disillusioned AYP guy

[Hooded Stranger]

YOU SAY: please tell us enough so we know you are a real person and not a bot

 

I SAY  [in high-pitched Dalek voice]:  I ....  AM..... A  .... REAL .... PERSON ...NOT.... A ....BOT.

 

OK jokes aside.   I've been doing yoga and meditation for years and I have been at AYP for a while and I am disillusioned.  I have seen Tibetan_Ice and Karl voice similar concerns to mine.

 

Unlike as with Tibetan_Ice, the practices themselves worked fairly well for me.  As far as I can see (I never got to self-enquiry) it's pretty standard raja yoga, which is not right for everyone by any means.

 

What bothers me is the community.  The control that Yogani has, and the information isolation.  AYP is an information island as far as I can see.  And Yogani's 'anonymity' doesn't sit right with me either.

 

[Marblehead]

Hello Hooded Stranger, and welcome.

 

Your membership is approved and we're happy you found your way to us. We look forward to accompanying you on some of the way that you still have to go.

 

Please take the time to read the two posts pinned at the top of this Welcome page and take a look at the forum terms and rules. This covers all you need to know when getting started.

 

For the first week you will be restricted to ten posts per day but after that you can post as much as you like. Also, until you’ve posted fifteen times in the forums, you’ll be a “Junior Bum” with somewhat restricted access and will be allowed only two private messages per day.

 

Good luck in your pursuits and best wishes to you,

 

Marblehead and the TDB team

 

 

Hi Hooded Stranger,

 

Nice voice you have there when you go high pitched.

 

Yes, there are many here who enjoy talking about practices.  I'm sure you will find some valuable information.

 

You are welcome to jump right in ongoing discussions, revive an older thread, start a new thread of your own, or start a discussion in the "Newcomer Corner" sub-forms to expand on your introduction or ask general questions to help you get started.

 

May you enjoy your time here.

 

Marblehead

[Karl]

Welcome HS. It's far more open minded here and you will find all kinds of help for practices, or an open forum to question those practices.

[Jeff]

Welcome. How long were you a member of AYP? Join the for pay premium service?

 

Regards,

Jeff

[Jonesboy]

Welcome,

 

I was just disagreeing with them for locking a topic yesterday.

 

Welcome again to the bums.

 

Tom

[Karl]

Welcome,

I was just disagreeing with them for locking a topic yesterday.

Welcome again to the bums.

Tom

Eventually you will be threatened with a ban. I promised not to return and was as good as my word. Rarely look at it these days, every time I have they are all busily praising Yogani and saying how wonderful everybody is....right up to the time you disagree.

[sagebrush]

So it seems to me all forums...as with any grouping of individuals has its plus and minus.

 

I have plenty to add to AYP comments.

 

 

For myself it is not important to know about or of Yogani.

 

The secrets of Wilder book is one that I have not completed. Have you read the book?

 

From my lifes experiences...I cannot relate to starting celibacy in high school on an Olympic scale.

 

I was busy doing other activities.

 

But the way I can offset "his" mystery is to imagine that as I shop in a local grocery store-

do I know the owner or CEO of this store?

 

Might be a simple analogy to resort to.....

you are shopping for an energy system?

or you are shopping for food to create energy?

 

Do you get put off my not knowing Sam Walton? not saying you shop at Wal mart..this is just analogy....

 

in the end...it is all a smoke screen and bullshit across the boards. until I get my wretched mind straightened out

and peel back some fat..

 

what is your dilema

 

 

 

 

[Marblehead]

you are shopping for an energy system?

 

 

Solar energy is sound, ecologically friendly and renewable but start-up costs are painful.

[Karl]

So it seems to me all forums...as with any grouping of individuals has its plus and minus.

 

I have plenty to add to AYP comments.

 

 

For myself it is not important to know about or of Yogani.

 

The secrets of Wilder book is one that I have not completed. Have you read the book?

 

From my lifes experiences...I cannot relate to starting celibacy in high school on an Olympic scale.

 

I was busy doing other activities.

 

But the way I can offset "his" mystery is to imagine that as I shop in a local grocery store-

do I know the owner or CEO of this store?

