Mair - 2:1 - On the Equality of Things

[Shidifen]

ON THE EQUALITY OF THINGS (Chapter 2)

The Great Clod, a metaphor for the Earth and the Way, is introduced. An extended discussion of self and other, right and wrong, affirmation and denial, ensues. Transcendent knowledge goes beyond all such dichotomies.

A Sir Motley of Southurb sat leaning against his low table. He looked up to heaven and exhaled slowly. Disembodied, he seemed bereft of soul. Sir Wanderer of Countenance Complete, who stood in attendance before him, asked, "How can we explain this? Can the body really be made to become like withered wood? Can the mind really be made to become like dead ashes? The one who is leaning against the table now is not the one who was formerly leaning against the table."

"Indeed," said Sir Motley, "your question is a good one, Yen. Just now, I lost myself Can you understand this? You may have heard the pipes of man, but not the pipes of earth. You may have heard the pipes of earth, but not the pipes of heaven."

"I venture", said Sir Wanderer, "to ask their secret."

"The Great Clod," said Sir Motley, "emits a vital breath called the wind. If it doesn't blow, nothing happens. Once it starts to blow, however, myriad hollows begin to howl. Have you not heard its moaning? The clefts and crevasses of the towering mountains, the hollows and cavities of huge trees a hundred spans around: they are like nostrils, like mouths, like ears, like sockets, like cups, like mortars, or like the depressions that form puddles and pools. The wind blowing over them makes the sound of rushing water, whizzing arrows, shouting, breathing, calling, crying, laughing, gnashing. The wind in front sings aiee and the wind that follows sings wouu. A light breeze evokes a small response; a powerful gale brings forth a mighty chorus. When the blast dies down, then all the hollows are silent. Have you not seen the leaves that quiver with tingling reverberations? "

"The pipes of earth," said Sir Wanderer, "are none other than all of the hollows you have described. The pipes of man are bamboo tubes arrayed in series. I venture to ask what the pipes of heaven are."

"As for the pipes of heaven," said Sir Motley, "the myriad sounds produced by the blowing of the wind are different, yet all it does is elicit the natural propensities of the hollows themselves. What need is there for something else to stimulate them?"

 

Notes -

 

1. Sir Motley. His name may alternatively indicate that he has a sternly disciplined personality .

2. mind. The word hsin means both "heart" and "mind." We may think of it as the heart-mind.

3. Yen. Yen was apparently the disciple's real name, Sir Wanderer his sobriquet.

4. something else. Heaven is not an external agency. Rather, it is innate within everything.

[Rara]

I'm struggling with this one. It all just seems to me like an elaborate way of describing how the great outdoors is.

 

Judging by the way the last paragraph is delivered, there seems to be some significance to it, or perhaps a summary? I am failing to see the significance in what he's saying though...

[Marblehead]

Let's consider first that Sir Motley was meditating and completely in the state of "Wu" (the Spiritual).

 

When brought back to the Manifest by Yen running his mouth.

 

In response Sir Motley attempts to explain that there are differences between the way of man, the way of earth, and the way of Dao.

 

All translations I have seen have difficulty doing justice to this section.

[Rara]

Let's consider first that Sir Motley was meditating and completely in the state of "Wu" (the Spiritual).

 

When brought back to the Manifest by Yen running his mouth.

 

In response Sir Motley attempts to explain that there are differences between the way of man, the way of earth, and the way of Dao.

 

All translations I have seen have difficulty doing justice to this section.

That's it. I got the part with Sir Motley in a meditative state and explaining all these things to Yen with great metaphots and similies. The end just seems a little anti-climactic.

[Marblehead]

That's it. I got the part with Sir Motley in a meditative state and explaining all these things to Yen with great metaphots and similies. The end just seems a little anti-climactic.

 

Yeah, that's the thing about reading Chuang Tzu.  We shouldn't expect many answers.  What we see are mostly alternative perspectives.  And I agree, it is anti-climactic, almost disappointing that he doesn't tell us what is real and what is not; what is important and what is not.

 

It's up to us to decide after considering alternate perspectives.  That is, if we even want to decide.

Edited July 8, 2016 by Marblehead

[Taoist Texts]

I'm struggling with this one. It all just seems to me like an elaborate way of describing how the great outdoors is.

 

Judging by the way the last paragraph is delivered, there seems to be some significance to it, or perhaps a summary? I am failing to see the significance in what he's saying though...

 

 

Right you are Rara:) There is none to see in this translation. Its bunkum. Marblehead managed to catch a good glimpse of what the original says, though.

