Tolerance, Apathy and the Fall of Civilizations

[Nungali]

Tolerate Nothing, Accept Everything

 

I´m no fan of tolerance.  Tolerance is pouty and passive-agressive, shifty and small-minded.  Tolerance is a grudging putting-up with something we really don´t like at all, usually because we lack the courage to come right out and say what we really think.  When we tolerate something we feel tight, boxed-in -- vaguely victimized. When people say they tolerate screaming babies or gays or women cops, what is it they´re really saying?  I think tolerance is shorthand for "I don´t like it at all but am too polite to say so in mixed company." 

 

Acceptance is so much better. Here there´s an implication that someone has gone through an internal process of coming to terms with something.  As in: "In the past I couldn´t stand being around my mother-in-law, but now I see her as a person with both good and bad qualities and have learned how to enjoy myself around her."  That´s acceptance.

 

There´s openness and freedom in acceptance.  Acceptance doesn´t always imply hearty approval; on the contrary, we can accept something we don´t like at all.  In acceptance there´s this recognition that the world is the way it is, and there´s a readiness to deal with it straight on.  Take violence, for instance.  We´re right to have a "zero-tolerance" policy towards violence in most circumstances.  At the same time, we can accept that there is violence in the world.  Doesn´t mean we like it or approve of it.  Doesn´t mean we´re not doing everything we can to eradicate it.  Acceptance means that we can read the news, openly acknowledge all the bad things happening in the world, and not be immobilized by fear and anger.

 

(PS: The word tolerance often comes up in reference to lesbians and gays.  As a gay man, I´ve no use for tolerance.  If you don´t like me, you might as well come straight out -- pun intended -- and say so.  Political correctness does us no favors driving prejudice underground.  I´d rather by openly hated than secretly despised.  But that´s just me.) 

 

Must be crabby day or something around here ! 

 

 

  ... so much for the kids  and being understanding and tolerating their learning process 

[liminal_luke]

Must be crabby day or something around here ! 

 

 

  ... so much for the kids  and being understanding and tolerating their learning process 

 

[Aetherous]

"Toleration is not the opposite of intolerance, but the counterfeit of it. Both are despotisms: the one assumes to itself the right of withholding liberty of conscience, the other of granting it." - Thomas Paine

[Marblehead]

 again - the violence.

 

Did I miss something in the original post ?  

 

Why has the concept of being tolerant now considered among things we should not be tolerant about and thrown out generally because it somehow got attached to that ? . Is someone arguing we should be tolerant  when we should not be ? 

 

Nungali confused. 

Violence is mentioned because it has become more present in nearly all societies on the planet.  And there are many who tolerate such violence.  If it is tolerated it will continue to happen.  There must be limits as to how a person can behave in society.

 

Tolerance is the cause of the problem, it is not a cure.

[Karl]

"Toleration is not the opposite of intolerance, but the counterfeit of it. Both are despotisms: the one assumes to itself the right of withholding liberty of conscience, the other of granting it." - Thomas Paine

If only I could be so concise.

[Marblehead]

If only I could be so concise.

 

Maybe in your next life.

[Golden Dragon Shining]

"Nice attack: truck driver named as France mourns 84 killed in Bastille Day atrocity" https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2016/jul/14/nice-bastille-day-france-attack-promenade-des-anglais-vehicle

Tolerance doesn't seem to be working out well for France.

~

Declining IQ in France http://drjamesthompson.blogspot.com.au/2015/12/the-puzzle-of-falling-french.html

It takes intelligence to maintain a peaceful and prosperous society.

"Dutton and Lynn report secular declines in Fullscale IQ evaluated using WAIS of four points a decade in France between the years 1999 and 2008–9. It is posited that the trend may have a partially biological cause, stemming from dysgenic fertility and, to a lesser extent, replacement migration. Given that these, and other biological phenomena are associated with the Jensen effect, it is expected that if they are the principal causes of the IQ decline then the secular change should also be associated with the Jensen effect. Furthermore if it can be demonstrated that the vectors of secular IQ decline, g loadings and the vectors of other biological indicators share variance, then the case for biological causation will be strengthened."

~

Tolerance is a mind virus used to erode civilization, to tolerate further degradation and abuses. Deconstructionism, moral relativity and at the same time critical theory (so they say nothing has any meaning and then tell you what is wrong about your culture ha)




To


 
A world losing beauty, dignity, grace, integrity, virility

For what?

 

Edited July 16, 2016 by Sionnach

[Karl]

"Nice attack: truck driver named as France mourns 84 killed in Bastille Day atrocity" https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2016/jul/14/nice-bastille-day-france-attack-promenade-des-anglais-vehicle

Tolerance doesn't seem to be working out well for France.