 

Might be a simple analogy to resort to.....

you are shopping for an energy system?

or you are shopping for food to create energy?

 

Do you get put off my not knowing Sam Walton? not saying you shop at Wal mart..this is just analogy....

 

in the end...it is all a smoke screen and bullshit across the boards. until I get my wretched mind straightened out

and peel back some fat..

 

what is your dilema

Yes I've got TSOW and many others by Yogani. I've been an acolyte, but a slightly uneasy one. That unease grew and as I changed from AYP to Objectivism I began to realise that it had become an enormous rift. I had thought they were an open minded lot into all this esoteric new age stuff that others rejected, but then I challenged it.

 

I challenged several decisions as a mod, particularly with regard to other forums which were carefully watched for dissenters. There seemed to be an inordinate amount of effort devoted to squashing criticisms of AYP, until eventually this spiralled into the forum itself. It became clear that a clique had developed which I resolutely refused to join. Eventually I could no longer remain a mod as it had become akin to a propaganda policing role of which I was becoming both criminal and enforcer. The dichotomy forced me to resign in order that I could operate more freely and let others mod my posts. Quite quickly I discovered that I had fallen so far from grace that I had become a problem needing to be resolved.

 

At first Yogani acted exactly like the owner of a store, but as the years went by he took a more active role either directly, or through his disciples. I didn't see the point of it getting nasty- which was where it was headed-so I agreed to leave voluntarily. I can still post, but I promised not to interfere. The editor of my first book remains a strong advocate of Yoganis methods and thought I was having a momentary blip, rather than a complete refusal of the ideology. It actually helped me to make the transition to objectivism more quickly than perhaps I would have, so, some clouds do have silver linings ;-)

[Tibetan_Ice]

YOU SAY: please tell us enough so we know you are a real person and not a bot

 

I SAY [in high-pitched Dalek voice]: I .... AM..... A .... REAL .... PERSON ...NOT.... A ....BOT.

 

OK jokes aside. I've been doing yoga and meditation for years and I have been at AYP for a while and I am disillusioned. I have seen Tibetan_Ice and Karl voice similar concerns to mine.

 

Unlike as with Tibetan_Ice, the practices themselves worked fairly well for me. As far as I can see (I never got to self-enquiry) it's pretty standard raja yoga, which is not right for everyone by any means.

 

What bothers me is the community. The control that Yogani has, and the information isolation. AYP is an information island as far as I can see. And Yogani's 'anonymity' doesn't sit right with me either.

I never said that the practices don't work.

Please don't speak for me and misrepresent my point of view.

Sure, you get results like energetic overloading.

And TM does elicit the relaxation response.

 

AYP combines TM with Customized Raja yoga practices and has bastardized the understanding of Patanjali's last three limbs of yoga.

If you want to see the difference between TM and the benefits of developing true concentration, read The Attention Revolution by Alan Wallace.

Further, AYP does not promote understanding. It's "my way or the highway". A forum of parrots and ass kissers stuck in Yogani's poor understanding of yoga and what it takes to become enlightened. ( not all people on the forum are like that, I still have respect for the people who have seen through Yogani's "science experiment" and don't tow the AYP line)

If Yogani would show even a picture of himself then even the common psychic could read his aura and see what they were dealing with.

 

But who cares? It's all scenery anyway. Right? (sarcasm)

Edited July 7, 2016 by Tibetan_Ice

[Jonesboy]

Eventually you will be threatened with a ban. I promised not to return and was as good as my word. Rarely look at it these days, every time I have they are all busily praising Yogani and saying how wonderful everybody is....right up to the time you disagree.

Oh they have thought of it, discussed it.

 

I rarely go there anymore, I am still a moderator but even in the mod section when you are discussing things and people are saying how Deep Meditation is the Epitome of meditation techniques. It gets a little to much for me. So instead of pointing things out or disagreeing with them I prefer to stay away.

[Karl]

Oh they have thought of it, discussed it.I rarely go there anymore, I am still a moderator but even in the mod section when you are discussing things and people are saying how Deep Meditation is the Epitome of meditation techniques. It gets a little to much for me. So instead of pointing things out or disagreeing with them I prefer to stay away.

