking 

In video games you also have to complete quests, earn money, buy food and weapons etc.

Life is literally the same.

 

Until you wake up you need to maintain this body with food, housing, money etc. There is no problem with working and eating etc, however it's just a video game. Right now you believe you are the game and not the player. That's the root of suffering.

 

Wake up before the body dies.

Edited July 2, 2016 by Tatsumaru

[Karl]

In video games you also have to complete quests, earn money, buy food and weapons etc.

Life is literally the same.

Until you wake up you need to maintain this body with food, housing, money etc. There is no problem with working and eating etc, however it's just a video game. Right now you believe you are the game and not the player. That's the root of suffering.

 

Wake up before the body dies.

And you are awake ? How do you know your belief isn't another illusion. You can't believe anything you hear, or see in this video game world, so what makes you think these things you believe are any more real if nothing is real ?

 

You should wake up to reality before you get lost down a self created delusionary worm hole of insanity.

[Marblehead]

Naturally the ego-consciousness cannot let go of the ego-consciousness. But you are not the ego-consciousness, only misidentifying with it. Try this one:

 

 

The only thing you need to do is to surrender to your real self.

No, the video didn't help.

 

But the ego-consciousness is a part of me.  If I let it go then I would not be complete.

 

Your asking a career soldier to surrender?  You gotta be joking!

[Jetsun]

In video games you also have to complete quests, earn money, buy food and weapons etc.

Life is literally the same.

 

Until you wake up you need to maintain this body with food, housing, money etc. There is no problem with working and eating etc, however it's just a video game. Right now you believe you are the game and not the player. That's the root of suffering.

 

Wake up before the body dies.

 

Even after you wake up you have to maintain the body with food and housing etc and play by the rules of the game of life. Unless you become a sadhu beggar or something like that.

[3bob]

when only "God" is seen or known regardless of form or non-form then "reality" is seen or known

[Tatsumaru]

Done that projector thing already. I do fancy that spaghetti dish in you avatar mind you.

 

You exist and are alive, do you doubt it ?

I exist, but I am not alive. The only one who believes is alive is the ego-consciousness. If you still think you are alive then you haven't "done that projector thing". Again this sounds peculiar, but in the present there is no movement and thus no life. "No life" doesn't mean death, it just means a reality beyond movement and change, beyond life and death altogether. The only reality actually.

 

And you are awake ? How do you know your belief isn't another illusion. You can't believe anything you hear, or see in this video game world, so what makes you think these things you believe are any more real if nothing is real ?

 

You should wake up to reality before you get lost down a self created delusionary worm hole of insanity.

So basically you are asking - when you wake up, how do you know you are actually awake and not just gone crazy? That's a great question actually. This question arises because you do not know who you are, it comes from the mind, otherwise this question wouldn't arise. It's just not good enough to intellectually understand what you are. Statements like "I am consciousness" or "I am life" or "I am beyond life" - obviously it's not good enough. This is something that can't be practiced. You have to see it with your own authority. If you understand this, then you know that whatever answer I give you other than this one, won't be satisfactory. You seem to want to wake up from a dream but take the dream with you as well - that is impossible. Forget about the dream, surrender it altogether.

 

And again I don't hold beliefs about what is true. Everything I say is simply a regurgitation of the absolute truth that "whatever changes is not something that doesn't change". The only reason you are confused is because you enjoy your beliefs because they are giving your consolation and what I am saying is threatening those beliefs - that you are life, that you are what you see or hear. Even scientists know at this point that the senses do not provide an actual picture of reality so why are you still struggling?

 

“Recognize that everything you see and think is a falsehood, an illusion, a veil over the truth” - Lao Tzu.

When you said "you can't believe anything you hear or see in this video game world" you were exactly right! Waking up is not about making sense of the dream/video game. It's about realizing it's false and awakening to your true nature. Once you wake up you will experience all of what I am saying with absolute certainty.

