why fear enlightenment since it's inevitable?

[Jetsun]

If thought and action are chosen from appreciation and compassion, energy will reflect this.

 

If thought and actions are chosen from fear and discontent, energy will reflect this as well.

 

Unlimited Love,

-Bud

As far as my experience goes thoughts just happen, if I sit here now I don't have any control or choice over what thoughts enter my awareness. Apparently at a very high level of mastery you can choose thought and emotion, some way for me to go to get there though.

[Bindi]

My understanding is that you can produce energetic development through effort and practice,and this energetic development is helpful down the line to help cope with the influx of energy due to awakening. Also a certain amount of the samskaras can be cleared through correct discipline which is why there is always quite a high level of discipline involved in most traditional paths such as yogic and monkhood.

 

Yet these things aren't necessarily a direct precursor for awakening, they may be helpful but there is no specific linear path where you do this and get this result. Rather as one of the people I went on retreat with recently said doing things like working on your energy body and issues is like doing all the little things you can to get a promotion at work, you do what you can to put yourself in the best position possible so you are a strong candidate, which increases your chances but is no guarantee, sometimes someone who has done no preparation or work at all will get it instead.

Will get ‘it’, but what are you referring to as ‘it’, awakening? Sure people can suddenly be ‘awakened’ after taking some drugs, or faffing around with kundalini, or just giving up, but I think this instant awakening trend is a turn for the worse as far as authentic spirituality and enlightenment goes. Like a spiritual jackpot, it could just happen to anyone, no need really to do anything, because anyone might be a winner anyway, in fact aren’t some people recommending our best chance is to actually do nothing?

[Jetsun]

Will get ‘it’, but what are you referring to as ‘it’, awakening? Sure people can suddenly be ‘awakened’ after taking some drugs, or faffing around with kundalini, or just giving up, but I think this instant awakening trend is a turn for the worse as far as authentic spirituality and enlightenment goes. Like a spiritual jackpot, it could just happen to anyone, no need really to do anything, because anyone might be a winner anyway, in fact aren’t some people recommending our best chance is to actually do nothing?

At a certain stage it is best to do nothing, I went to see this guy called Tony Parsons recently in London and he spends an hour telling you that there is absolutely nothing you can do to get enlightened or awakened. Through his teaching a number of students have actually had permanent shifts, but is his teaching useful for the vast majority of people? No I don't think so, but that doesn't mean that it isn't a true teaching, it is just a teaching helpful for a small number of people who are at a specific point.

 

Whereas if you go to see someone like Adyashanti he advocates a lot of practice, the analogy I have heard him use is things like stillness meditation and self enquiry can bring you to the cliff edge, but when you are there there is nothing you can do to make yourself jump, the self protection survival drive is too strong, but if you keep bringing yourself to the edge again and again then you are more likely to get blown over the edge by a "strong wind".

[blue eyed snake]

more likely to get blown over the edge by a "strong wind". 

 

 

that is a nice metaphor, 

 

going further on that, when there is a real gale outthere, you can fall off that cliff even being unaware that there was a cliff.

 

(afterwards clambering back to 'safety' , but with the memory clear in your system)

[Jetsun]

The teaching of do nothing comes from the perspective that enlightenment or awakening is a natural process of human beings but we interfere with it, our minds are constantly doing even in our sleep, sitting around watching TV is still doing, it actually takes incredible energy and effort to put off enlightenment. So if you do nothing, but really do nothing then enlightenment can complete itself, which is why some of the highest teachings in Buddhism and Christianity is just "be still". But doing nothing is also the hardest teaching also, which is why we usually need to do before we can not-do.

[C T]

From a mahayana perspective, the teachers make it very clear that there is only one way to reach the understanding of 'doing nothing' (resting and inactivity which allows real activity to occur without interference from a self), and that is when one comes to a full awareness and realisation of the illusory nature of the self. 

 

Recognising that the self is as dependently arisen as that which needs doing (meaning the objective externalities generally) the seeming divide between subject and object will fall apart, and when it does, activity and non-activity is seen as a unified field. 

 

But i think a lot of people take 'non doing' too literally and just bum around. Thats not it for certain. 

[3bob]

"God" can not stop you from reaching God in an instant, even with mountains of karma and galactic time and space to go through being that Spirit is stronger than any form of magic or methods that would attempt such, for Spirit can not refuse the call or need for Spirit in the beginning, middle or end of working on or with any part of the matrix of form we are in...

[Bindi]

"God" can not stop you from reaching God in an instant, even with mountains of karma and galactic time and space to go through being that Spirit is stronger than any form of magic or methods that would attempt such, for Spirit can not refuse the call or need for Spirit in the beginning, middle or end of working on or with any part of the matrix of form we are in...

 

Do you mean as a momentary experience of God, or instant permanent enlightenment?

[3bob]

a timeless moment that mind can not nail down - for there is not really a linear type of permanent time with that,

yet as I meant before that doesn't mean a whole hell of a lot of work can be skipped on the matrix in time and space

[Bud Jetsun]

if I sit here now I don't have any control or choice over what thoughts enter my awareness.

Then who or what does your thinking for you?

 

Is is possible for anyone but oneself to think ones thoughts?

[Jetsun]

Then who or what does your thinking for you?

 

Is is possible for anyone but oneself to think ones thoughts?

