why fear enlightenment since it's inevitable?

[laughingblade]

Why fear enlightenment since it's inevitable. sooner or later (so to speak) and always at the turning of the cosmic cycle...

 

Maybe I'm just a beginner at all this, but isn't it traditional to argue that it's the ego which fears it's own dissolution/death?

 

Considering your question directly:

Who fears enlightenment?

What do you mean by enlightenment?

I've heard that enlightenment is about the present, even if that's an all-encompassing present.

What do you mean by "sooner or later"?

"so to speak" - is this significant? Or a 'knowing' aside?

"always" - doesn't this add a circularity, begging the question of inevitability?

What's the cosmic cycle? On what basis do you assert it's reality other than the authority of some scripture? How can I verify that there's such a thing? Why would one base the idea of enlightenment, however defined, on an unknown?

 

((Rich))

[Bud Jetsun]

I believe my ego tries to defend me from feeling pain, that the whole structure is an elaborate and misguided defence mechanism against pain.

Your egos trained/indoctrinated from birth choice process to interpret this one fleeting gift of life as pain rather than a gift of a beautiful range of sensory phenomena has been and will remain the singular source and giver of all your pain, and the defender of none of it. Your true Self has no need of defense or offense, it enjoys unbreakable contentment.

 

It is the egos illusion game to pretend to offer defense, and to convincingly and continuously pretend it's existence and survival is all that IS.

 

It's a fool's game to go defining the indefinable like enlightenment. It is possible for a being to choose to conclude delusion and preference and conditionality for being appreciatively present in this one infinitesimal moment of reality.

 

This doesn't occur from adding new delusions to the pile of pointless monkey-mind mental constructs, but through finding an appreciation for this already divinely perfect Now.

 

Unlimited Love,

-Bud

Edited July 10, 2016 by Bud Jetsun

[3bob]

[text in black from Rich, blue from me]:

"Maybe I'm just a beginner at all this, but isn't it traditional to argue that it's the ego which fears it's own dissolution/death?

Considering your question directly:
Who fears enlightenment?

who or what fears love's cutting blade?

What do you mean by enlightenment?

for starters: joy without its opposite of sorrow kicking in 

 

I've heard that enlightenment is about the present, even if that's an all-encompassing present.
What do you mean by "sooner or later"?

"sooner or later" is from a relative pov in time, space and evolutionary form which does not apply to a non-dual realization of present 

"so to speak" - is this significant? Or a 'knowing' aside?

so to speak - as in alluding to not divorcing manifest from non-manifest 

 

"always" - doesn't this add a circularity, begging the question of inevitability?

What's the cosmic cycle? On what basis do you assert it's reality other than the authority of some scripture? How can I verify that there's such a thing? Why would one base the idea of enlightenment, however defined, on an unknown?"

all types of cycles are more or less circular which is very observable,  and on the grandest scale there is the cosmic cycle.  (for instance and on a lesser scale galaxies are formed, exist and then fade out or end in some way after billions of years)  

((Rich))

Edited July 10, 2016 by 3bob

[Spotless]

There is no ego - there are patterned behaviors that glue us to the trance of our personal tornado - in Awakening the tornado stops, the fear drops, the positions have lost their inertia. The unborn Presence emerges.

 

Enlightening continues - nothing is precluded - suffering is ended, seeking is ended - it does not mean a cake walk has just ensued.

 

Until it happens try not to clutter the glue any more than it already is - nothing in the concepts do anything but bind your mind further.

This is why Awakening is so incredibly enlightening.

[3bob]

yea many of us know of that transcendent, quasi-whatever sounding stuff Spotless, yet we still have to relate in and to the world, so tell us dharma, karma, form and ego do not exist while you use such tools - haha or hehe... 

[laughingblade]

who or what fears love's cutting blade?

  very good, grasshopper.

