Hello, Introductions and eager to learn.

[Pilgrim]

Hello. Coming from the Kriya traditions. Have learned from different teachers in person all teach many good things and different things. Have been given permission and taught to teach and initiate others but do not.

 

The reason I do not teach or initiate is the same reason for arriving here.

 

From the practice of Kriya development occurred to be certain. In time the practices took on a new dimension that led to researching what was happening as no one and I mean no one knew what I was asking about.

 

Research revealed that the effects experienced were most like what is described in the six yogas of Naropa without all of the elaborate visualization. In other words all the things the visualization engenders without the visualization props to become more and more subtle.

 

More research shows the similarity between certain higher Kriyas of certain Kriya traditions but where the Kriya traditions stop the Tibetan practices seem to continue.

 

The Tibetain traditions however appear to fizzle out also and the practices still remain trapped in the crown chakra even after the blending and mixing is done.

 

It seems to me returning the drops to the crown is something of an incomplete practice. The similarities and out growth into the practices of DAOist traditions seem to more complete but there are many different paths or so it seems from the outside. Currently in research mode education appreciated.

 

Thank you.

[Marblehead]

Hello Pilgrim, and welcome.

 

Your membership is approved and we're happy you found your way to us. We look forward to accompanying you on some of the way that you still have to go.

 

Please take the time to read the two posts pinned at the top of this Welcome page and take a look at the forum terms and rules. This covers all you need to know when getting started.

 

For the first week you will be restricted to ten posts per day but after that you can post as much as you like. Also, until you’ve posted fifteen times in the forums, you’ll be a “Junior Bum” with somewhat restricted access and will be allowed only two private messages per day.

 

Good luck in your pursuits and best wishes to you,

 

Marblehead and the TDB team

 

 

Hi Pilgrim,

 

My thoughts while reading your post was that you might want to research the "state of Wu", that is, "Wu Wei".  It is possible to lose your body if you can attain this state.  Then the body would do only what it needs to do, naturally.

 

You are welcome to jump right in ongoing discussions, revive an older thread, start a new thread of your own, or start a discussion in the "Newcomer Corner" sub-forms to expand on your introduction or ask general questions to help you get started.

 

May you enjoy your time here.

 

Marblehead

[Pilgrim]

Hello Pilgrim, and welcome.

 

Your membership is approved and we're happy you found your way to us. We look forward to accompanying you on some of the way that you still have to go.

 

Please take the time to read the two posts pinned at the top of this Welcome page and take a look at the forum terms and rules. This covers all you need to know when getting started.

 

For the first week you will be restricted to ten posts per day but after that you can post as much as you like. Also, until you’ve posted fifteen times in the forums, you’ll be a “Junior Bum” with somewhat restricted access and will be allowed only two private messages per day.

 

Good luck in your pursuits and best wishes to you,

 

Marblehead and the TDB team

 

 

Hi Pilgrim,

 

My thoughts while reading your post was that you might want to research the "state of Wu", that is, "Wu Wei".  It is possible to lose your body if you can attain this state.  Then the body would do only what it needs to do, naturally.

 

You are welcome to jump right in ongoing discussions, revive an older thread, start a new thread of your own, or start a discussion in the "Newcomer Corner" sub-forms to expand on your introduction or ask general questions to help you get started.

 

May you enjoy your time here.

 

Marblehead

Hello and thank you for a warm welcome.

 

Would you have any good links for Wu Wei ?

 

What is meant by loosing the body? Are you referring to the state of Pratyahara?

[Marblehead]

Hello and thank you for a warm welcome.

 

Would you have any good links for Wu Wei ?

 

What is meant by loosing the body? Are you referring to the state of Pratyahara?

You are welcome.

 

No links off the top of this old brain.  We here have a number of threads on the topic.  This would be a good starting point, getting a large variety of understandings, and then a web search would purify the input you already have.

 

I had to look "Pratyahara" up in Wiki as I don't speak Buddhese.  Based on what was presented I have to say, No, "losing the body" is not like Pratyahara.  In the state of Wu Wei we still have awareness of sensual input but our mind does not hold to any of the input or cause thought based on the input.

 

This is why it is said that the Sage can spring forth with the might of a dragon (tiger) or remain like the ashes of a spent fire.  If any action results from the input the action is totally spontaneous, without thought, and without intent.

[Pilgrim]

" Loosing the body" Ah yes this is what occurs as a side effect or after effect of Kriya Practices.

 

This takes quite a while to adjust to when plans need to be made. Often I find it is best just to put the issue at hand out there and let it just come to me by giving it a quick focus. My current state of awareness is lucid and present but not fully engaged with any one thing and time has a way of slipping past very swiftly.