 

If you search for the thinker of thoughts you won't find anyone, well I don't, let me know if you come up with any different. 

 

But there is no need to go too deep into this, just sit and close your eyes for a few minutes and tell me that you are in control of every thought which enters your mind. Do you even have any idea what the next thought will be? Sit for half an hour and you will become aware of hundreds of thoughts all which are out of your conscious control.

[3bob]

if you search for the observer of thought you will find someone very deep

[Tibetan_Ice]

if you search for the observer of thought you will find someone very deep

 

And if you go beyond that deep someone, surprise surprise, there was nobody there.

[Orion]

You won't get anything out of enlightenment. There's no reward, no prize waiting. It's anti-climactic, kind of the biggest sham and let down ever. If you're trying to become enlightened so that you can get something, you might as well go into finance. There's nowhere to  "arrive at", nowhere to go.

 

Enlightenment is a lot of internal work and often tooth-grinding death-like pain, with no result but emptiness.

 

All you're doing is emptying a vessel of what is unreal. There is no attainment or final objective. And what you're left with, what is real, is completely valueless.

Edited July 14, 2016 by Orion

[3bob]

completely beyond any and all 'worldly type' value, or priceless beyond any comparison, for instance freedom and truth of Brahman.

Edited July 14, 2016 by 3bob

[Bindi]

You won't get anything out of enlightenment. There's no reward, no prize waiting. It's anti-climactic, kind of the biggest sham and let down ever. If you're trying to become enlightened so that you can get something, you might as well go into finance. There's nowhere to  "arrive at", nowhere to go.

 

Enlightenment is a lot of internal work and often tooth-grinding death-like pain, with no result but emptiness.

 

All you're doing is emptying a vessel of what is unreal. There is no attainment or final objective. And what you're left with, what is real, is completely valueless.

 

Your post does read as though you know this from experience.

 

Is it just ‘enlightnment’ that is valueless to you, or any spiritual goal, for example conception and development of the golden embryo, or Sat-Chit-Ananda?

[3bob]

Orion, for a Buddhist sounding statement I'd say that was not Right speech, as in acting like a sarcastic A-hole.

 

Remember there is the Buddha's teaching on the subject, as in "Wonder of Wonders"

Edited July 14, 2016 by 3bob

[Orion]

Not being sarcastic at all.

[dawei]

I find the process of disentangling ego from Self to be an uncluttering process with at least the possibility of 'enlightenment' at the end of this exact path (whether or not enlightenment will be achieved) and with no intermediate stage of 'awakening' necessary.  

 

Disentanglement leads to disentanglement... definitely an uncluttering process... and necessary for disentitlement.

 

While I tend to agree with the generic view of attempting to 'engineer enlightenment', that is a retro-reflection.

 

Every path has its way and I would encourage everyone to just find that inner path.  

[Bindi]

Disentanglement leads to disentanglement... definitely an uncluttering process... and necessary for disentitlement.

 

While I tend to agree with the generic view of attempting to 'engineer enlightenment', that is a retro-reflection.

 

Every path has its way and I would encourage everyone to just find that inner path.  

 

I engineer climbing the mountain, and maybe it will still be engineering when I get to the top and sit still there, deliberately learning how to not speak, to not move, to not look to the left or the right and to not respond. 

 

But right now, ego is my enemy, and I’m not taking my eyes off ego for a second.

 

The question I would put to the anti-engineers is how much hidden ego have they now invested in their self-assured spiritual superiority, which has to be one of ego's best disguises.

[3bob]

pretty tough to keep an eye on our own ego's without expert help that can see through them...

 

in the meantime I'd say ego should act like a noble sergeant as best it can and try to keep all the various unhealthy parts of itself in order, for a relatively healthy and functional ego in the world has its place    

Edited July 15, 2016 by 3bob

[Jim D.]

An associate of mine has said many times that the ego only has two purposes, "to hurt or be hurt."

Edited July 15, 2016 by Jim D.

[Bindi]

pretty tough to keep an eye on our own ego's without expert help that can see through them...

 

in the meantime I'd say ego should act like a noble sergeant as best it can and try to keep all the various unhealthy parts of itself in order, for a relatively healthy and functional ego in the world has its place    

 

Ramana seemed to think it was possible, I think it's possible, I wouldn't say it is easy though. FWIW I think that ego as we know it when fully perceived and disentangled and denatured is itself reformed into something beautiful and spiritual that then serves the higher Self. And I think then is the time to learn to sit still. 

Edited July 15, 2016 by Bindi

[3bob]

I don't know about that but at some point ego dies, or the energy that was passing through it or was being used is finally cut off .

[Bud Jetsun]

And if you go beyond that deep someone, surprise surprise, there was nobody there.

The ego has precisely as many tricks as you know of at its disposal to reinforce the illusion there is only ego. Defeating it's tricks can't be done with more tricks, because it already knows the trick if you are able to try it.

 

For most, they will not find a moment outside egos illusionary/delusionary realm until merciful death when the body/mind illusion collapses.

 

To collapse the illusion while still alive takes some incredible effort and bravery, more so than Orions fair description.

 

What remains is not nothing or no one, but a timeless everywhere, everything, everyone. A completeness of unfiltered raw experience unfathomably beautiful and unmistakable as one's foundational timeless being.

 

Unlimited Love,

-Bud

Edited July 15, 2016 by Bud Jetsun