 

Your cycles thing is an extrapolation from observed cycles, not something directly perceived. I guess I could equally pick something that has a beginning, a middle, and an end, then extrapolate from that to show that everything has an end... A good example might be galaxies (, which) are formed, exist and then fade out or end (...oops! ). So of course, when it all ends we're all dead, no consciousness, no enlightenment: better get some in now, while you're alive in a human body (which reminds me of Kabir).

 

My point is that your assertion that there's an end (cyclic or otherwise) wherein we're all enlightened doesn't hold much water.

 

But then what do I know, I'm just the window cleaner.

 

 

said to the wanting-creature inside me:

What is this river you want to cross?

There are no travelers on the river-road, and no road.

Do you see anyone moving about on that bank, or nesting?

 

There is no river at all, and no boat, and no boatman.

There is no tow rope either, and no one to pull it.

There is no ground, no sky, no time, no bank, no ford!

 

And there is no body, and no mind!

Do you believe there is some place that will make the

soul less thirsty?

In that great absence you will find nothing.

 

Be strong then, and enter into your own body;

there you have a solid place for your feet.

Think about it carefully!

Don't go off somewhere else!

 

Kabir says this: just throw away all thoughts of

imaginary things,

and stand firm in that which you are.

Kabir

[3bob]

nailing Christ to a cross doesn't hold much water either since neither nails nor death could hold Him... you kind of put some words in my mouth in your last post bubba,  I meant a particular galaxy coming to an end yet galaxies and their cycles continue on with the same energy reformed into new galactic manifestations or subsets of same... also when various manifestations, forms and identities are all withdrawn during part of the cycle back to source - then all that is left is the unborn and undying "enlightenment" which could be said to be the Real without change or us, yet really indescribable except through some often over-used transcendental, vague, zenny, poetic, or etc. type hints.  Btw #2 if I harped on an "all that is left" (so to speak) as being 'all that there is' along with saying that existence or 'all the rest of it' as being illusions then for me that would be a grandiose way of sticking my head up my ass.

Edited July 11, 2016 by 3bob

[Tibetan_Ice]

There is no ego - there are patterned behaviors that glue us to the trance of our personal tornado - in Awakening the tornado stops, the fear drops, the positions have lost their inertia. The unborn Presence emerges.

 

Enlightening continues - nothing is precluded - suffering is ended, seeking is ended - it does not mean a cake walk has just ensued.

 

Until it happens try not to clutter the glue any more than it already is - nothing in the concepts do anything but bind your mind further.

This is why Awakening is so incredibly enlightening.

Spotless,

Here is a definition of enlightenment, for you who claim to have awoken and be enlightened.

Do you know your countless previous lives? Do you know the minds of others? Can you manifest yourself into countless beings?

 

https://youtu.be/m34izufsuQI

[Brian]

sooner or later (so to speak) and always at the turning of the cosmic cycle...

What makes you think I fear enlightenment?

 

<shrug>

[Bindi]

Your egos trained/indoctrinated from birth choice process to interpret this one fleeting gift of life as pain rather than a gift of a beautiful range of sensory phenomena has been and will remain the singular source and giver of all your pain, and the defender of none of it. Your true Self has no need of defense or offense, it enjoys unbreakable contentment.

 

It is the egos illusion game to pretend to offer defense, and to convincingly and continuously pretend it's existence and survival is all that IS.

 

It's a fool's game to go defining the indefinable like enlightenment. It is possible for a being to choose to conclude delusion and preference and conditionality for being appreciatively present in this one infinitesimal moment of reality.

 

This doesn't occur from adding new delusions to the pile of pointless monkey-mind mental constructs, but through finding an appreciation for this already divinely perfect Now.

 

Unlimited Love,

-Bud

 

 

Bud, I am completely and utterly happy with and committed to the long way round. 

 

 

Traditional Advaita says that the ego is an illusion. [Neo Advaitans] emphasize this as the starting point, completely omitting that this realization may only occur at the end of years of self-inquiry and work on oneself (and not necessarily with any certainty).