 

Those in close proximity to me also comment where has the day gone why is time passing so fast. This is odd but just the way it is. Why this is I do not know without delving into odd speculation.

 

Please forgive the references to other ways especially systematic dogmatic methodologies as they are all I have to work with as a point of reference.

 

Let me explain more about my path perhaps someone will say here based upon what you have shared this is a good step, not having shared enough it makes it difficult for someone to know where I am coming from.

 

Kriya was not something I decided looked good because I read a book and decided ah yes supernatural abilities, Self Realization etc... etc.. Belief this belief that was the goal.

 

What happened here was the internal energies moved on their own, this led to research, this led to discovery, this led to experience this led to disgust with all manner of organized anything.

 

In the beginning I chose what I thought was the most free from trappings and formal involvement way of sitting for inner exploration I thought was possible. ZEN as in sitting ZEN or ZAZEN.

 

This ZAZEN of letting things happen turned out to not be so good. Within a short time many energetic experiences that got out of control occurred all starting from simple counting of 1 to 10 while focused on the Hara and letting mind drop. Bliss was present for certain and very pleasant feelings in the body that nothing can rival, but there was pain to follow.

 

This led to more formalized methods of practices with a methodology of purification and guidance of the energy. = Kriya Yoga.

 

This research via practice took years but the energy flows were managed not because there was a desire to be in control or guide anything really. The reason was simple to  allow the mind to be still and natural. Once mind dropped however so did the filters to the tremendous energies we all have within.

 

The end result appears to have been that the nadis required a sufficient clearing so energy is not so disruptive. A pathway into the core of the Sushumna needed to be etched so the energy could flow freely into the centers.

 

Kriya was not a needed belief system, not a goal but a tool. A set of technologies but they have run their course.

 

If one cares to name the different hallmarks and stages reported by the Kriya Yogis then yes I can affirm they have been experienced things like the state without a heartbeat, Kechari Mudra forming naturally entering the star within the circle which leads to the realization of a super luminous realm and body which may be  something of a 20 to 30 year old mature form of what was once an embryonic body of energy that ones consciousness / awareness when fully developed may inhabit as the next stage of ones evolution or perhaps in in a standby mode awaiting corporeal death but they are a dead end in and of themselves.

 

It is nice to visit New York City but when you return it is just a memory with knowledge of certain things and speculations about others.

 

Eventually things like the blending of the masculine and the feminine energies started happening on their own in an unpredictable fashion haphazard fashion.

 

If I recall this is called the savage woman in Tibetan parlance.

 

There are certain practices of Tummo where one envisions a consort.

 

In my case there was / is no need the consort took / takes her position during practice quite naturally when the energies are just so, as a byproduct of practices.

 

This led to trying to discover what was going on. The closest analogy was in a book covering the six Yogas of Naropa.

 

Oddly theses traditions depend very heavily on elaborate visualization.

 

With myself all of the inner is already happening without need to direct or guide through elaborate visualization. Guiding can all be done via intent of will coupled with feeling.

 

Chi, Prana or energy whatever one wishes to call it does not require visualization for one to know it is real. You feel it and know it is real with subtle mind you guide it, yes breath can be a help and a good crutch but even that is not needed except while going through the stages of becoming more subtle in a routine of practices.

 

The practice of Vase Breathing and Tummo are very easy to comprehend and are indeed a missing piece that Kriya never fulfilled. Like Kriya however the practice leads to the crown chakra. (Another dead end or so it seems unless it is meant to be a gradual process of development there?)

 

This has led to more research as somewhere there must be a more completed system and it appears the DAO based systems of energy have a better grasp of working with Chi.

 

I still have no idea what the end goal of this is or where it is even supposed to lead but a few things are certain there is a reason why this is a reoccurring theme in so many cultures over so many centuries.

 

The reason I am here is to ask is what is the purpose? I have no martial aspirations, no desire to set paper on fire or shock people as I have seen in some videos recently, becoming a healer is not likely, nor is becoming a teacher because the things I know require a student like myself to comprehend and a teacher that has gone where I have yet to tread and until then that puts me pretty far away from being a teacher or having any desire to teach.

 

To the best of my ability to conceive it appears the energy is transforming, the question is transforming into what?

 

Yes a calm mind and emotions are good. Yes being present without thought and reaction and invested in emotional turmoil are good, yes living in the now without being victimized by preconceived this is the way things are and this thing is like that and I guess what I am trying to say a world view that is codependent upon a subject object relationship for validity is all good but it is a bit of a vacuum and an intermediary stage or so it feels.

 

I have read that some practice to become a Buddha what ever that is.