And that's the best way. I don't begrudge them that sort of clique and enforced dogma, it just doesn't suit me. Eventually those that don't sit well will work there way out from the nest.

[Hooded Stranger]

Thankyou all for your welcomes.

 

Jeff,  I have been doing AYP for about 3 years.  No, I have not and won't be doing the premium service.

 

 

 

I never said that the practices don't work.
Please don't speak for me and misrepresent my point of view.
 

 

 

TI,  you're the only one of us misrepresenting someone here. You seem to have misunderstood me.  I did not say you said AYP practices don't work.  I implied only that AYP does not work for you, which I am sure you would agree with from your posts.  That was not a criticism on my part.  I have agreed with all of your concerns about Yogani's personality and the community.  Now, please don't be so prickly, and please let's be friends.

 

-----

 

A question if anyone knows: most of what I saw was pretty standard raja yoga as I said, but there is plenty of Yogani spin and I'm not sure I'd agree with all of that.  But here is my question:  I did not cover AYP Self Enquiry as I said.  Does anyone know how particular that is to him?  Is it an innovation of his, or a re-packaging of standard self-enquiry?

 

 

 

 

For myself it is not important to know about or of Yogani.

 

The secrets of Wilder book is one that I have not completed. Have you read the book?

 

 

Well, I can't disagree that it is not important to you.  It depends on what you want. I'm approaching this writing here partially in the spirit of investigative journalism.  I am writing here as three things: spiritual seeker, and as investigator and journalist.  I think AYP community needs some serious investigative journalism.

 

I did read Secrets of Wilder.  I'll be explaining what I think that is about.

 

As I'll be explaining probably tomorrow,  AYP is an isolated island, informationally.  While thousands visit the site per day, ( did I hear 20,000 page views?) and hundreds of thousands of person-hours of work are put in there, there is tremendous unaccountability there, on several levels.  And Yogani's 'anonymity' is part of that.  It's a community with real human investment and no accountability.

 

This has both social and spiritual implications.

 

Hopefully, I'll be putting up a post tomorrow explaining why.

[Karl]

Yeah, we'll be careful what you wish for. There are some obstinate posters in here - not moi of course :-)

[Jeff]

Hi HS,

 

Yes, I got to know Yogani pretty well over a lot of emails and some active forum disagreements. Many years ago the forums were much more open, but then he wanted to consolidate it all to only supporting AYP stuff. With that shift, many of the older forum members and AYP retreat leaders left.  Of the old retreat leaders/teachers, I think only Christi is still an AYP practitioner.

 

Regards,

Jeff

[RiverSnake]

Doing research, always keeping my bullshit meter on high alert, and focusing on reading the energy of people and groups has helped me side step a lot of nonsense and go straight to the people whom know what the hell there talking about.

 

Keep an open and questioning mind, Yogani will not likely be the last shady character you come across in this scene. Best of luck on your path.

Edited July 8, 2016 by OldChi

[Tibetan_Ice]

...

 

TI, you're the only one of us misrepresenting someone here. You seem to have misunderstood me. I did not say you said AYP practices don't work. I implied only that AYP does not work for you, which I am sure you would agree with from your posts. That was not a criticism on my part. I have agreed with all of your concerns about Yogani's personality and the community. Now, please don't be so prickly, and please let's be friends.

 

 

I did AYP for 4 1/2 years. I practiced 2 or 3 times a day and missed only 3 days during that 4 1/2 years.

 

Your statement that AYP is "pretty standard raja yoga" bothers me. You mustn't have any experience with Raja Yoga because if you did, you wouldn't be saying that. There is no TM style mantra meditation in Raja Yoga. There is mantra repetition in Raja Yoga but it is for the energetic signature which resonates with the various chakras or psychic channels, stimulating sympathetic resonating with thought forms and energetic bodies. TM (or Deep Meditation) is a form of meditation which stimulates the relaxation response. Yogani's mantras are a gross misunderstanding. You never find AUM in the middle of true Hindu mantras as AUM is usually always at the beginning.

 

Yogani took the AUM out of spinal breathing.