 

No, the video didn't help.

 

But the ego-consciousness is a part of me.  If I let it go then I would not be complete.

 

Your asking a career soldier to surrender?  You gotta be joking!

The ego-consciousness is not part of you, it's a simulation. It's something like an onboard computer of your body vehicle.

Read this carefully a few times:

"The ego [sciential consciousness of the 6th sense of thought] uses the body to conspire against your mind [sapiential consciousness beyond the 6 senses], and because the ego realizes that its "enemy" [the sapiential mind] can end them both [ego and body] merely by recognizing that they are not part of you [the sapiential mind, your Unborn Awareness]; they join in the attack together. This is perhaps the strangest perception of all, if you consider what it really involves. The ego, which is not real, attempts to persuade the mind, which is real, that the mind is ego's learning device, and further, that the body is more real than the mind is. No one in [his or her] right mind could possibly believe this, and no one in [his or her] right mind does believe it." A Course In Miracles 6 IV 5.

 

So it's the other way around - until you let go of it, you won't be complete.

 

Even after you wake up you have to maintain the body with food and housing etc and play by the rules of the game of life. Unless you become a sadhu beggar or something like that.

 

Once you wake up, life doesn't matter anymore. You can maintain the body if you want to teach other people, but you can also leave the body if you want.

 

when only "God" is seen or known regardless of form or non-form then "reality" is seen or known

There is no  God.

Edited July 3, 2016 by Tatsumaru

[Gerard]

Why are we afraid to die if it's inevitable?

 

Worse is being afraid of living.

 

Nourish the Yin and you won't be afraid of anything!

 

[Gerard]

There is no  God.

 

There are many gods.

[Tatsumaru]

There are many gods.

Have you seen them?

[Karl]

I exist, but I am not alive. The only one who believes is alive is the ego-consciousness. If you still think you are alive then you haven't "done that projector thing". Again this sounds peculiar, but in the present there is no movement and thus no life. "No life" doesn't mean death, it just means a reality beyond movement and change, beyond life and death altogether. The only reality actually.

 

 

So basically you are asking - when you wake up, how do you know you are actually awake and not just gone crazy? That's a great question actually. This question arises because you do not know who you are, it comes from the mind, otherwise this question wouldn't arise. It's just not good enough to intellectually understand what you are. Statements like "I am consciousness" or "I am life" or "I am beyond life" - obviously it's not good enough. This is something that can't be practiced. You have to see it with your own authority. If you understand this, then you know that whatever answer I give you other than this one, won't be satisfactory. You seem to want to wake up from a dream but take the dream with you as well - that is impossible. Forget about the dream, surrender it altogether.

 

And again I don't hold beliefs about what is true. Everything I say is simply a regurgitation of the absolute truth that "whatever changes is not something that doesn't change". The only reason you are confused is because you enjoy your beliefs because they are giving your consolation and what I am saying is threatening those beliefs - that you are life, that you are what you see or hear. Even scientists know at this point that the senses do not provide an actual picture of reality so why are you still struggling?

“Recognize that everything you see and think is a falsehood, an illusion, a veil over the truth” - Lao Tzu.

When you said "you can't believe anything you hear or see in this video game world" you were exactly right! Waking up is not about making sense of the dream/video game. It's about realizing it's false and awakening to your true nature. Once you wake up you will experience all of what I am saying with absolute certainty.

 

 

 

Clearly I'm not getting through to you.

 

I say again, if nothing is real in this dream, then by what method can you prove a statement within the dream such as "recognising everything you see and think is falsehood..."

 

I know exactly who I am, but it appears you can't know exactly who you are because of this dream you say you have woken from, but in which there were no methods to prove anything.

 

What does 'see with your own authority" ? That sounds like a revelation to me. Revelations belong to the spiritual Mystics. It's interesting that you now cite 'scientists' as having some proof that you now depend upon to prove your argument, yet, you have admitted no proof is possible in this dream world.