 

http://www.spiritualteachers.org/neo_advaita_article.htm

 

 

 

 

Edited July 11, 2016 by Bindi

[Bindi]

There is no ego - there are patterned behaviors that glue us to the trance of our personal tornado - in Awakening the tornado stops, the fear drops, the positions have lost their inertia. The unborn Presence emerges.

 

Enlightening continues - nothing is precluded - suffering is ended, seeking is ended - it does not mean a cake walk has just ensued.

 

Until it happens try not to clutter the glue any more than it already is - nothing in the concepts do anything but bind your mind further.

This is why Awakening is so incredibly enlightening.

 

I find the process of disentangling ego from Self to be an uncluttering process with at least the possibility of 'enlightenment' at the end of this exact path (whether or not enlightenment will be achieved) and with no intermediate stage of 'awakening' necessary.  

[3bob]

ok Brian, "fear" was not the best word to use although it has some relevance as mentioned by Silent Thunder in post 19 and others to whatever extent...

Edited July 11, 2016 by 3bob

[Spotless]

I find the process of disentangling ego from Self to be an uncluttering process with at least the possibility of 'enlightenment' at the end of this exact path (whether or not enlightenment will be achieved) and with no intermediate stage of 'awakening' necessary.

 

You're attempting to engineer enlightenment - all the best to you on your journey.

 

All the best to all of you!

Edited July 11, 2016 by Spotless

[Jetsun]

It is quite an interesting question as I doubt the caterpillar is gripped by fear and resistance when transforming into a butterfly, hardly anything ever seems to interfere with that process. But with us humans our resistance goes into overdrive when faced with foundational change, which I guess is a feature of the imagination which imagines all sorts of terrifying scenarios as to what would happen if they allowed change in; most animals don't have a developed enough frontal cortex to interfere with a natural process but we tend to think we know better than the wider intelligence of life.

[Brian]

ok Brian, "fear" was not the best word to use although it has some relevance as mentioned by Silent Thunder in post 19 and others to whatever extent...

Understood. I was more playing off my similar response in the "why fear death" thread.

 

Personally, I don't give much thought to enlightenment (or lots of other "results"-type topics) one way or the other.

[3bob]

Does the 'Noble eight fold path' , 'Raja yoga or other types of yoga' engineer enlightenment?  And what of the many Taoist practices... etc. etc. etc. ?  I agree with you Spotless in a way or  in the sense that such are preparations thus not a guarantee that can be forced - being that one still has to make a leap of faith along with reaching out into the unknown - which can't be engineered or give predetermined results if that is what you were implying. (?)

[Bindi]

You're attempting to engineer enlightenment - all the best to you on your journey.

 

All the best to all of you!

 

If I understand you correctly, you are recommending 'no mind', do you equate no mind with the immediate dissolution of ego and karma?

[laughingblade]

 

nailing Christ to a cross doesn't hold much water either since neither nails nor death could hold Him

Huh? More stories. Gimme something verifiable.

 

 

I meant a particular galaxy coming to an end yet galaxies and their cycles continue on with the same energy reformed into new galactic manifestations or subsets of same

I know what you meant - I was pointing out that you could easily have used the same example to illustrate the precise opposite conclusion. Anyway I think details of galaxy formation and 'evolution' are still pretty hotly debated.

 

OTOH we're neurologically wired for hope/belief, and it seems entirely possible that a belief in cycles + "as above, so below" is actually a function of brain structure and the systems that emerge from it: i.e. another perceptual mechanism, not a direct grokking of some external reality.

 

 

when various manifestations, forms and identities are all withdrawn during part of the cycle back to source - then all that is left is the unborn and undying "enlightenment"

This is a story. At best it implies enlightenment is some kind of extinction. That would surely be no fun at all. As far as we know, based on the reports of allegedly enlightened beings: it's done in a human body, and it's not extinction. See my Kabir quote above

 

Cultivation works, meditation works; this isn't zenny, transcendental or any such-like. We're alive right now! If you don't like Kabir then how about Dogen? He (kind-of) says: "Everything you need is right here, now, in this skin bag. Just turn the light to shine within, and don't turn away. Take another breath, and then exhale."