 

The original meaning goes like this.

 

A master practices breathing and enters into a trance (loses himself)

For whatever reason his student wants to learn this 'losing himself' and asks the master how it is done.

The master explains that it is done using   breathing techniques of which there are 3 kinds (he calls them 'pipes') - man pipe (ordinary human breath), wind pipe, and heavenly pipe.

Then master explains that in order to 'lose himself' he has to progress through three stages of this breathing, of which in the second one, in the wind pipe stage, he still retains his consciousness (the wind-maker).

The student asks - what about the heavenly breathing?

And the master replies: that's the thing, once I go to the third stage there is no one to control the breath ('something else to stimulate ' in Mair's transl.), the breath is spontaneous and I have achieved my goal of 'losing myself'.

[Daeluin]

Ziqi of the Southern Wall was reclining against a low table on the ground, releasing his breath into Heaven above, all in a ascatter, as if loosed from a partner.

 

Yancheng Ziyou stood in attendance before him. "What has happened here?" he said. "Can the body really be made like dried wood, the mind like dead ashes? What reclines against this table now is not what reclined against it before."

 

Ziqi said, "A good question, Yan! what has happened here is simply that I have lost me. Do you understand? You hear the piping of man but not yet the piping of the earth. You hear the piping of the earth but not yet the piping of Heaven."

 

Ziyou said, "Please tell me more."

 

Zipi replied, "When the Great Clump belches forth its vital breath, we call it the wind. As soon as it arises, raging cries emerge from all the ten thousand hollows. Don't tell me you've never heard how long the rustling continues, on and on! The towering trees of the forest, a hundred spans around, are riddled with indentations and holes -- like noses, mouths, ears; like sockets, enclosures, mortars; like ponds, like puddles. Roarers and whizzers, scolders and sighers, shouters, wailers, boomer, growlers! One leads with a yeeee! Another answers with a yuuuu! A light breeze brings a small harmony, while a powerful gale makes for a harmony vast and grand. And once the sharp wind has passed, all these holes return to their silent emptiness. Have you never seen all the tempered attunements, all the cunning contentions?"

 

Ziyou said, "So the piping of the earth means just the sound of these hollows. And the piping of man would be the sound of bamboo panpipes. What, then, is the piping of Heaven?"

 

Ziqi said, "It gusts through all the ten thousand differences, allowing each to go its own way. But since each one selects out its own, what identity can there be for their rouser?"

 

Zhuangzi tl Brook Ziporyn

 

 

 

DEAD TREES, COLD ASHES

 

When a tree is dead there is no flame when you burn it; when ashes are cold there is no warmth when you stir them. What I realize as I observe this is the Tao of transformation of temperament.

 

When people become temperamental, the harm is very great; the slightest offense sets them off into a rage. It damages nature and injures reason, so that they are unaware of their own greed and passion, they do not understand their own narrowness, they do not care about essential life, they are not mindful of life and death. The troubles this causes are not simple.

 

If one can master oneself and exercise restraint, turn back from inflexibility and become yielding, sweep away all anger, resentment, and annoyance, get rid of all contentiousness, change the aggressive and violent nature back into a gentle taciturn nature, concentrate the energy and make it flexible, empty the mind and nurture the spirit, be selfless and impersonal, not discriminate between self and others, view one's own body as having no such body, view one's mind as having no such mind, have no discrimination and no knowledge, and be empty and open, this is like dead wood not flaming when burnt, like cold ashes yielding no warmth when stirred.

 

One can thereby be in the midst of Creation without being influenced by Creation, be in the midst of yin and yang without being constrained by yin and yang.

 

Awakening to the Tao, Liu Yiming, tl Thomas Cleary

 

 

 

 

 

 

REVERSAL OF THE FIVE ELEMENTS

 

water     fire  

☵  ☲

 

    lake      thunder

☱  ☳

 

When the five elements do not go in order,

the dragon emerges from the fire;

With the art of reversing the five elements,

the tiger emerges in the water.

 

When the five elements go in order, wood produces fire, metal produces water/ when the five elements are reversed, fire produces wood, water produces metal. The wood produced by fire is wood that never decays, like wood that is treated by fire to become charcoal and lasts forever in the ground. The metal produced by water is metal that never rusts, like gold in a smelting furnace liquefying, then forming an ingot with uncommon brilliance.