 

Are you scientists in the dream world or in this new space in this new reality ? You are of course now relying on the Mystics of muscle to support your ideology. This is simply the sophist approach and it's a common cop out for intrincisists that see their towers begin to topple.

 

You believe whatever you want. All I'm saying is you should check your premise because they are conflicted. One or other must be right, not both. Either you are in a dream world in which no proof is possible, no statement means anything and no one exists, or you are not.

 

When we are awake we are fully aware of the concept of dreaming. There is no point at which we confuse the two states. If you were in a dream state then where would the information arise from beyond the dream state to let you know you were living in one ? If the information came to you from the dream state then it's dream information anyway and even if you thought you woke up, you just woke up inside the same big 'ole dream.

 

As soon as you begin ' I can't know reality, I can't prove anything' then you fall on your sword. You are left with divine revelation and sophist mumbling so about scientific proof that we can't have proof. You are saying 'I can't know anything is true, but I can know that this is true'. That's the contradiction and the flaw. This is why intrincisists get into circular arguments about 'revelations and Gods word being true' they cannot explain how they know it's true, except to say God is truth. It's true because it's true.

[Marblehead]

I exist, but I am not alive. The only one who believes is alive is the ego-consciousness.

 

That would be me.

[Marblehead]

The ego-consciousness is not part of you, it's a simulation. It's something like an onboard computer of your body vehicle.

Read this carefully a few times:

"The ego [sciential consciousness of the 6th sense of thought] uses the body to conspire against your mind [sapiential consciousness beyond the 6 senses], and because the ego realizes that its "enemy" [the sapiential mind] can end them both [ego and body] merely by recognizing that they are not part of you [the sapiential mind, your Unborn Awareness]; they join in the attack together. This is perhaps the strangest perception of all, if you consider what it really involves. The ego, which is not real, attempts to persuade the mind, which is real, that the mind is ego's learning device, and further, that the body is more real than the mind is. No one in [his or her] right mind could possibly believe this, and no one in [his or her] right mind does believe it." A Course In Miracles 6 IV 5.

 

So it's the other way around - until you let go of it, you won't be complete.

 

 

Oh, my!  They have it all backward.

 

BTW  I don't do or even believe in miracles.

 

I still have only five senses.  I guess I haven't evolved well.

 

BTW (again)  Consciousness and self-awareness are the ego.  It's nothing special.  We all have one.  Most of us misunderstand our ego because it has been shaped by others.  It is just as real as one who fully understands themselves.  It's just that it has been manipulated to the point of being a false image.

 

Our enemies (and yes, we all have mental enemies) are the false images we have of ourself.  Most of these enemies have been planted into our mind by others.  These are the enemies that must be destroyed.  Once destroyed we can finally see our true self.

 

 Our ego should be the tool that drives us to be all that we can be in order to attain inner peace and contentment.  Any thoughts we have in our mind that are counter to this state of being is an enemy.  Destroy it!

[Karl]

Be the hero in your own life story :-)

[Tatsumaru]

Clearly I'm not getting through to you.

 

I say again, if nothing is real in this dream, then by what method can you prove a statement within the dream such as "recognising everything you see and think is falsehood..."

 

I know exactly who I am, but it appears you can't know exactly who you are because of this dream you say you have woken from, but in which there were no methods to prove anything.

 

What does 'see with your own authority" ? That sounds like a revelation to me. Revelations belong to the spiritual Mystics. It's interesting that you now cite 'scientists' as having some proof that you now depend upon to prove your argument, yet, you have admitted no proof is possible in this dream world.

 

Are you scientists in the dream world or in this new space in this new reality ? You are of course now relying on the Mystics of muscle to support your ideology. This is simply the sophist approach and it's a common cop out for intrincisists that see their towers begin to topple.

 

You believe whatever you want. All I'm saying is you should check your premise because they are conflicted. One or other must be right, not both. Either you are in a dream world in which no proof is possible, no statement means anything and no one exists, or you are not.

