the origin of "illusion"

[3bob]

is a mis-perception and or mis-conception in my book, being that ultimately there is only the total reality of all things and no-thing per a full and complete perception 

[Marblehead]

But still, illusions and delusions exist in the mind of man, do they not?

 

If yes then from where do they come from?

[3bob]

the mind of man is an instrument or device which includes a very great range of perception and conception but not the full range beyond duality...

[Marblehead]

Okay.

 

I would agree, we are very limited in regard to non-dualistic awareness.

[3bob]

its a good thing that with some of us being like blind ground-hogs that we can find an acorn now and then ;-)  btw. it's tougher on an older ground-hog like myself who is kind of slow climbing out of hole in the morning . 

Edited July 10, 2016 by 3bob

[Junko]

Mankind is illusion?

[silent thunder]

Nicely put 3bob.

 

I'd say illusions don't truly exist and thus have no origin.

But, pushing my semantic self aside, if pressed, I'd say that the experience of them originate in our senses and our mind's subsequent interpretation of our senses via thoughts.

 

Qualifier in that... I don't consider thoughts to be real either, so hence, no origin for me.

[3bob]

well a thought is also an energy form or form of energy thus such are relatively real in time and space where they originate via their  construction with and in mind.  So do we say they are illusions or also part of the totality of all energy that is connected to Mystery...  the Mystery which btw seems more like an illusion to the mind which can not perceive it  

[Marblehead]

Mankind is illusion?

Some say it is.  I don't hold to that understanding.  We are real.  (Objective)  But we may not be what we think we are.  (Subjective)

[Marblehead]

well a thought is also an energy form or form of energy thus such are relatively real in time and space where they originate via their  construction with and in mind.  So do we say they are illusions or also part of the totality of all energy that is connected to Mystery...  the Mystery which btw seems more like an illusion to the mind which can not perceive it  

I have to agree with you here.  Energy is real.  Yeah, I don't get many people willing to talk with me about Mystery.  In fact, it's hard for me to talk about it as it is a mystery.  But if viewed as "potential" then we have something we can talk about.

[3bob]

ok, and further definition's about potential could be in order, for instance does Mystery already and always exist or does it have the potential to exist given certain circumstance's which would be the close to the normal meaning or usage of the word potential?  For me No-thing or Mystery already and always exists but not in the normal way that we think of or perceive existence, otherwise we would all be screwed - that is if we even existed in the normal way that we think of existence...thus the meaning of potential along these lines or in this context means more like Mystery being able to manifest as much as possible in an energetic universe per cycles and ways yet it also returns to un-manifest, although it never really left or went anywhere.(hehe)

Edited July 11, 2016 by 3bob

[Marblehead]

Yeah, you just went into Mystery.  Hehehe.

 

My understanding at this point in time:  The Manifest universe is a sub-set of the entire universe (Karl's universe).  That is, the Manifest is a sub-set of Mystery.  The rest of Mystery, that is, Karl's universe, is potential.  This is to say that it may manifest into an untold number of things or, it may just remain mystery (undefined energy; dark matter and dark energy).

 

In my understanding Mystery (Karl's total universe) has always existed and will always exist.  But it does take different form over time.  That is, from Mystery (undefined energy) to manifest and a return to Mystery.  Those aspects of Mystery we call Manifest are the Ten Thousand things and we can talk about them.  We can observe the processes and generalize that the "entire" universe operates this way.  Yeah, creation and destruction.

 

I don't have an opinion as to whether "all" of Mystery could ever become Manifest.  But I doubt it.

 

Yes, we can speak of potential (Mystery) simply by looking at the Manifest and assuming that Mystery functions in a like manner.  Therefore if we look at the potential of the Ten Thousand Things as an example of the entire universe then the limits of what is possible would be undefinable.  Likely far greater than most of us could ever imagine.

 

And yes, the cycles of creation and destruction would suggest that all Manifest eventually returns to Mystery.  Almost like reincarnation but not because once any of the Ten Thousand Things returns to Mystery it once again becomes undefined just as it was prior to being manifest.

 

And true, it really never returns because it never went anywhere.  The Manifest is always a sub-set of Mystery so it is within the bounds of the entire universe.  (Yeah, I know, the universe has no bounds but that's beside the point.)

[3bob]

MH, cool man...

[Direwolf]

It's quite possible that our reality is an illusion, it's definitely been said that our perception of it can be. I mean, our eyes are merely optical receptors, and our brain is interpreting the information. One person may see green and another red, are either wrong? No, to both of them they are correct from their own view point.

[Marblehead]

Well, try walking through a closed door and your visions of reality being an illusion will quickly be shattered.  And so will your nose, which is real, not an illusion.

[3bob]

but an energy double of the physical can walk through said door if the frequency is correct... since all the door is - is energy also at a certain frequency and or density.  not that big of a mystery really. 

Edited July 12, 2016 by 3bob

[Marblehead]

but an energy double of the physical can walk through said door if the frequency is correct... since all the door is - is energy also at a certain frequency and or density.  not that big of a mystery really. 

 

That's only theory.  Ain't never happened yet.  Some theories are very much like many illusions.

[3bob]

MH,  Chap 42 TTC. "only no-thing can enter into no space"  Lao Tzu  (same idea but at the Mystery level)

[Marblehead]

MH,  Chap 42 TTC. "only no-thing can enter into no space"  Lao Tzu  (same idea but at the Mystery level)

That is Chapter 43:  (Henricks)

 

1. The softest, most pliable thing in the world runs roughshod over the firmest things in the world.

2. That which has no substance gets into that which has no spaces or cracks.

3. I therefore know that there is benefit in taking no action.

4. The wordless teaching, the benefit of taking no action—

5. Few in the world can realize these!

 

And it is true, water moisture has no substance yet it can penetrate things that appear to be solid.

 

But you and I are not water moisture.  We can't do things that water can.

 

But yes, we can remain in the state of wu wei and take no action.

 

However, we still will not be able to walk through a closed door.  Gotta' take action and open it first.

 

[3bob]

actually we as Sprit can do much more than water can... 

[Marblehead]

actually we as Sprit can do much more than water can... 

 

Funny.  I never expected that response.

 

Illusions and delusions can cause a person to believe they can do that as well.

 

Just don't be trying to fly off a ten story building rooftop though.  While I'm sure the decent would be inspiring the sudden stop at the end of the fall will really mess you up.

[dwai]

I once saw my teacher walking through walls, checking on his students once at 3:30 in the AM (we were all attending a seminar in hotel rooms adjacent to each other)

 

Now you might say I'm a dreamer, but I was wide awake then...  

 

Well, try walking through a closed door and your visions of reality being an illusion will quickly be shattered.  And so will your nose, which is real, not an illusion.

[Marblehead]

 

Now you might say I'm a dreamer, but I was wide awake then...

 

And totally drunk out of your mind.

 

 

Edit to add:  Well, maybe if the walls were paper as in Japan and your teacher was drunk out of their mind.

Edited July 13, 2016 by Marblehead

[dwai]

And totally drunk out of your mind.

 

 

Edit to add: Well, maybe if the walls were paper as in Japan and your teacher was drunk out of their mind.

if only...but the mind is literally the only hurdle to altering our reality. Once we realize we are not our mind, the limits start to dissolve.

[3bob]

out of your or the mind - you may be on to something there MH...