 

Fire producing wood symbolizes the fundamental essence of human beings refined in the furnace of evolution to become permanently stable essence. Water producing metal symbolizes the true sense in human beings crossing over the waves of the ocean of desire to become permanently undefiled sense. This is what is meant by the saying of the ancient immortals, "When the five elements go in order, the universe is a pit of fire; when the five elements are reverse, the whole world is made of jewels."

 

The ignorant who do not know this consider mental circulation of energy horizontally and vertically within the body to be the reversal of the five elements. This is wrong. What they do not realize is that the body is wholly mundane; the internal organs and external faculties are all temporary things, becoming a pile of stinking bones and flesh when respiration stops -- where is there anything real? It is an impossible dream to be able to comprehend [xing] and [ming] through these temporary things.

 

Inner Teachings of Taoism / Solving Symbolic Language, Liu Yiming, tl Thomas Cleary

 

 

 

 

In chapter 1 we go on an exploration of the scope of individual things. We come to see that there may be great differences in the capacity of various things. We come to see that things may change their capacity, their scope, by following careful steps, and yet that they always need to depend upon something to support their scope. When attaching one's self-being to hats, one may become successful or unsuccessful based on how others value hats. And thus things are exchanged, and our ability to prosper and grow large or weaken and grow small all form a complex dance. Is this not like the piping of man?

 

Too we are asked what if we only depended upon heaven, earth, and the six atmospheric breaths. How would our scope and capacity be limited? And yet would we still be us?

 

Here we have the wind that is issued forth from the Great Clump (big bang-esque?). Is this not related to the six atmospheric breaths of between heaven and earth? On Earth we have forms, in Heaven we have the formless, and in between we have the myriad breezes and gusts, the changes of the 10,000 things according to the times.

 

So then, to depend upon nothing but Heaven and Earth and the six atmospheric breaths mentioned in chapter one, one merely steps out of the way, allowing the breath of heaven to breathe through his earthly hollows. In this way, as we shall see, one is able to adapt to all between in great harmony.

[Rara]

Right you are Rara:) There is none to see in this translation. Its bunkum. Marblehead managed to catch a good glimpse of what the original says, though.

 

The original meaning goes like this.

 

A master practices breathing and enters into a trance (loses himself)

For whatever reason his student wants to learn this 'losing himself' and asks the master how it is done.

The master explains that it is done using breathing techniques of which there are 3 kinds (he calls them 'pipes') - man pipe (ordinary human breath), wind pipe, and heavenly pipe.

Then master explains that in order to 'lose himself' he has to progress through three stages of this breathing, of which in the second one, in the wind pipe stage, he still retains his consciousness (the wind-maker).

The student asks - what about the heavenly breathing?

And the master replies: that's the thing, once I go to the third stage there is no one to control the breath ('something else to stimulate ' in Mair's transl.), the breath is spontaneous and I have achieved my goal of 'losing myself'.

Well this is more direct and conveys a different meaning, just because of how the language translates to English!

 

In fact, I prefer it

 

Sorry but I am a bit behind with your background in these texts. So this is a more accurate translation? And where can one find a copy?

[Taoist Texts]

Sorry but I am a bit behind with your background in these texts. So this is a more accurate translation? And where can one find a copy?

Yes it is a bit more accurate:). Its mine, i did not translate the whole ZZ, just bits and pieces. I would be glad to provide mine as this discussion unfolds.

[Marblehead]

I would be glad to provide mine as this discussion unfolds.

Yes!  Please.  That would be fun.  (I will be honest though so don't pay any attention to any criticism I might offer.)

[Stosh]

Though we have our innate characters (or nature) ,but we are on a stage in which those either play part , or lie dormant. 

Similar to a fly which lands on a wall , and just sits there , waiting for the stimulation of being out of harmony with its surroundings. It is dormant , its like its not even a living thing, ,  like ashes. 

But whether its something nearby which changes, or its own biology which shifts, eventually this pile of ashes takes to the air in search of a pile. 

What eventually makes the fly move is perhaps different from what moves a person to drive a car to the supermarket. The mind of a person has internal things going on which , don't have anything to do with the immediate physical environment, and may be somewhat particular to ourselves.

 

What need is there for something else to stimulate them?" 

 

Our ever changing circumstances are enough to give us reason to move , as someone else may have put it.. basically everything you do is from suffering a state of disharmony with what is. The whole world is burning. 

Edited September 19, 2016 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

Isn't it this need for harmony that moves us more than anything else? 

[Stosh]

Isn't it this need for harmony that moves us more than anything else?

 

We are the creators of need, the definers of it. And define our needs by our goals. Facts are just facts. You need air to live, but the unverse doesnt demand you live.