 

When we are awake we are fully aware of the concept of dreaming. There is no point at which we confuse the two states. If you were in a dream state then where would the information arise from beyond the dream state to let you know you were living in one ? If the information came to you from the dream state then it's dream information anyway and even if you thought you woke up, you just woke up inside the same big 'ole dream.

 

As soon as you begin ' I can't know reality, I can't prove anything' then you fall on your sword. You are left with divine revelation and sophist mumbling so about scientific proof that we can't have proof. You are saying 'I can't know anything is true, but I can know that this is true'. That's the contradiction and the flaw. This is why intrincisists get into circular arguments about 'revelations and Gods word being true' they cannot explain how they know it's true, except to say God is truth. It's true because it's true.

So basically you are saying, if nothing in the dream is real, then how do you know what is true in order to recognize it when you experience it, right? Well that's a great question. One way of realizing you are in the dream is by asking "what is a thing?". A lot of people think that if nothing really exists, how can anything function? However, Nagarjuna said that it is precisely because everything does not really exist that everything functions. If everything were truly existent, existing in and of itself and thus being unchanging, things would not depend on anything. But then they could not interact with each other either because that entails change. Therefore, it is only due to everything changing all the time that interaction and functioning are possible. Ponder on this for a moment...

So this is basic logic that isn't pointing to what things are, but to what they aren't. You can play with it and try to prove it wrong, but you won't succeed (but please do try). Again we are not talking about what things are, but what they aren't. Since the lower 6 senses cannot comprehend emptiness the only thing we can do at this point is to recognize that we are not perceiving reality as it is. So if things in this dimension don't really exist then how can a self exist? Thus you realize that 1. either there's no self or 2. the self is not here. You must find out which one is true. However in both scenarios an idea that there is a true self here is ridiculous so you can recognize that your perception of what's going on is not real. The you that you think you are is not real. Basically you realize that you are not seeing truth because what you see cannot be truth by any definition. The only thing that is left is to surrender what is false, so only the truth is left at the end.

 

"Truth, like gold, is to be obtained not by its growth, but by washing away from it all that is not gold." - Leo Tolstoy

 

“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge” - Stephen Hawking

Please read my words more carefully. I never said anywhere that the scientists have proof of truth. I only said that scientists know that the senses aren't perceiving reality. So basically they have proof of illusion and understand that what we perceive as real is not real. This is not proof of truth. I don't know what you are talking about, different approaches, cop outs... you are not paying attention is all. You seem to be looking for an example of truth in a dream world. Such goal is futile. As I explained the only thing we can do is to explain what is not true, in order to let go of it.

 

There is no contradiction in what I'm saying.

 

You are correct that when we are awake we are fully aware of what dreaming is all about. You seem to be looking for a truth in the dream that would suggest you are dreaming. Is that possible? The only thing you get in the dream is the realization that what you think is going on cannot be real, because basically you perceive things in the absence of things. Thus you don't know what truth is, but you know that whatever you perceive isn't truth. This is the beginning of the journey. So there is no true information in the dream state, there is only realization of lies. As I said multiple times already, it's not about earning and learning your way out of the dream, since nothing from the dream can propel you towards truth. It's about UN-learning what is false in order to uncover a truth.

 

I never said that you can't know reality. I said that the you who you think you are (which is not real) cannot know reality. Drop your philosophies about this school of philosophy or that school of philosophy, this isn't about any school or approach. This is a simple regurgitation of what is obvious. You need to ask yourself the question - what is truth? Obviously truth is something that doesn't change, if it changes then it's not this or that, so you can't rely on it to make any conclusions. So knowing that truth doesn't change, and that everything you experience with the lower 6 senses is changing, the only obvious conclusion is that you aren't experiencing truth. Read this a few times until you grasp it. There are no contradictions here.

 

 

Edited July 3, 2016 by Tatsumaru