 

I have read some practice to develop an Immortal body which for the life of me I can not figure out why anyone would want to be immortal.

 

That leaves the third option which may be the same as the first. "Becoming a Buddha." Not even sure what that means but suspect it may be the same as fulfilling the purpose of human life by transforming (pardon the over used example) from a Caterpillar into a Butterfly.

 

If this is the case then it would seem to be a good reason to explore and be all one can be. Do any of the DAO systems of working with energy cause a changing, maturing evolutionary, process to take place?

 

It seems to me that for one to move on one has to honor the blending of the masculine and the feminine and become Gender Complete. It also occurs to me allot of the DAOist energy work is about this.

 

Help and direction appreciated.

 

Thank you very much.

Edited July 11, 2016 by Pilgrim

[Marblehead]

Hi Pilgrim,

 

You did well explaining yourself.

 

Personally, I don't have a practice, as such.  I do involve myself in "empty-minded meditation" on occasion but that's about as far as I go.

 

Yes, harmony between Yin and Yang.  In my opinion we really don't need "balance" as such because everything is constantly changing so balance is constantly being thrown off.

 

I think I have gone about as far as I can with this.  Hopefully some of our Taoist practitioners will get involved in this with you and perhaps they will be able to offer you some guidance.

 

I suppose defining your expectations would be important.  Then question them to be able to judge if they are realistic or just wishful thinking.  Then find a practice that states it can guide you there.  But buyer beware.  All advertising is not true.  And, all practices will not work with everyone.  Being special and unique we might need a special and unique practice.

 

Best wishes to you along your journey.

[RiverSnake]

Welcome to TTB. 

[Tibetan_Ice]

" Loosing the body" Ah yes this is what occurs as a side effect or after effect of Kriya Practices.

 

This takes quite a while to adjust to when plans need to be made. Often I find it is best just to put the issue at hand out there and let it just come to me by giving it a quick focus. My current state of awareness is lucid and present but not fully engaged with any one thing and time has a way of slipping past very swiftly.

 

Those in close proximity to me also comment where has the day gone why is time passing so fast. This is odd but just the way it is. Why this is I do not know without delving into odd speculation.

 

Please forgive the references to other ways especially systematic dogmatic methodologies as they are all I have to work with as a point of reference.

 

Let me explain more about my path perhaps someone will say here based upon what you have shared this is a good step, not having shared enough it makes it difficult for someone to know where I am coming from.

 

Kriya was not something I decided looked good because I read a book and decided ah yes supernatural abilities, Self Realization etc... etc.. Belief this belief that was the goal.

 

What happened here was the internal energies moved on their own, this led to research, this led to discovery, this led to experience this led to disgust with all manner of organized anything.

 

In the beginning I chose what I thought was the most free from trappings and formal involvement way of sitting for inner exploration I thought was possible. ZEN as in sitting ZEN or ZAZEN.

 

This ZAZEN of letting things happen turned out to not be so good. Within a short time many energetic experiences that got out of control occurred all starting from simple counting of 1 to 10 while focused on the Hara and letting mind drop. Bliss was present for certain and very pleasant feelings in the body that nothing can rival, but there was pain to follow.

 

This led to more formalized methods of practices with a methodology of purification and guidance of the energy. = Kriya Yoga.

 

This research via practice took years but the energy flows were managed not because there was a desire to be in control or guide anything really. The reason was simple to allow the mind to be still and natural. Once mind dropped however so did the filters to the tremendous energies we all have within.

 

The end result appears to have been that the nadis required a sufficient clearing so energy is not so disruptive. A pathway into the core of the Sushumna needed to be etched so the energy could flow freely into the centers.

 

Kriya was not a needed belief system, not a goal but a tool. A set of technologies but they have run their course.

 

If one cares to name the different hallmarks and stages reported by the Kriya Yogis then yes I can affirm they have been experienced things like the state without a heartbeat, Kechari Mudra forming naturally entering the star within the circle which leads to the realization of a super luminous realm and body which may be something of a 20 to 30 year old mature form of what was once an embryonic body of energy that ones consciousness / awareness when fully developed may inhabit as the next stage of ones evolution or perhaps in in a standby mode awaiting corporeal death but they are a dead end in and of themselves.

 

It is nice to visit New York City but when you return it is just a memory with knowledge of certain things and speculations about others.

 

Eventually things like the blending of the masculine and the feminine energies started happening on their own in an unpredictable fashion haphazard fashion.

 

If I recall this is called the savage woman in Tibetan parlance.

 

There are certain practices of Tummo where one envisions a consort.

 

In my case there was / is no need the consort took / takes her position during practice quite naturally when the energies are just so, as a byproduct of practices.