[3bob]

so you can piss pretty far, good luck with that laughingblade.

Edited July 12, 2016 by 3bob

[3bob]

If I understand you correctly, you are recommending 'no mind', do you equate no mind with the immediate dissolution of ego and karma?

 

negation or affirmation can both have a "engineering" type aspect, (as Spotless seemingly put it) and as so often pointed out by so many.  

 

I'd say Spirit caught in identification per ego/karma's can be  freed for awhile with wise, graceful and powerful help thus letting Spirit remember itself. (so to speak),  but such a timeless "for awhile" has limits until the soul does all the work and preparation it can - thus reaching a point where Spirit chooses and dominates - for there is no free lunch but there is Grace coming into action - where soul no longer slips or gets stuck  per ego and karma's back into limited identifications.  

Edited July 12, 2016 by 3bob

[laughingblade]

so you can piss pretty far, good luck with that laughingblade.

Thanks for engaging 3bob. I'm not trying to out-do you. I thought that was a pretty decent post: challenging your points, not personal, and offering alternative viewpoints.

 

But hey-ho, if this is the kind of thing you think is serious...

 

but such a timeless "for awhile" has limits until the soul does all the work and preparation it can - thus reaching a point where Spirit chooses and dominates - for there is no free lunch but there is Grace coming into action

 

How do you confuse an Irishman? Stand him in a dustbin and tell him to piss in the corner.

[3bob]

No biggy laughingblade,  btw the Tao can not be put in a verify box.  

[Bindi]

negation or affirmation can both have a "engineering" type aspect, (as Spotless seemingly put it) and as so often pointed out by so many.  

 

I'd say Spirit caught in identification per ego/karma's can be  freed for awhile with wise, graceful and powerful help thus letting Spirit remember itself. (so to speak),  but such a timeless "for awhile" has limits until the soul does all the work and preparation it can - thus reaching a point where Spirit chooses and dominates - for there is no free lunch but there is Grace coming into action - where soul no longer slips or gets stuck  per ego and karma's back into limited identifications.  

 

I am only focusing on all the work and preparation that I perceive as necessary at the stage I am at, which is clearing nadi’s and chakras, allowing energy to flow through them, refining the dantians and increasing the energy in them. I don’t think dantians naturally function unless some very specific disentanglement and construction first takes place.

 

I do agree that at a certain point, when ego is fully visible and ida and pingala are fully balanced, that the dynamic changes, and ego and mind are able to defer to the Higher Self. But there is nothing in me that imagines this point is possible at the beginning of a spiritual path, as far as I am concerned clearing mud and shit and ego and karma is inevitably a lengthy process that can’t be magicked away by a premature change in mental perception, no matter how satisfying (to the ego) that changed perception may be. 

Edited July 13, 2016 by Bindi

[Jetsun]

My understanding is that you can produce energetic development through effort and practice,and this energetic development is helpful down the line to help cope with the influx of energy due to awakening. Also a certain amount of the samskaras can be cleared through correct discipline which is why there is always quite a high level of discipline involved in most traditional paths such as yogic and monkhood.

 

Yet these things aren't necessarily a direct precursor for awakening, they may be helpful but there is no specific linear path where you do this and get this result. Rather as one of the people I went on retreat with recently said doing things like working on your energy body and issues is like doing all the little things you can to get a promotion at work, you do what you can to put yourself in the best position possible so you are a strong candidate, which increases your chances but is no guarantee, sometimes someone who has done no preparation or work at all will get it instead.

[Bud Jetsun]

If thought and action are chosen from appreciation and compassion, energy will reflect this.

 

If thought and actions are chosen from fear and discontent, energy will reflect this as well.

 

Unlimited Love,

-Bud