He redefined "samyama" and deceives people about it.

 

Here is a link about how AYP is not "standard" anything. It is Yogani's science experiment.. And the public are his Guinea pigs.

 

http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/21469-patanjalis-sutras-and-samyama-questions/page-1

 

Tell me this. How do you know that AYP is Pretty standard Raja Yoga? Do you have a background of some other source of Raja Yoga to compare it to? How long did you practice that "standard Raja Yoga" ? Why did you leave your Raja Yoga guru and join AYP?

This is a Raja Yoga book:

https://www.himalayanacademy.com/view/merging-with-siva

 

The main method of pranayama is a controlled breathing pattern of 9-1-9-1. In AYP there is no strictly regulated breathing pattern for pranayama.

 

And if you don't have any other background, how can you say that "AYP worked for you"? Maybe what you think is samadhi is not samadhi at all, or a lesser form. Cultivating ecstatic conductivity is way different from the bliss derived from solid concentrative meditation. Anyone can train the orgasmic nerves to stay "on" after years of practice. To think that that has any relation to realization is a misdirection. Even Yogani's definition of realization as the combination of ecstatic conductivity and inner silence is a pile of crap. There is already tons of bliss in rigpa, the pristine awareness, the primordial ground, you don't have to cultivate and join it to anything. Buddhism teaches not to be attached to it, unlike the gross grasping at sexual energy that AYP promotes.

 

Yogani says from his "Liberation –The Fruition of Yoga Yogani From The AYP Enlightenment Series":

 

In the AYP system of practices, two primary angles of approach are recognized and addressed, leading to a third, which is the unfoldment of freedom.

The cultivation of abiding blissful inner silence.

The cultivation of ecstatic conductivity and radiance.

The joining of these two in an outpouring of ecstatic bliss and unity in daily living.

 

If you want to prop yourself up as an authority on Raja Yoga and declare that AYP is "standard", then prove it to me. But just from what you wrote and how you wrote it I know you don't have the background.

[Michael Sternbach]

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Moderator Notice

 

Since this topic has expanded beyond what is common for a Welcome thread, it has been moved to the Newcomer Corner.

 

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[Hooded Stranger]

Jeff, that is interesting about the 'consolidation'.  Do you happen to know what year the 'consolidation' happened?

 

Hi HS,

 

Yes, I got to know Yogani pretty well over a lot of emails and some active forum disagreements. Many years ago the forums were much more open, but then he wanted to consolidate it all to only supporting AYP stuff. With that shift, many of the older forum members and AYP retreat leaders left.  Of the old retreat leaders/teachers, I think only Christi is still an AYP practitioner.

 

Regards,

Jeff

[Hooded Stranger]

Karl, that is amazing if I am hearing you correctly.  Am I hearing you that they 'watch' other online forums for dissenters from AYP at AYP moderator's forum?

 

What forum(s) do they watch?  I presume Daobums is one of them.  Where all the bad kids hang out. 

 

That is REALLY culty behavior if I am hearing you correctly, it sounds like what Scientology does.  They are always scanning the internet for anti-Scientology stuff.

 

If they are unhappy with what they see, do they visit the forum in question?  'Entryism'?  And defend the Master?

 

 

I challenged several decisions as a mod, particularly with regard to other forums which were carefully watched for dissenters. There seemed to be an inordinate amount of effort devoted to squashing criticisms of AYP, until eventually this spiralled into the forum itself. It became clear 
 

[Hooded Stranger]

TI, responding to your post with snippet below.

 

Every forum has its own system and I suppose I'll learn the ropes here.  While I hated, detested even, the AYP control of opinions, there was a lot to be said for their strict civility requirements, which TIs post would fail on several grounds.  Ultimately, it took a lot of noise and waste of energy out of the threads, and almost certainly made the forum more attractive in the long run and serve its purpose more.

 

TI, I am not sure you deserve to be responded to here.  I am not sure your post is not just an attempt at browbeating, a dharma/scholarship peeing contest, and nothing more.  I have no time for dharma/scholarship peeing contests.  In the future I'll ask you to edit out the browbeating out of your posts before I respond.  Later, if that doesn't work, I'll just ignore you.