~

Declining IQ in France http://drjamesthompson.blogspot.com.au/2015/12/the-puzzle-of-falling-french.html

It takes intelligence to maintain a peaceful and prosperous society.

"Dutton and Lynn report secular declines in Fullscale IQ evaluated using WAIS of four points a decade in France between the years 1999 and 2008–9. It is posited that the trend may have a partially biological cause, stemming from dysgenic fertility and, to a lesser extent, replacement migration. Given that these, and other biological phenomena are associated with the Jensen effect, it is expected that if they are the principal causes of the IQ decline then the secular change should also be associated with the Jensen effect. Furthermore if it can be demonstrated that the vectors of secular IQ decline, g loadings and the vectors of other biological indicators share variance, then the case for biological causation will be strengthened."

~

Tolerance is a mind virus used to erode civilization, to tolerate further degradation and abuses. Deconstructionism, moral relativity and at the same time critical theory (so they say nothing has any meaning and then tell you what is wrong about your culture ha)

To

 

A world losing beauty, dignity, grace, integrity, virility

For what?

 

That made me feel very sad. I know this is completely true and in my small way, this is what I fight against. Of necessity my words often come across as severe, because I am totally intolerant of tolerance because, as your post shows, this is precisely where it is leading. To know and to do nothing is tolerance; to see and yet act blind is tolerance; to hear and pretend that you did not hear, that is tolerance. First we must end moral relativism-humility, tolerance, duty or sacrifice are pure evil.

 

The IQ sinks because we are losing our independence and our ability to reason. We have swapped independence for the collective which is driven by media, state school, films, comics, art, music, architecture and books. We banished logic and reason then replaced it with pragmatism and relativism. There is no hope for us if we do not exit this dive. We are trying to make the natural world our master, to act like bees, ants or a stick of celery. It is a slow kind of suicide, we are voluntarily giving up all that makes us so unique in the universe. If there were a God he would be angry, if there were angels they would weep tears of rage.

[blackstar212]

After some thought, I thought about tolerance and the law. When society has made something against the law it is declaring without doubt that there is zero tolerance therefore it is made illegal. So any subject that is illegal is already deemed to be not tolerated in fact it is so not tolerated that you can be arrested for said activity.

 

It is very clear that tolerance has nothing to do with violent crimes as they are not tolerated by any society as they are against the law which is the very opposite of tolerating something.

[Karl]

After some thought, I thought about tolerance and the law. When society has made something against the law it is declaring without doubt that there is zero tolerance therefore it is made illegal. So any subject that is illegal is already deemed to be not tolerated in fact it is so not tolerated that you can be arrested for said activity.

 

It is very clear that tolerance has nothing to do with violent crimes as they are not tolerated by any society as they are against the law which is the very opposite of tolerating something.

what about positive discriminatory laws, or laws to support vested interests, or those that make free speech illegal, censor books, consensual sexual activity, free association, allow unlimited surveillance, or those that can confiscate property, or kidnap people with threat of coercive force ?

[futuredaze]

IMO part of the reason people are so tolerant is because we are so heady - quick to rationalize, intellectualize, everything.

 

So something happens, say an attack by a radical Islamist.  At first we can think, well maybe they were just unstable (partially true, but it is mental health + ideology) or rationalize how "well, statistically things are better now."

 

Then it keeps happening, we notice patterns, but still use intellectualization to justify our belief.  Beliefs are often conditioned by media, by consensus and herd mentality, and by traditions or family.  Eventually, though, things sometimes hit us hard.  Once peoples' more primal emotional centers started to get triggered (e.g. the amygdala), their rationalizations become less important than basic emotions.  In fact, this intensification in emotion often leads to a creation of new belief systems and values.  Either that, or the intense emotions simply re-enforce current beliefs, perhaps even make them stronger.

 

As people get more and more pissed off, they will get more emotional and reactionary.  However this is not a bad thing, since IMO it can lead to new beliefs and new ways of thinking.  The challenge is getting people to bounce back from emotionalism and to act from a stoic place of rationality and equanimity.

 

The sad thing is the powers at be, using the media, seem to know this too.  They are trying to re-shape belief by triggering emotions and controlling narrative.  The whole BLM thing comes to mind, which could have been a legitimate movement but became violent because the media depicts cops as racists, even though very few are statistically.  Intense emotions seems to rupture the psyche so new ideas can be suggested and implanted, for better or worse. As new media begins to replace old media, people will trust mainstream news less and less.  There is a war going on now, but the battlefield more based in ideas and belief systems -- it is a cultural war.

Edited July 18, 2016 by futuredaze

[thelerner]

Too often people preach intolerance until they're the targets, then it considered injustice, because its they are the ones losing rights and being discriminated against.  For me, set up intelligent rules and enforce them.   Tolerate those who aren't infringing on your rights.