 

This led to trying to discover what was going on. The closest analogy was in a book covering the six Yogas of Naropa.

 

Oddly theses traditions depend very heavily on elaborate visualization.

 

With myself all of the inner is already happening without need to direct or guide through elaborate visualization. Guiding can all be done via intent of will coupled with feeling.

 

Chi, Prana or energy whatever one wishes to call it does not require visualization for one to know it is real. You feel it and know it is real with subtle mind you guide it, yes breath can be a help and a good crutch but even that is not needed except while going through the stages of becoming more subtle in a routine of practices.

 

The practice of Vase Breathing and Tummo are very easy to comprehend and are indeed a missing piece that Kriya never fulfilled. Like Kriya however the practice leads to the crown chakra. (Another dead end or so it seems unless it is meant to be a gradual process of development there?)

 

This has led to more research as somewhere there must be a more completed system and it appears the DAO based systems of energy have a better grasp of working with Chi.

 

I still have no idea what the end goal of this is or where it is even supposed to lead but a few things are certain there is a reason why this is a reoccurring theme in so many cultures over so many centuries.

 

The reason I am here is to ask is what is the purpose? I have no martial aspirations, no desire to set paper on fire or shock people as I have seen in some videos recently, becoming a healer is not likely, nor is becoming a teacher because the things I know require a student like myself to comprehend and a teacher that has gone where I have yet to tread and until then that puts me pretty far away from being a teacher or having any desire to teach.

 

To the best of my ability to conceive it appears the energy is transforming, the question is transforming into what?

 

Yes a calm mind and emotions are good. Yes being present without thought and reaction and invested in emotional turmoil are good, yes living in the now without being victimized by preconceived this is the way things are and this thing is like that and I guess what I am trying to say a world view that is codependent upon a subject object relationship for validity is all good but it is a bit of a vacuum and an intermediary stage or so it feels.

 

I have read that some practice to become a Buddha what ever that is.

 

I have read some practice to develop an Immortal body which for the life of me I can not figure out why anyone would want to be immortal.

 

That leaves the third option which may be the same as the first. "Becoming a Buddha." Not even sure what that means but suspect it may be the same as fulfilling the purpose of human life by transforming (pardon the over used example) from a Caterpillar into a Butterfly.

 

If this is the case then it would seem to be a good reason to explore and be all one can be. Do any of the DAO systems of working with energy cause a changing, maturing evolutionary, process to take place?

 

It seems to me that for one to move on one has to honor the blending of the masculine and the feminine and become Gender Complete. It also occurs to me allot of the DAOist energy work is about this.

 

Help and direction appreciated.

 

Thank you very much.

Welcome to the forum.

 

You have a mentality of transformation.

You see things in terms of becoming, developing, creating, which is tantra.

You still appear to have an identity and that identity is becoming bewildered. This is good.

You need to get down to the root and realize that your essence is projecting your reality, not by transformation, but by reversing or tracing the flow back to the source in order to gain wisdom.

The wisdom will set you free.

You are very ripe for Dzogchen.

Have you ever read "Buddhahood Without Meditation"?

https://www.amazon.com/Buddhahood-without-Meditation-Lingpas-Visions-ebook/dp/B01G2DD4PG/ref=tmm_kin_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr=

 

Or "Heart of the Great Perfection?

 

https://www.amazon.com/Heart-Great-Perfection-Lingpas-Visions-ebook/dp/B01AS3WJRK/ref=tmm_kin_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr=

[Pilgrim]

Tibetan_Ice

 

Thank you for your reply, it has not been ignored, it has just taken time to come to the point of assimilating the weight of the insights offered. Having looked over the Forums and having seen the way you interact with others I am of the opinion you are possessed of keen insight and a sharp tongue.

 

The sharpness of the replies read however was backed by being correct and actually helpful if one can get over the initial pain and shock.

 

Due to this your reply has stuck and now a question concerning books followed by the topic of Dzogchen.

 

Do you have knowledge of this book and if so may I have your opinion of it? The ones already mentioned will soon be in the library. This one was found by the search term Dzogchen and struck a chord when previewed.

The Crystal And The Way Of Light: Sutra, Tantra And Dzogchen (Tibetan Buddhist Philosophy)

https://www.amazon.com/Crystal-Way-Light-Dzogchen-Philosophy-ebook/dp/B002BNKQ6W/ref=tmm_kin_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1479761450&sr=8-1

 

Lastly for now would you tell in your words about Dzogchen, having read your communications with others and being in a position to validate the things you shared concerning Tummo ( only by direct experience from practice ) it is easy for me to consider what you might share as correct.

 

Thank you,

 

Shared insight is appreciated.