 

For this one I'll respond.

 

You may be under illusion as to the whole nature of spirituality and its adjunct, spiritual scholarship. Scholarship is just an add-on, a system of handles to help the mind grasp things.  The systematic division of Yoga is just that, a classification system designed to help.  Other classification systems are valid.

 

It's not like we are here in this spiritual life to be the best scholar in the class, and smack down the others.  Definitions of things are particular to a school and context. Being a pedant helps no-one. You don't get to push the definitions of one school and make others wrong with it. You don't get to read a book on Raja Yoga and then think that someone who has a definition or view of Raja Yoga as being somewhat more expansive than what is contained in your book gets to be hit over the head and made wrong and inferior to your knowledge set.

 

I like Sivananda's division of yoga here:  

http://www.sivananda.org/teachings/fourpaths.html#raja

 

He does four paths and puts Raja Yoga and Hatha Yoga together.  That makes a lot of sense to me, but some people put Hatha Yoga separate. You could have great scholarship fights regarding definitions about that if you like.  If you like.

 

Everything I saw at AYP with the exception of Self-Enquiry was Raja Yoga as Sivananda defines it. 

 

It is true that there is no real 'standard raja yoga'.  But you have to read someone's words carefully.  You misquote me, taking out the word 'pretty' in my saying that it was pretty standard Raja Yoga. There could be a world of difference between saying it is pretty standard Raja Yoga and that it is standard Raja Yoga.  The phrase 'pretty standard' here is meant by me to mean fairly mainstream,  fairly common, not strange or unusual or particular, and most importantly, not an innovation by Yogani.

 

No,  when I say 'pretty standard Raja Yoga' I don't mean yoga out of the Big Bully Book of Standard Raja Yoga which Makes All Other Scholars Wrong. if that is what you are thinking.

 

That is the only issue of substance I found to be addressed, the question of why I found AYP ( not including self-enquiry) to be pretty standard Raja Yoga.  The rest I determine to be mere browbeating, and I have no intention of addressing it.  Good luck with that.

 

 

 

I did AYP for 4 1/2 years. I practiced 2 or 3 times a day and missed only 3 days during that 4 1/2 years.

Your statement that AYP is "pretty standard raja yoga" bothers me. 

 .....
If you want to prop yourself up as an authority on Raja Yoga and declare that AYP is "standard", then prove it to me. But just from what you wrote and how you wrote it I know you don't have the background.

Edited July 8, 2016 by Hooded Stranger

[Jeff]

Jeff, that is interesting about the 'consolidation'.  Do you happen to know what year the 'consolidation' happened?

It was in early 2014 as Yogani was getting prepared for AYP Plus. The big issue for him was around how the "other systems subforum" was getting a lot of attention and creating some controversy. Also, many of the mods wanted to help/advise new forum members that came with kundalini issues. Such help was often non standard AYP advice and Yogani was worried about how it might be percieved (or issues attached to AYP).

 

Also, book purchases had funded the costs for the website, and sales had dropped off when most of the older senior members had stopped giving retreats. Yogani was looking for a new revenue model to support the program, which led to AYP plus subscription service.

 

Yogani honestly believes that he has a complete system and does not seem open to any changes/enhancements to it. Every advanced issue is just declared "overload" and practioners are advised to moderate, rather than sharing broader understanding and helping with the blockage/issues, or offering more advanced practices from other traditions.

[Mandrake]

. Every advanced issue is just declared "overload" and practioners are advised to moderate, rather than sharing broader understanding and helping with the blockage/issues, or offering more advanced practices from other traditions.

 

If the house caught fire, turning the torch to "medium" is hardly any help at all.

[Jeff]

If the house caught fire, turning the torch to "medium" is hardly any help at all.

 

 

Yes, especially when there is already a built in sprinkler system that no one had noticed or thought to turn on.  

[Michael Sternbach]

YOU SAY: please tell us enough so we know you are a real person and not a bot

 

I SAY  [in high-pitched Dalek voice]:  I ....  AM..... A  .... REAL .... PERSON ...NOT.... A ....BOT.

 

I should ban you, but...

 

 

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