 

Unless I'm being attacked in some way, Live and let live seems to be the best way to go about.  The most judgemental tend to be the most unhappy.  Living a life with a cluttered mind and yard stick always in hand, measuring, measuring.  Better to chillax and accept.  Be aware, even wary, if thats where your instinct points.  Not afraid but willing to take actions.

 

A picture above shows the Parthenon, comparing it to a modern apartment complex.  In truth it should compare a modern building complex to the squabble/slum type area the average Roman lived in 2400 years ago (see HBO's Rome for historical view).  To them, the modern building with indoor plumbing, running water, refrigeration would be miraculous, perhaps godlike.  If you wanted to compare the Parthenon with something you'd it to a Church.  Rome has many doozies, quite beautiful, filled with incredible treasures. 

[Karl]

Indiscriminate tolerance is exactly the same as indiscriminate condemnation. That goes to the heart of it. As long as we are free to choose, then moral judgement becomes a necessity. There isn't an easy yardstick for applying moral judgement. It's a tough call trying to sort out evil from good, but it must be done, there is no neutral position that one can take on the subject no matter how remote it might seem. We must act as judges at all times and in every way to call out evil and never to excuse it, nor evade the responsibility of pronouncing judgement. We, each and everyone of us hold this solemn responsibility and that responsibility extends to logically justifying our own judgements.

 

"Judge and prepare to be judged" is the only way to avoid chaos.

 

It is the compromisers that create the problems. Those who see only grey, who say 'do not judge in case you are judged", who believe good and evil cannot be identified and so it is better not to try. It is the slackers, the compromisers, the indiscriminate tolerant that allow evil to flourish so that their own evil is not judged. This is what results in moral decay and the decline of civilisation.

Edited July 18, 2016 by Karl

[Taoist Texts]

 It is very clear that tolerance has nothing to do with violent crimes as they are not tolerated by any society as they are against the law which is the very opposite of tolerating something.

Thats one very faulty logic. Of course they are tolerated - the law notwithstanding. 

 

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It’s not only Germany that covers up mass sex attacks by migrant men... Sweden’s record is shameful

http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/01/its-not-only-germany-that-covers-up-mass-sex-attacks-by-migrant-men-swedens-record-is-shameful/

[Golden Dragon Shining]

Corporate tax minimisation costs governments $US1 trillion says accounting insider

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-07-11/corporate-tax-minimisation-costs-governments-1-trillion/7587092

This is what tolerance is mostly about, to make a global slave class. That architecture/ "modernist" residential building basically slave quarters, "emperor's new clothes", globalization, equality etc all corporate, buy and sell etc, cheap labor, maximize profits at the expense of humanity and environment. People fooled, here is your equality,

Edited July 19, 2016 by Sionnach

[blackstar212]

Examples of acceptance not tolerance there is a reason there are two separate words. When society deems something illegal it is not tolerated. Now individuals and small groups can accept situations if it is beneficial for them. which the above shows an example of.

[Golden Dragon Shining]

Why can't we build on REASON? Logic, positives and negatives of things.
 

[blackstar212]

Reason would be actually following the accepted definition of words such as tolerance and not making up ones own definition to fit their agenda or soapbox speech. Tolerance has a known and accepted definition which I posted a while ago.

[Golden Dragon Shining]

Tolerance

forbearance, toleration, sufferance, liberality, open-mindedness, lack of prejudice, lack of bias, broad-mindedness, liberalism

are given as synonyms for "willingness to tolerate the existence of opinions or behaviour that one dislikes or disagrees with."

-
With taxation, if society didn't tolerate such behavior/ practices it wouldn't exist.
-

Reason
 

the power of the mind to think, understand, and form judgements logically.

"there is a close connection between reason and emotion"

synonyms: rationality, logic, logical thought, scientific thinking, reasoning, thought, cognition;

the mind, intellect, intelligence, intellectuality;

nous;

rareratiocination

 

Edited July 19, 2016 by Sionnach

[Taoist Texts]

Examples of acceptance not tolerance there is a reason there are two separate words 

words do not matter. actions do. of course acceptance is tolerance.

 

A synonym is a word or phrase that means nearly the same as another word or phrase in the same language. Words that are synonyms are said to be synonymous, and the state of being a synonym is called synonymy. The word comes from Ancient Greek syn (σύν) ("with") and onoma (ὄνομα) ("name").

Synonym - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Golden Dragon Shining]

In a groundbreaking study published in the journal Analytical and Bioanalytical Chemistry last year, evidence surfaced that glyphosate, the active ingredient in the Monsanto's patented herbicide Roundup, is flowing freely into the groundwater in areas where it is being applied.¹ The researchers found that 41% of the 140 groundwater samples taken from Catalonia Spain, had levels beyond the limit of quantification – indicating that, despite the manufacturer's claims, glyphosate herbicide does not break down rapidly in the environment, and is accumulating there in concerning quantities.  http://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/gmo-farming-poisoning-worlds-drinking-water

 

 

 

 

Edited July 19, 2016 by Sionnach

[thelerner]

Indiscriminate anything is probably bad.  The world is rarely black and white.  Not to mention pure white can be as much a pain in the ass as black.   I find people who see a mostly black and white are blinded to there own .. greyness because they live in such a binary world.  I'd rather see rules based on pragmatism, skillful means and wisdom then hysterics on the end of civilization and coming moral decay.

 

Hell in my city the trumpet was illegal because it could used for jazz and that was the music of the devil.  Thirty year later it was rock and roll.  I just saw an old photo of a woman dressed from head to toe at the beach, she was arrested for indecency because the outfit was deemed too tight.

 

What I'm getting at is, its okay to have laws to protect people and property, but when people want to create laws based on there idea of often repressive decency, then I opt out. 

 

Karl, I take it you'll bring up.. what about, uh.., people who want to skydive naked without parachutes?  Good strange extremist point there.  I will agree with you that there are extremes that should be guarded against but in general live and let live makes for good living.  Very Taoist too.

[Karl]

Indiscriminate anything is probably bad.  The world is rarely black and white.  Not to mention pure white can be as much a pain in the ass as black.   I find people who see a mostly black and white are blinded to there own .. greyness because they live in such a binary world.  I'd rather see rules based on pragmatism, skillful means and wisdom then hysterics on the end of civilization and coming moral decay.

 

Hell in my city the trumpet was illegal because it could used for jazz and that was the music of the devil.  Thirty year later it was rock and roll.  I just saw an old photo of a woman dressed from head to toe at the beach, she was arrested for indecency because the outfit was deemed too tight.

 

What I'm getting at is, its okay to have laws to protect people and property, but when people want to create laws based on there idea of often repressive decency, then I opt out. 

 

Karl, I take it you'll bring up.. what about, uh.., people who want to skydive naked without parachutes?  Good strange extremist point there.  I will agree with you that there are extremes that should be guarded against but in general live and let live makes for good living.  Very Taoist too.

I'm not bringing up anything and have no idea what you are suggesting. I'm saying there are no greys, that a pragmatic approach ultimately leads to a busted civilisation because it suggests man cannot be moral. If you begin with the pragmatic approach you are automatically accepting immorality. People that want things to be morally grey are evading their own morals, they like certain things to be a bit foggy so that their own activities cannot easily be judged. That's where your 'live and let live' is heading. Yet I am not suggesting moralising, which is an irrational indiscriminate kind of moral application. I'm saying that you can definitely determine what's in the evil pile and what isn't. I'm certainly not talking about making laws against nakedness, tight dresses or the like.

 

Once you get into compromise you can guarantee that at some point blood will start flowing. Take the Nice tragedy. The guy wasn't religious, he was an alcoholic, a wife beater and known for petty violence against members of the public. The result of tolerance, pragmatism, live and let live, is 80 dead. No one stopped this man, not the law, not his wife, not his friends, no one spoke out, and the result was needless death. Everyone wants to 'support' or 'empathise' or 'apologise' for the guys behaviour, he gets excused his behaviour instead of being confronted. A man that behaves violently and irrationally has lost all claim to any rights, he is nothing more than an animal to be put behind bars for safety.

[Taoist Texts]

  The world is rarely black and white.  Not to mention pure white can be as much a pain in the ass as black.   I find people who see a mostly black and white are blinded to there own .. greyness because they live in such a binary world.   

 

 

 

yeah about that ...

[Golden Dragon Shining]

Judaism/ Christianity is a significant cause of the neuroticism thelerner describes.

neuroticism = anxiety, fear, moodiness, worry, envy, frustration, jealousy, and loneliness



~

Previously Pagan Europe was natural, healthy, strong, they celebrated the human form. See the many naked statues. It was graceful.

Christians destroying Pagan art. Similar to radical Islam today?



Christians cutting down Pagan sacred trees. Humorous as ideas like, equality/ the brotherhood of man, tolerance, love your neighbor, resist not evil... (haha) have their roots in Christianity. It seems like they taught tolerance simply to give themselves space to infiltrate and destroy. You welcome them and they stab you in the back, we see this playing out in Europe now ha..



We go from oppressive Jewish/ Christian/ Islamic religions to extremely Liberal (something being free doesn't necessarily make it good, say the liberal/ without restraint consumption of alcohol, cigarettes, junk food etc) reactions. Neither are healthy.  I am not for black/ white/ grey, just what is healthy, natural.
 

Edited July 20, 2016 by Sionnach